Intermittent Failure to Extract??

S

Slowshot

Member
I have recently been experiencing occasional failures of my extractor to pick up spent brass for extraction.

Here are a few details:
1. My action is a left handed BAT SB, with a Krieger barrel.
2. The rifle is chambered in 222 Remington.
3. All of my 500 pieces of Lapua brass were purchased in a single lot.
4. I keep my brass separated in 50 round boxes. I shoot each box, recording the number of times that set of 50 has been used.
5. I fire form my brass, neck size it, shoot it once more and then need to full length size with a body die before neck sizing and using it again.
6. None of my brass has been fired more than four times.

Recently different pieces of brass that are in the same lot of 50, will act differently in the rifle. While shooting a few days ago, I had several failures to extract. When I got home, I de-capped, neck sized, full length sized cleaned, dried and trimmed the entire box of brass that had given me intermittent failures to extract. Then I cycled the entire 50 through my rifle, with the rifle clamped to my cleaning vise. Eight of the 50 were not picked up by the extractor. I could feel and hear a slight difference when the extractor failed. A tiny click did not happen that I could hear when the extractor did work.

Next, I took a clean cloth and carefully wiped the brass that would not extract and tried it again. It still failed to extract. Then I measured the brass at several places along the body and neck for diameter. Having just trimmed, all were the same length. Comparing those measurements with the brass that does extract, I could find no differences.

If an entire lot of 50 was failing, I could understand that. If I could find measurable differences within the lot of 50, I could understand that. If I did not take proper care of my bolt and chamber, I could understand that. As is, I am stumped. All I need is to have such failures during a match to ruin my day.

I would appreciate any suggestions as to where I look next.
 
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If the loads are mild, the fit of the extractor on the rim very close, and the shoulder bump excessive, the case may not come back into hard contact with the bolt face, and the rim will be too far forward for the extractor to over ride it to the point where it hooks it.
 
Remove your firing pin assembly and without a case in the bolt, check and see if the bolt will move fore and aft with the bolt closed. I'd guess that there isn't enough clearance between the end of the bolt and the coned breech of the barrel if it's a coned bolt and it's not letting the extractor pop over the case. If it's a flat bolt nose, then there may not be enough clearance between the end of the bolt nose and the end of the barrel tenon. If the sako extractor hits the end of the barrel, it may keep the bolt from extracting. I've also seen this happen when the shoulder has been set back too far causing excessive headspace. If its the extractor, you can push a case into the bolt head with the bolt out of the action and watch the extractor to see it it goes out past the outside of the bolt head when the extractor pops over the case head.
 
The BAT extractors are soft and can bend outward starting just behind the claw. I removed mine and straightened with no problem since but will be ordering a spare before this summer.
 
Some recent Nosler and Lapua brass for a couple of just completed 26 Noslers, of the same lots act the same way within a given lot. The problem was that the brass extraction groove was marginally tight on all the brass and even some did extract as it should, the ones that didn't were just 0.002-0.003" thicker on the rim.

With your bolt removed, fit some of the non-extracting brass in the bolt and see if the extractor goes all the way into the slot.

.
 
Mike Bryant said:
Remove your firing pin assembly and without a case in the bolt, check and see if the bolt will move fore and aft with the bolt closed. I'd guess that there isn't enough clearance between the end of the bolt and the coned breech of the barrel if it's a coned bolt and it's not letting the extractor pop over the case. If it's a flat bolt nose, then there may not be enough clearance between the end of the bolt nose and the end of the barrel tenon. If the sako extractor hits the end of the barrel, it may keep the bolt from extracting. I've also seen this happen when the shoulder has been set back too far causing excessive headspace. If its the extractor, you can push a case into the bolt head with the bolt out of the action and watch the extractor to see it it goes out past the outside of the bolt head when the extractor pops over the case head.
Click to expand...

Mike's #3 post is right on. Check out all he says and be sure to check the shoulder bump. Sized case should have no more than .002 shoulder set back .001 is best.
Chet
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

Part of what makes this a mystery is that each of the pieces of brass that the ejector does not pick up now, did at one time or more cycle through the rifle correctly. I only have 100 pieces of brass that have never been fired out of 500. I am going over to Russ Haydon's to have him check it out. He put the rifle together for me and should be able to see if anything has gotten out of spec. I am a newbie to precision shooting and still learning what matters and what does not.

If it is all a matter of brass that is no longer useful in my BAT rifle, I have plenty of brass to sort. I have a Ruger No. 1 V, also in 222 Rem that is far less picky than the BAT rifle, so little will be wasted. I have been keeping brass for the BAT and brass for the Ruger separate, ever since I once made the mistake of shooting brass in the BAT that had previously gone through the Ruger. As you can guess, the chambers do not match.
 
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Problem Found

Update:

Russ found what looks to be a damaged piece in the extractor assembly. I have ordered a new extractor assembly kit from BAT. When it arrives, Russ will install it and polish my chamber. He found nothing else amiss. If there is still a problem, I will just have to sort my brass accordingly.
 
I hope that fixes it. Let us know if it doesn't!

BTW - you're doing way too much getting those cases ready to reload. Just sayin'.....
 
Wilbur said:
I hope that fixes it. Let us know if it doesn't!

BTW - you're doing way too much getting those cases ready to reload. Just sayin'.....
Click to expand...

For neck sizing, I just load each piece into my Wilson Neck sizing and de-priming die. With my Arbor press, I squish it together once to neck size, flip the die over, squish it once more to pop out the spent primer and it is ready for priming. I can usually shoot each piece only twice after fire forming before the brass will no longer fit the chamber and needs to be run through the body die. I found that out the hard way. I believe it was during that learning experience that I damaged my extractor.

Since I got my RCBS ChargeMaster to go along with my RCBS Hand Primer, Arbor press and Wilson dies reloading has become a very quick operation. I was actually spending more time cleaning than all other procedures combined. Based on several discussions here and one with Russ, I will no longer be so concerned with cleaning and that will save a lot of work.

I have been loading with the arbor press and Wilson dies in 218 Bee, 222 Rem. and 204 Ruger for a few years. It is the only system I have found that lets me do everything smoothly and with no awkwardness one handed. I tried a Redding 3B powder measure but it was not a good choice for me. The ChargeMaster was the final tool needed to complete my one handed loading system. Another fine feature of this system is that I can set it up on the dining room table without annoying my wife. If it wasn't for the need to occasionally run brass through the body die, I could do it all on the dining room table, next to the fireplace and I would never need to spend time in the cold basement with the Rock Chucker.

As to my picky attention to detail; this summer I will be competing against shooters with far more experience and skill than I have. Anything that shows promise of leveling that playing field for me is worth a try. By controlling as many variables as possible, I am better able to figure out what all I am doing wrong. According to Russ, that is not much. A few changes in my mechanics while shooting and more experience reading the wind should do it.
 
All Better Now.

The new extractor kit completely cured the failure to extract problem.

I even know when and how I damaged it. A few months ago, I forced a cartridge that needed full length sizing into the chamber. It would not go in all the way and did not easily come back out. The bolt needed to be whacked back with a thump of my fist, on the bolt handle to get it back open. The cartridge did not come out with the bolt. Then the cartridge needed to be tapped out with a rod down the barrel. During that unfortunate sequence, the extractor was damaged. At first there seemed to be no problem but failures to extract started appearing with increased frequency until I could no longer ignore the problem.

I will never do that again. Like I say, "I am a slow learner but I learn well each new lesson." The fact that no other damage needed to be repaired is something of a miracle.
 
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You really need some fl dies mr slowshot. Your gun will work so much better we wont call you slowshot anymore. Call whidden up and get a fl bushing die on the way before you have to buy extractors in a bakers dozen blister pack.
 
I already have a fine set of dies. The problem was caused by my ignorance, not an equipment failure.

At the monthly varmint dinner that I occasionally attend, one of the regulars, upon hearing my story said, "some of your brass was coming out of the seater die with some difficulty wasn't it."

Talk about a light bulb moment! Yes it was. I had needed to use a toothpick to pry some of the loaded rounds out of the seater die. Being new to the Wilson die system, I did not recognize the message my brass was sending. I should have stopped immediately and called a more experienced loader for advice. But no, I just kept going. Now that I know to full length size every third re-loading there is no problem. After two firings, I just need to run each piece through the body die, after depriming and neck sizing. It takes very little time.

Yes, the removal of the stuck cartridge was a very scary moment. Have no fear. I will never do that again...ever!

Due to a physical disability, the Wilson dies with the arbor press simply make loading, without assistance, possible for me. A few years ago, I had been loading 220 Swift and 218 Bee with an RCBS Rock Chucker. It was a very awkward process with one hand, especially with flat based bullets. I often needed help. I hate that. It also required me to set up in my cold basement and was not convenient to take to the range.

Then, when I bought my BAT rifle, Russ Haydon loaned me a set of Wilson dies along with an Arbor press. It changed the world for me. I immediately bought a set of dies and a press. Now I can set up on my dining room table or on a bench at the range and load ammunition with ease and confidence one handed. I now load both 222 Rem. and 204 Ruger with the hand dies and arbor press. I still use the Rock Chucker but now that is only with the body dies.

Now that I have been advised to lighten up on the brass cleaning, brass prep just got to be a lot less time consuming. That and the recent purchase of an RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 have finally freed me to load quickly and with confidence at home or at the range. I am also putting together a battery pack to free me from needing a power outlet for the ChargeMaster. That will completely free me to load anywhere I can get out of the wind and rain. When I show up at any competition this year, I intend to arrive with at least 200 pieces of brass sized, trimmed, primed and ready to be loaded. I will also have two seater caps set at my most commonly accurate OAL. That should save me a lot of time and keep the day from being ruined when I (it will happen) drop my seater die cap on the concrete.


I have all of the high quality rifles, scopes, loading gear, benchrest gear, wind flags, powder, bullets and brass I need for this spring and summer. I just need to greatly improve my techniques. That means more days at the range, rather than more gear. Reading the wind, adjusting loads for conditions, speeding up my ability to make follow up shots...these are the things I need to work on. Sounds like fun to me.

If you want to watch me struggle to learn what I need to learn, I am at TRRC most Wednesdays from 11AM to about 2 PM. and some Tuesdays as well (same time). I am the guy with the rifle that looks like this:





Again, thanks for the advice and concern.
 
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What Dusty is saying is better than what you're doing and just as easy to do. What Dusty is suggesting is that you run the case into a FL die (custom die made especially for your rifle) each time you load which will eliminate most all the problems you're having. Actually, you're not having "problems" but rather you're doing it in two steps rather than one. You're cases will "act" better along the way as well with a custom FL die.
 
If using the die you recommend, I assume the brass must be lubed, adding a lubing, cleaning, and drying sequence to brass prep. as used to be normal when I loaded with a Rock Chucker. With neck sizing, I can skip those steps two out of three times that I load. What I do now is shoot 100 pieces of brass three times before lubing, body sizing, cleaning, and drying. Between times, de-priming and neck sizing 100 pieces of brass with my Wilson combined de-priming, neck sizing die can be done in only a few minutes. With the Wilson combination die, neck sizing occurs when you press the case into the die. Then you flip the die over to pop out the primer and eject the case in one motion. No lubing, cleaning or drying is needed. It could not be an easier or quicker two step system to achieve those two parts of the brass prep process.

I have a few questions. Where would I get a full length sizing die fit to my custom chamber? Is there one that will work with my arbor press, on the loading bench at the range? If not, wouldn't I need to buy another press? If, what I have works fine (now that I fully understand the way it all works) and saves me a few steps, two out of three loadings, why would I want to discard the precision tools I already have, that work well with my disabilities, and spend money on a completely different system?

Have you noticed how nearly any question ends up resulting in fellow shooters dissing your equipment and suggesting you should buy what they use. I am a member of four different shooter's forums. I cannot tell you how many times, I have been advised to dump my rests, scopes, rifles and all other shooting gear to buy that which the other guy uses. I can assure you all of my current shooting and loading gear has survived a harsh winnowing process. While I have purchased at least a dozen scopes, four different front rests, two dozen rifles, a half dozen handguns and much other gear over the past decade, I now own three rimfire rifles three centerfire rifles, five scopes, two handguns and one fine rest setup. Everything else failed to fit me in some important way and was either passed down to my children and grandchildren or was sold. The arbor press and Wilson die system was a game changer for me. Along with my recent purchase of an RCBS ChargeMaster, it lets me do the entire process from beginning brass prep to finished cartridge with my one good hand and no assistance.

Oh, by the way, if anyone has forgotten, I started this threads to ask a simple question about a possible problem with my extractor. Since then, I discovered my extractor was damaged. It is now repaired and working properly.
 
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I don't think the "custom" FL die needs lube. I'll have to defer this answer to somebody that uses one as I've never had such a die myself. Dusty can likely answer if he will. In my past, I've had a good friend that only had one arm and some of the things he cooked up to load his cases were simply amazing.

Just trying to help.
 
In my experience, custom FL dies require that cases be lubed. Most all of them are threaded like standard dies, so a regular press can be toted to the range and used there with any one of them. The need to FL size relates to how hot your loads are. Within the same group, if you have cases that chamber with some effort, and some that do not require that effort, your groups will suffer. They can all be tight, or all looser and you will be OK, but the problem is that they will not all get tight at the same rate. This, and the desire to be able to shoot quickly, and not upset the rifle on its bags are the reasons that virtually everyone in short range benchrest FL sizes. Before you buy a custom FL die, I think that it would be a good idea to fully measure a case that has been fired until it was tight, and again, after sizing with the proper amount of bump. You may be lucky and not need a custom die, based on the differences between the two sets of measurements. On the lube thing, unlike the majority who seem to prefer something like imperial sizing die wax, I have tried and liked RCBS Case Lube II because it comes off with a wet washcloth, that I keep in my loading kit in a zip lock freezer bag. Others have told me that the Hornady lube that comes in a tub is good and the company that sells Wipeout has a similar product that has received good reviews. If I need something other than water to remove lube, I prefer to wet a paper towel soaked with a little rubbing alcohol. It also works for cleaning brushes.
 
I am not sure what you mean by a "regular press". I have a fine, Russ Haydon designed and built, arbor press that works with my Wilson dies. I also have a big heavy clunky RCBS Rock chucker that I would not want to take to the range. I use the RCBS only for body sizing.

I keep my brass in separate lots of 25 that have all been all fired with identical loads. If any of them need body sizing they all do. The clue I ignored that caused the original problem was that brass was sticking in my seater die. I had mixed brass that had been fired in two different rifles. That is, two rifles with different chambers. Once it was pointed out what I had done wrong, I was able to run the remaining loaded rounds through my body die and shoot them successfully in the BAT. Unfortunately, I had already unknowingly damaged my extractor, which is why I began experiencing the failures to extract that was the issue in this thread.

Now I know better. Russ Haydon pointed out that I need to body size every three loadings. Having needed to replace extractor parts in my BAT bolt, I will not accidently mix brass ever again, so I am not worried about that. Now I am also making it a habit to run any brass that I am not sure of through my action to be sure if it needs body sizing. That is a lot less work than lubing, cleaning and drying brass. Please keep in mind that I have the use of only one hand for all processes, from priming brass to firing my rifle. Cleaning the lube off brass with a wet washcloth with one hand is possible but it is awkward and not necessary with my existing set of tools. Every third load, I just lube the whole lot, run it through the body die, clean for five minutes in my sonic cleaner (Simple Green works fine) rinse and air dry for a couple of days.

I have quite an imagination for adapting gear to work around my disabilities. For 26 years, I have adapted motorcycle controls for my use. I was the adaptations advisor for a no longer active website dedicated to disabled motorcyclists. I also play lap steel, dobro style and pedal steel guitar using tools I created and have taught several young people who have disabilities similar to mine how to play lap style guitar. Recently, I reinvented the wheel when I created an extension cable and knob assembly allowing me to adjust windage on my Sinclair rest with my trigger hand. Then I found Bald eagle rests can be bought with that adaptation in place.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...a36215478265be7b3f5674e0753f02dfo0&ajaxhist=0

After years of frustration with the Rock Chucker, Russ Haydon loaned me one of his arbor presses and the world changed. I cannot see how full length sizing brass after every firing would save me any time compared to neck sizing twice before each full length sizing and cleaning. My first firing fire forms the brass. Then I have two more firings before needing to body size. As long as I watch for brass sticking in the seater die and do not mix brass lots, there is no problem.

As I mentioned in my last reply, the extractor has been fixed. I learned my lesson. It will not happen again. I see no reason to replace the precision tools I now have. As what I have works very well and, if used properly, is rather fool proof.
 
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