Induction Annealed
- Thread starter mturner
- Start date
jackie schmidt
New member
What does your actual induction heating element look like?
Andy Cross
New member
Amp
I bought an AMP unit. All the testing and programs were done. IMO that alone was worth the cost.
I bought an AMP unit. All the testing and programs were done. IMO that alone was worth the cost.
My first test coil is 12GA solid copper wire. It is about .75" diameter by 1.25" tall. Tubing is better because you can water cooling the coil.
Andy
Glad to hear you are happy with the AMP. The thing is this, a lot of cases are not programmed in, because of turned necks. Any time you change the neck thickness, you are no longer calibrated for that particular brass. I will quickly be able to adjust the machine for my personal preference, and save about $900. I don't have time to mess with sending cases to AMP, so they can tell me what I need. I can promise you they would not have the program I need in their database.
Michael
adamsgt
Jerry Adams
This is not an attempt to change your mind, but The AMP people provide data to adjust for different neck thickness. Plus they use lab equipment to test the metallurgical properties of the brass in cases to arrive at the settings for annealing the brass on their equipment. Just curious as to what laboratory equipment you have that will allow you to analyze the properties of your brass so you can make the necessary adjustments to your device. Or is it going to be trial and error? I have an AMP and their list of tested brass is so long that there is none that i use that does not appear on their list. Of course you could be using some esoteric brass that few people have heard about. I'm guessing you're one of those people who prefer to roll their own. Well, it's a free country and to each his own. If I can buy a turnkey system that does what I need and the price is acceptable, I'll go that route. I have a lathe and a mill and a Tig welder and can make a lot of things. But if somebody's already done it, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I like AMP.
Andy Cross
New member
I have to agree
Doing the testing was going to be my next question. Even if I bought the necessary equipment to do the metallurgical testing and then learned how to use it, it would still take a lot more time and money than purchasing the AMP unit. A friend of mine on the other side of our country is a metallurgist and told me that not only is the correct temperature required for slight alterations in the alloy ie one brand to another but the soak time at that temperature also an issue. So I wish Michael the best with his project.
Doing the testing was going to be my next question. Even if I bought the necessary equipment to do the metallurgical testing and then learned how to use it, it would still take a lot more time and money than purchasing the AMP unit. A friend of mine on the other side of our country is a metallurgist and told me that not only is the correct temperature required for slight alterations in the alloy ie one brand to another but the soak time at that temperature also an issue. So I wish Michael the best with his project.
GeneT
Active member
I own an AMP, and as adamsgt said - they've got a setting for everything. OTOH, I'd be hard pressed to prove via accuracy or case life that it was any better than my old method of using a propane torch and tempilaq to figure out how long to hold the neck in the flame. So, if I were building an induction annealer, I would probably use tempilaq to see that I'd 'just' reached the heat I wanted and after that it would become a setting: X Volts at Y Hz for Z sec and should be very repeatable batch to batch. Maybe not as good as the AMP, but maybe every bit as good in a practical (accuracy, case life) sense - I'd love to see some concrete evidence either way.
Michael - you didn't describe much of your setup, but as you gear this up for "production" annealing, you'll want to watch the duty cycle your transformer can withstand and you'll probably need to shield your Arduino. You could poke around here: http://www.fluxeon.com/opensource.html to see if there are any other considerations you should look into.
Good luck!
GsT
Michael - you didn't describe much of your setup, but as you gear this up for "production" annealing, you'll want to watch the duty cycle your transformer can withstand and you'll probably need to shield your Arduino. You could poke around here: http://www.fluxeon.com/opensource.html to see if there are any other considerations you should look into.
Good luck!
GsT
The best way to explain "why" I'm doing this is simple. I have the capability. I enjoy these kind of projects. I don't simply play "follow the leader". I have been an inventor and product developer since I was a teenager. It runs in the family. This is not necessarily about a new product to market. I just finished a cruise control for my motorcycle, and I did it because I wanted a cruise control, and didn't see anything I really wanted to purchase. If I did want to make the new annealer a product, then AMP would have a major competitor. I say this for two reasons. I only build quality, and our company's customer service is the best in the world. When we all go out shooting benchrest, we do it because we enjoy it. My brother and I do things like this for the same reason other people do. Sometimes we would rather do this than watch TV.
I'll use Jackie Schmidt for an example, and hope he doesn't mind. Jackie can afford an AMP annealer, and he may buy one, or he may build his own. He can also afford for someone else to build his benchrest rifles, but he trust his own workmanship and attention to detail even more than he could trust someone else's. He could just watch TV, and pay someone else, but he probably also enjoys it.
Now if anyone can prove that hardness testing of brass is extremely critical to bullet placement on target, I'm listening, but if you can, you have made every other brand of annealer obsolete. I have been a tool and die maker for over 30 years. Hardness testing is a simple process, and while I have done it thousands of times, I see no need for me to incorporate it into my personal annealer. If I ever get the brass too soft, I can reduce time, or voltage. I believe going to a desired seating pressure is the best. Other than that, we are looking for consistency from case to case. If all the brass is the same hardness, same neck thickness, same neck tension, then all is good. AMP has no proof that a certain hardness is best for group size. If anyone disagrees with this statement, then AMP will need to prove the best neck tension. They can't do that for simple reasons. They have no idea what my barrel or yours likes best in the way of seating depth, or neck tension. If there was one simple answer, we would all use the same neck tension and seating depth, but we all know this depends on other variables like barrel, bullet, powder, caliber, etc.
Other than consistency, we look for improved case life. I have never seen a problem with the case life on any of my benchrest rifles, but with that said, many PPC shooters have complained about loosing neck tension. This is caused by too much spring-back of the case neck. This is not a case life issue, unless you threw good brass away. This is cured by annealing. I have seen many split necks with high neck clearance chambers.
Gene,
The points you made concerning duty cycle of the transformer, and shielding are good points. Typically we handle the duty cycle issue by using transformers and support electronics that are considered overkill for the task at hand. For the shielding we typically use metal enclosures to protect sensitive devices, and shielded cable. Obviously you know something about engineering.
I can post more details as I make further progress. This project is not anywhere near a priority. I will work on it in my spare time, if there is such a thing as "spare" time.
Michael
I'll use Jackie Schmidt for an example, and hope he doesn't mind. Jackie can afford an AMP annealer, and he may buy one, or he may build his own. He can also afford for someone else to build his benchrest rifles, but he trust his own workmanship and attention to detail even more than he could trust someone else's. He could just watch TV, and pay someone else, but he probably also enjoys it.
Now if anyone can prove that hardness testing of brass is extremely critical to bullet placement on target, I'm listening, but if you can, you have made every other brand of annealer obsolete. I have been a tool and die maker for over 30 years. Hardness testing is a simple process, and while I have done it thousands of times, I see no need for me to incorporate it into my personal annealer. If I ever get the brass too soft, I can reduce time, or voltage. I believe going to a desired seating pressure is the best. Other than that, we are looking for consistency from case to case. If all the brass is the same hardness, same neck thickness, same neck tension, then all is good. AMP has no proof that a certain hardness is best for group size. If anyone disagrees with this statement, then AMP will need to prove the best neck tension. They can't do that for simple reasons. They have no idea what my barrel or yours likes best in the way of seating depth, or neck tension. If there was one simple answer, we would all use the same neck tension and seating depth, but we all know this depends on other variables like barrel, bullet, powder, caliber, etc.
Other than consistency, we look for improved case life. I have never seen a problem with the case life on any of my benchrest rifles, but with that said, many PPC shooters have complained about loosing neck tension. This is caused by too much spring-back of the case neck. This is not a case life issue, unless you threw good brass away. This is cured by annealing. I have seen many split necks with high neck clearance chambers.
Gene,
The points you made concerning duty cycle of the transformer, and shielding are good points. Typically we handle the duty cycle issue by using transformers and support electronics that are considered overkill for the task at hand. For the shielding we typically use metal enclosures to protect sensitive devices, and shielded cable. Obviously you know something about engineering.
I can post more details as I make further progress. This project is not anywhere near a priority. I will work on it in my spare time, if there is such a thing as "spare" time.
Michael
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Lee Martin
Active member
Michael - my hat is off to you for building this. It's just like your BR action....you could've bought a Panda or Stiller, but instead made your own. In doing so, you controlled every aspect of the receiver and got some features not available off the shelf.
The next time we talk, I want to hear more about this induction annealer. Or if you have time, perhaps you could post additional details here. I'm sure others would be interested in knowing more about it.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
The next time we talk, I want to hear more about this induction annealer. Or if you have time, perhaps you could post additional details here. I'm sure others would be interested in knowing more about it.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
GeneT
Active member
I would certainly be interested. I'd also be interested in your action build if you documented it somewhere. Lee - I have followed your thread on singleactions since shortly after its inception. Thank you for doing such a thorough job (I know that takes a lot of extra work). - my full-custom action is somewhere in the wings...
GsT
Andy Cross
New member
Proof
Proof of anything working or not working in BR is for the most part unobtainable. Some things can be proven because using something like IMR 4831 simply wouldn't be a suitable powder for a cartridge like a 6mm PPC. The reason obtaining proof is so difficult is because there are simply too many components and subsystems within subsystems to isolate whether this variable influenced accuracy or not. I think there is plenty of room for the snake oil salesmen in our sport. The reason I anneal is to try to extend the life of the brass. Will it work ? Only time will tell but the metallurgists are saying it will.
Proof of anything working or not working in BR is for the most part unobtainable. Some things can be proven because using something like IMR 4831 simply wouldn't be a suitable powder for a cartridge like a 6mm PPC. The reason obtaining proof is so difficult is because there are simply too many components and subsystems within subsystems to isolate whether this variable influenced accuracy or not. I think there is plenty of room for the snake oil salesmen in our sport. The reason I anneal is to try to extend the life of the brass. Will it work ? Only time will tell but the metallurgists are saying it will.
Andy
often times I think you are right on. However, I have been playing with a 30x46 for score shooting over the last 3 weeks. My reasoning was that Benchmark would be a good place to start. It's very small kernels that meter well, of reasonable burn rate for the case size. For the life of me I could not get the gun to group using it. I tried BIBs 7 ogive and 10 ogive 118's and BIB 112 gr 7s. I varied the powder charge till things looked better. Then varied seating depth. No matter what I tried I could not get a good group with it. Last week I tried H4198 and about 5 thou jam, which seemed the best with BM. The thing shot a tiny knot on the target with BIB 118 7 ogive bullets. So, one can isolate a variable on occasion, in this case powder. --Greg
often times I think you are right on. However, I have been playing with a 30x46 for score shooting over the last 3 weeks. My reasoning was that Benchmark would be a good place to start. It's very small kernels that meter well, of reasonable burn rate for the case size. For the life of me I could not get the gun to group using it. I tried BIBs 7 ogive and 10 ogive 118's and BIB 112 gr 7s. I varied the powder charge till things looked better. Then varied seating depth. No matter what I tried I could not get a good group with it. Last week I tried H4198 and about 5 thou jam, which seemed the best with BM. The thing shot a tiny knot on the target with BIB 118 7 ogive bullets. So, one can isolate a variable on occasion, in this case powder. --Greg
Have you read this thread?
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Back when I was shooting CF rifles a lot,
I use to believe I could make any bullets shoot in the rifles I was using. I have since learned that I was WRONG. And beyond that, not only did I discover that a particular barrel liked a particular bullet but it also preferred a particular powder along with that bullet. Unfortunately, the bullet maker no longer makes them
. So, to all of those folks I disagreed with on that subject, I have seen the error of my pig headed beliefs.
On the subject of induction annealing, there where several good Youtube films made of a lad who used an automotive mechanic's annealer with good success. The films are likely still there. In my estimation, the induction annealer is the slicing of the case annealing loaf. Absolutely the berries. I looked into, a little bit, trying to find a source to have someone make some, specifically for cartridge cases but like so many "good ideas" I have had over the years, my ADD did not permit me to get anything done. I figured if I could find someone who goes to China to facilitate things like this, it could be a slam dunk. Then I wondered if a lad could sell enough of them for everyone's trouble and investment. I admire lads like Mike who CAN DO so many things and has the ambition to follow through. Good on ya Mike
Pete
Pete
I use to believe I could make any bullets shoot in the rifles I was using. I have since learned that I was WRONG. And beyond that, not only did I discover that a particular barrel liked a particular bullet but it also preferred a particular powder along with that bullet. Unfortunately, the bullet maker no longer makes them
. So, to all of those folks I disagreed with on that subject, I have seen the error of my pig headed beliefs.On the subject of induction annealing, there where several good Youtube films made of a lad who used an automotive mechanic's annealer with good success. The films are likely still there. In my estimation, the induction annealer is the slicing of the case annealing loaf. Absolutely the berries. I looked into, a little bit, trying to find a source to have someone make some, specifically for cartridge cases but like so many "good ideas" I have had over the years, my ADD did not permit me to get anything done. I figured if I could find someone who goes to China to facilitate things like this, it could be a slam dunk. Then I wondered if a lad could sell enough of them for everyone's trouble and investment. I admire lads like Mike who CAN DO so many things and has the ambition to follow through. Good on ya Mike
Pete
Pete
Andy Cross
New member
Been there
Yeah Greg I've been there. But on one occasion when I swore blind that the new batch of powder or bullets were not playing the game I handed the rifle to a shooter who can usually beat me any time they feel like it. He shot a couple of groups under the same conditions using the same load that were half the size of mine. His comment was doesn't seem to bad to me. Had you done the same thing I wonder if something similar may have resulted.
Yeah Greg I've been there. But on one occasion when I swore blind that the new batch of powder or bullets were not playing the game I handed the rifle to a shooter who can usually beat me any time they feel like it. He shot a couple of groups under the same conditions using the same load that were half the size of mine. His comment was doesn't seem to bad to me. Had you done the same thing I wonder if something similar may have resulted.
Happens to lots of us
Andy,
Seems like every time my 30-30 seems to be a little bit off of it's normal performance, I get another shooter to test it and he always shoots a couple of 5 shot groups in the ones. Then they always say something like " it's not the gun, it's you". The first time I ever shot in Raton, I had not fired a round in competition for 8 years. It was test and tune Friday, and I could not shoot a group to save my life. I had already told Mike Cordes that the gun really shoots, but seems to be a problem now, so he asked me to load five rounds for him. He easily shot a nice mid one group, and said the gun seems fine to him. That weekend I placed second in the HV grand.
Michael
Andy,
Seems like every time my 30-30 seems to be a little bit off of it's normal performance, I get another shooter to test it and he always shoots a couple of 5 shot groups in the ones. Then they always say something like " it's not the gun, it's you". The first time I ever shot in Raton, I had not fired a round in competition for 8 years. It was test and tune Friday, and I could not shoot a group to save my life. I had already told Mike Cordes that the gun really shoots, but seems to be a problem now, so he asked me to load five rounds for him. He easily shot a nice mid one group, and said the gun seems fine to him. That weekend I placed second in the HV grand.
Michael
Normmatzen
New member
Here is a thread from Accurate Shooter that discusses the Annie as well as showing a modification I made for mine.
I believe the Annie is a good value as I have had excellant results since Fluxeon got over their initial G0-Into-Production problems.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/all-annie-owners.3916829/
I believe the Annie is a good value as I have had excellant results since Fluxeon got over their initial G0-Into-Production problems.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/all-annie-owners.3916829/
There is a lot of really nice case annealers out there. The Annie is no exception. The really nice annealers run in the $500 to $1100 price range. So far I'm at $70. I have not purchased a recirculating water style CPU cooler $25, or the Arduino board at $4, other small items like solenoid, or case materials, but project my total cost to be between $125 and $150. This is definitely not the way to go for everyone, but it is cheaper than propane torch annealers, and is far more repeatable. After I take the necessary time to finish my annealer, I will be glad to offer help to anyone interested in building their own, including pre-programmed Arduino boards for those who need them.
Michael
Don't let yourself get wrapped around the axle because a piece of equipment has the potential to produce results with very high resolution. For example, do you need a scale which reads to .0002 gr when a kernel of Varget weighs about .02 grains if you know you aren't going to cut a single powder kernel into 100 pieces? Probably not.
So while the job the AMP people do is good and while they are able to measure the condition of an annealed case and while they are able to offer suggestions on how you can match those test results, you must ask yourself if that is really required? You use the term "necessary adjustments", but first you must ask yourself if these fine adjustments are truly necessary or simply nice to have. I suppose you could argue that high precision is nearly always desirable; however, it might not be quite so important in this instance. Here's why I say that.
As part of my formal education I took some classes in metallurgy. And while I'm no metallurgist, I do have some training in what happens to brass when you work harden it and then subject it to an annealing process. Yes, time and temperature are the two main factors we deal with when making our cases softer than their "as fired and/or as resized" condition. But don't overlook the question about how important is it to hit your hardness goal exactly? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you must do it.
I would argue that consistency is the most important factor and actual hardness is of secondary concern. I anneal every time using a DIY machine which has an automatic case handler I can adjust to a fraction of a second. I have a setting for each caliber I reload as well as an adjustment for neck thickness. But I don't own the equipment to test the actual hardness of my .014" thick 6mm brass compared with my .012" .223 brass, for instance. Most likely they're a little different from one another, but I do my best to make each kind of brass identical to its sibling.
Annealing has a direct effect on neck tension and that depends on exactly what happens when I fire, resize, clean, uniform, and otherwise process my brass. I do that ritual exactly the same each time. The guy shooting next to me may use a different procedure and his brass might be a little harder or softer than mine. But as long as we are both consistent, I strongly suspect neither one of us hold an advantage. We should both enjoy long brass life and, assuming we've done careful testing, we can both shoot small groups. Likewise my .223 brass and 6mm brass may not have identical hardness in the neck area, but that is not the holy grail of precision shooting as far as I'm concerned. Don't forget, our end results are measured at the target, not at the hardness machine. They don't give out trophies based on who has the ideal brass hardness.
I have no doubt that a DIY induction machine can be made to do a fine job annealing cases even without also building a hardness tester. I firmly believe that is because absolute hardness, within reason, isn't as important as being consistent. We DIY aficionados have inexpensive tools available to us to know quite a bit about our annealing process without measuring the actual hardness value. Of course, there's nothing wrong with commercial induction machines, especially ones where the maker goes out of his way to do plenty of testing and calibrating. That's all well and good. But just because F-1 racing teams adjust their tire pressure in 1/4 psi increments doesn't mean I have to do the same on my grocery getter.
Finally, to put this all in perspective, Bryan Litz, who is recognized as one of our sports more careful testers, did an experiment measuring any accuracy difference between cases annealed every time with those fired ten times and resized ten times without annealing. The unannealed cases were definitely harder, yet there was no delectable difference in performance. At some point we need to ask ourselves, how much time and money are we willing to invest in picking fly out of the pepper?
Nevertheless, I anneal every time anyway no matter what Mr. Litz's tests indicate. Don't get me wrong, if you can afford an AMP annealer, go for it. It's probably the best thing on the market. However, for someone watching their money who already has a precision annealer (even if it's a DIY version), I would argue that you are likely to get more bang for the buck spending that extra money on a betters scope,barrel, scale, rest, or what-have-you.
Andy Cross
New member
Origiinal goal
The original goal with annealing was to extend the life of the brass which has not only increased in cost over the years but it also takes time to prepare. So even if the accuracy didn't increase due to consistency, which it might not , I would still anneal just to extend the life of the brass. I couldn't design or build the likes of an amp annealing unit for the cost of one. Has there been more R&D go into the unit than is necessary. Probably but who cares ?
The original goal with annealing was to extend the life of the brass which has not only increased in cost over the years but it also takes time to prepare. So even if the accuracy didn't increase due to consistency, which it might not , I would still anneal just to extend the life of the brass. I couldn't design or build the likes of an amp annealing unit for the cost of one. Has there been more R&D go into the unit than is necessary. Probably but who cares ?