Ignition, esp. primer and case web
- Thread starter Charles E
- Start date
Where does THIS come from? This board has done more to change the face of benchrest than any other influence ..... ever.
15yrs ago, when a lot more competitors logged on, many were flatout PO'd at all the "secrets" being shared, some worked actively at deception. In the ensuing yrs MANY changes have occurred, all to better accuracy and the 600-1000yd gun has evolved at a much faster rate than the 6PPC did.
There was talk of his board putting Brennan out of business.
I mean, there's nothing else like this....... a guy puts together a winning package and you just go ASK him what he did. What I simply cannot grasp is this idea that "while this is all a waste of time" and "I know nothing gets accomplished here" and "we'll never change the world" and "the REAL shooters" and "Boyer..." and ON and ON and ON.... the changes HAPPEN and I watch them and marvel, people STILL balk at this as a real resource!! Somehow The Printed Word on Wilbur's Harris' Board is less efficacious than elsewhere?? Somehow a paper copy is "better" than a living peer-reviewed-in-real-time message board???
WHY?
al
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gonehunting378
Guest
not just you al, i was trying my best at humor....allthough it is true, you will win alot of days at 1k, shooting 1/2moa (10 shot), durring match conditions. some days you can't win with a 4, and sometimes a 7 incher will take first...if my stuff shoots 1/2 moa (5 shot), practice/good conditions......a tomato stake it will be!(expensive one at that)
tom
tom
Two reasons. The sport changes through the heat of competition, and from serious writing. Bob McCoy changed shooting. We don't write that way, either in style, or in organization and comprehensiveness. I was trained as an academic, and it shows. The only book I wrote, the editor said something like "Boy, this is raw." She edited out about half my words, and the piece got a whole lot better. You've probably noticed my posts are the same way -- about twice as many words as needed, most just getting in the way. Might I suggest your writing has some flaws as well? It is what it is, notes for further thinking.
The other point: Back in the late 1990s, I was touting the usefulness of tuners for CF rifles. Jackie Schmidt -- and others -- were all saying, no, I tune by changing my load. Don't need, never will need a tuner.
Another post, a bit later, was in response to a guy from South Africa, who wanted one rifle to shoot both group and score. I recommended a .30BR. Now, I've shot the .30BR in PB HV group matches since the late 1990s. But the pundits on the board again said, no, the .30 BR is not as good as the PPC for group, don't do that, get two barrels. Now in South Africa, barrels have serial numbers. You need permission to replace a barrel. Permission is not automatic. Or so we were told by a South African F-class shooter when the F-class nationals were at Butner. One barrel that will last is a real plus.
OK, time passes, both are now accepted. But it was competition that changed things, not posts on Benchrest Central.
* * *
I'm still thinking about what you wrote on ignition. Here is another example I don't believe high pressure is by itself what allows the best performance. Suppose we were using compressed air, would that still be true? And you'd say something like "you gotta go with the propellants we have. Stick to gunpowder, and commonly available ones to boot." Fair enough. What about double-based powders? I think they have a wider pressure window. But they aren't used much in PB benchrest, not since Reloader 10 crapped out on us. But Rel-25, VV N560 etc work very well in some long-range applications, and often before they show max pressure. Why is that?
Most of the time, when we are trying to advance the sport rather than answer basic questions, our posts on BR Central are hints, not answers.
Or so I feel. And it is worthwhile.
Opinion, of course.
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4Mesh
Guest
I just wrote a hell of a long post and when I clicked Go Advanced so I could proofread it, I got:
Now, because the editor window is a javascript pos thing that pops up, the post is gone in the bit bucket. I'm pissed. An I ain't re-type'n it.
might I suggest BUGGER OFF!
This is my CHOICE..... I'm not stuck wit' it! No, actually, you may suggest whatever you want..... it's America after all, and while I'm not "thick-skinned" in any way I'm certainly open to criticism, welcome it in fact..... discussion is where growth and learning occur.AB'solutely not..... and don't try to put words in my mouth. I'm fascinated by air pressured and other rifles. I've subscribed to Dr Beemans articles for 30years. My wife bought me an RX-1 the year they came out.
"High pressure" is simply where the clean ignition occurs when one is stuck with an archaic, almost medieval propellant system. The high pressure part is the unfortunate downside of the thing. But simple experiments will show (and many years of shooting history will prove) that only in the upper stratosphere of the loading envelope does the clean consumption occur. Really it's no different than any other oxidation reaction, internal combustion engines are up against the same exact set of strictures. We get misled by phrases such as "I shoot my PPC in the upper load window" which infers that there IS a lower load window while acknowledging that others choose to use it..... forgetting to mention the fact that the LOWER load window is clear out of any loading manual's parameters! Load manuals, even those that list loads for BR and PPC don't even APPROACH anything competitive.
Now, conversely, are you going to say (here I'm putting words in your mouth
) that a PPC could be competitive down around 65,000 psi? that it's NOT a pressure/burn curve thing? That you could use say a 22-250 case or a ,243 case in place of the BR or .220R???? As one who's actually DONE it, I'll beg to differ.Well ok, be that as it may, I've watched entire builds occur here, in real time. From genesis to fruition, some losing, some winning. Some not only WINNING but completely resetting the parameters.
I've watched as "real competitors" completely switched gears, changed positions on subjects as you've mentioned, revised or refined methods that changed them from competitors to winners. I've watched as proven winners have stepped into other areas of sport and done well, Don Neilsen's use of the 6.5X47L case comes to mind.
Call it hints if you want, I've watched as people have readjusted entire worldviews to accommodate information disseminated right here. A lot of the guys here are REAL shooters..... with REAL information to pass on.
Yourself included. You and Joel saved me a LOT of money by freely sharing your work on tensioned guns. Could I build one from what I've learned from you guys? From the Ozzie contingent?? Or is it only 'hints'???
answer...
I could build one, from scratch. Do I want to build one now??
answer...
no, they can't chase the heat..
As far as the serious writing part..... how many innovative, winning builders do you think read and understand McCoy?
You know what else I enjoy???
The fact that you and I can completely disagree, or not
, and it's all good.I still think Wilbur's board has done more to advance the pursuit of accuracy than any other single factor in the history of accuracy.
MY opinion
al
OK Al, I think I now know what was behind your small primer statement.
I'm more irritable than usual this morning. I don't really want to nit-pick argue every little point to draw out more information -- another problem of this board, and I'm as guilty as anyone about it. This isn't personal attack. Posting on internet forums seems to draw it out of many of us.
One of the things I hated about academia was that a person's ideas became their value, so everyone took any discussion personally, arguing and defending every small point to the extent that activity got in the way of making progress developing ideas. Best decision I ever made was to get out of academics, I'm not suited for it.
Phil lost his data, I've lost interest.
Stay well,
Charles
I'm more irritable than usual this morning. I don't really want to nit-pick argue every little point to draw out more information -- another problem of this board, and I'm as guilty as anyone about it. This isn't personal attack. Posting on internet forums seems to draw it out of many of us.
One of the things I hated about academia was that a person's ideas became their value, so everyone took any discussion personally, arguing and defending every small point to the extent that activity got in the way of making progress developing ideas. Best decision I ever made was to get out of academics, I'm not suited for it.
Phil lost his data, I've lost interest.
Stay well,
Charles
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Charles and Phil and Alinwa
Let me say this, We have no control over raw materials. This year I got two 8Lb ers of H-4350 loaded Kathy's H.G. and you know how it shot last year. Well if it wasn't for me shooting it threw my Chronograph, I would have been driving myself nuts. The Powder was one grain slower than the lot from last year. So what makes you think the primers are all flashing the same even if they weigh the same.
Joe SAlt
Let me say this, We have no control over raw materials. This year I got two 8Lb ers of H-4350 loaded Kathy's H.G. and you know how it shot last year. Well if it wasn't for me shooting it threw my Chronograph, I would have been driving myself nuts. The Powder was one grain slower than the lot from last year. So what makes you think the primers are all flashing the same even if they weigh the same.
Joe SAlt
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4Mesh
Guest
I'd covered a lot of topics in my non-post. But, one I did want to quickly stick in here is, all of us have bias toward the personal experiences we've had. I've had experience in doing things 180 deg opposite from the accepted standards and doing well. Others have had the same. Very little about my stuff resembles anyone elses.
I'm not saying it's bad cause all the experiences and drawn conclusions have merit, but virtually everything any of us says on these boards has some connection to our own findings from personal experience. That doesn't make them right, it just makes em right under those circumstances.
It's sorta funny that I disagee with all 5 of Al's prerequisites, yet agree with nearly all the conclusions. His 5 points are probably looking like gospel from where he stands, but to me they look pretty narrow minded. And I'm pretty certain things I say are looked upon the same way.
All in fun. Back to work now. No clicking on go advanced for me.
I'm not saying it's bad cause all the experiences and drawn conclusions have merit, but virtually everything any of us says on these boards has some connection to our own findings from personal experience. That doesn't make them right, it just makes em right under those circumstances.
It's sorta funny that I disagee with all 5 of Al's prerequisites, yet agree with nearly all the conclusions. His 5 points are probably looking like gospel from where he stands, but to me they look pretty narrow minded. And I'm pretty certain things I say are looked upon the same way.
All in fun. Back to work now. No clicking on go advanced for me.
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gonehunting378
Guest
at least you know what "go advanced" IS, im lucky to not mis.....spell as i search for the buttons with me trigger finger.
joe, simalar here with the latest h4895...exept this newer stuff is faster. i was sure glad to have enough older stuff around for me light gun. did you try having kathy shoot it? hahaha
later,
tom
joe, simalar here with the latest h4895...exept this newer stuff is faster. i was sure glad to have enough older stuff around for me light gun. did you try having kathy shoot it? hahaha
later,
tom
Tom
Yes I did have her shoot it, at the World Open and she put all twenty shots in the blue and came in 7th for score. I believe the next time I shoot the dam thing I'm going to do what Jeff Mertz suggested, was to wear a wig. He thinks maybe the rifle doesen't like men. But it's probably cause she free recoil the thing and I have to shoot it. Guess I'll try the Wig. But back to the primers and flash holes. I've always used Fed 215 in everything I shoot, I beieve if you were to find anything written on them they have the most consistent flash of any primer on the market and I've never had a misfire. So that my thoughts!
Joe Salt
Yes I did have her shoot it, at the World Open and she put all twenty shots in the blue and came in 7th for score. I believe the next time I shoot the dam thing I'm going to do what Jeff Mertz suggested, was to wear a wig. He thinks maybe the rifle doesen't like men. But it's probably cause she free recoil the thing and I have to shoot it. Guess I'll try the Wig. But back to the primers and flash holes. I've always used Fed 215 in everything I shoot, I beieve if you were to find anything written on them they have the most consistent flash of any primer on the market and I've never had a misfire. So that my thoughts!
Joe Salt
Sorry Charles....
I get ........ rambuctious.
I meant it in fun, really. smileys.... my problem is, I left the academe in the early eighties, I pour concrete for a living. Can't get much closer to reality (in work) than that, high pressure and unforgiving of innovation. I unwind here.... too much sometimes.
al
I get ........ rambuctious.
I meant it in fun, really. smileys.... my problem is, I left the academe in the early eighties, I pour concrete for a living. Can't get much closer to reality (in work) than that, high pressure and unforgiving of innovation. I unwind here.... too much sometimes.
al
G
gonehunting378
Guest
i kind of knew that allready joe, sorry about the setup...if you resort to a skirt, there better be pictures! well, maybe i don't need to see that on second thought. good luck this weekend, may there be low skies and no wind.
tom
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dk hunt 14
Guest
4mesh, you art wrong about the firing pin spring not causing vertical. Maybe in your gun it don't but it almost takes to hands to lift your bolt.
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4Mesh
Guest
Matt,
My firing pins are not particularly strong. But, the angle of my ramp in the bolt is steeper and longer than most. I have a longer fall, but, not greater spring pressure. And, with a long fall like that, even a Mauser action will have no ignition issues. I've seen some of them with almost no spring at all. Seem to work fine.
From memory, I think my springs run low 20's #, but I could be mistaken.
My firing pins are not particularly strong. But, the angle of my ramp in the bolt is steeper and longer than most. I have a longer fall, but, not greater spring pressure. And, with a long fall like that, even a Mauser action will have no ignition issues. I've seen some of them with almost no spring at all. Seem to work fine.
From memory, I think my springs run low 20's #, but I could be mistaken.
I have just received a box of the "Palma" brass, couldn't wait to try it out loaded up 10 rounds of my normal load 44.6gr of 2206H (H4895 ??) with a 155 HBC (similar to a 155 Berger VLD), went and shot @ 600, I read in "the hype" that I should lose about 20 - 30 FPS compared with the LRP case well the first round didn't go off ( pulled the projectile and found partially burnt powder) , loaded the next round and click .......BANG and hit 3.5moa low on the target, tried one more and again click ... BANG and again low on the target, now 3.5 moa low is more than 20 -30 fps. The rifle is a Barnard S (firing pin spring is less than 12 months old and protrtion is 50 thou) with a Archer match barrel, using CCI 450 primer all components used are from proven batches and used with success in this rifle with a 6BR barrel installed.Cases where checked for headspace and all where a crush fit. Temp was about 18 C.
I have concidered drilling the flash holes out but from "the hype" I shouldn't need to any ideas ???
Seems to me a case about 45-47 mm long is about the limit of a SRP
Matt Paroz
Australia
I have concidered drilling the flash holes out but from "the hype" I shouldn't need to any ideas ???
Seems to me a case about 45-47 mm long is about the limit of a SRP
Matt Paroz
Australia
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Greg Culpepper
Guest
Matt,
What primers did you use? Are they considered mild? Before you drill the flash holes out I hope you'll try some different (hotter) primers. Based on the work of others (Salazar) and my own casual observations I have the expectation that Rem 71/2 , CCI 450 and CCI 41 have the best potential for capitalizing on the differences of the new small primer Lapua brass. The situation you have with too little/marginal ignition is a great opportunity for gaining real knowledge. I hope you can get back to us with additional test results.
Greg
What primers did you use? Are they considered mild? Before you drill the flash holes out I hope you'll try some different (hotter) primers. Based on the work of others (Salazar) and my own casual observations I have the expectation that Rem 71/2 , CCI 450 and CCI 41 have the best potential for capitalizing on the differences of the new small primer Lapua brass. The situation you have with too little/marginal ignition is a great opportunity for gaining real knowledge. I hope you can get back to us with additional test results.
Greg
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4Mesh
Guest
Matt from down under,
What action. How much firing pin fall is there? Total?
What action. How much firing pin fall is there? Total?