Identifying a barrel mfg

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Ben Hooper
I bought a rifle last week at a local gunshop, where I frequently browse the racks. It had a LV contour stainless bbl, spray painted black, no markings. I checked the twist at 12. 6 groove, Chambered 308 on a Mauser action. The price was right, for something to tinker on.

Is there any definitive way to determine, or at least narrow down mfg...or at least button or cut?

Ben
 
Identifing the barrel

Every barrel manufactures rifling is unique. A quick examination with a bore scope can tell a lot to the experienced eye.

If the barrel was fitted by a licensed gunsmith it will have the smiths first initial and last name stamped or engraved into the barrel usually on the left side just above the stock line.

You can do research on the BATF website to locate the smith. If it was done by someone not licensed or no longer in business you can check on this site and others to see if anyone knows the individual.

Another way is if the gun was bought through a dealer he will have in his A&D book where the rifle came from. If he will research and share that information with you is another story. The prior owner may no the origination of the barrel or the owner prior the him.

Nat Lambeth
 
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Agree to diasagree.

Butch with all due respect we can agree to disagree. I think if you were to contact the Association of Tool Mark Exaniners who study the forensics of bullets, cases and barrels you would find there is an extensive data library of rifling patterns. The FBI, BATF, US ARMY have extensive computerzed databases that work very simularily to the AFIS fingerprint database. Even with extensive lapping an barrel wear button or broached barrels still have consistent enough markings that the manufacture or tooling can be identified. Cut rifling is a whole different story. Each Cutter carries its own charteristics that are changed every time they are resharpened. There are many barrel makers out there and each has their own distinct finger print. The type of rifling, cut, button, hammerforged, polygonal all narrow down the sources.

Again I would say tracking the manufacture of a barrel would be easier by getting in touch with the person who commissioned the work and or the person who did the work. I know I keep a log of all barrel work that I do. You could aske me to confirm a barrel manufacture use in a build. I could cross reference it by customer name, action serial number. I keep the manufactures numbers and barrel specs on file. I know if you called Tim North at Broughton, Jack Kreiger at Kreiger, Frank Green at Bartlein, Mike Rock at Rock Creek they would be able to track any barrel sold to me.

I can tell you if I examined any of these manufactures barrels with a borescope I can tell you with a 85% certainty whose barrel I am looking at.
By the bore diameter, type of rifling, number and shape of the lands and grooves, the tool marks, etc.

Nat
 
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Rustystud said:
Butch with all due respect we can agree to disagree. I think if you were to contact the Association of Tool Mark Exaniners who study the forensics of bullets, cases and barrels you would find there is an extensive data library of rifling patterns. The FBI, BATF, US ARMY have extensive computerzed databases that work very simularily to the AFIS fingerprint database. Even with extensive lapping an barrel wear button or broached barrels still have consistent enough markings that the manufacture or tooling can be identified. Cut rifling is a whole different story. Each Cutter carries its own charteristics that are changed every time they are resharpened. There are many barrel makers out there and each has their own distinct finger print. The type of rifling, cut, button, hammerforged, polygonal all narrow down the sources.

Anain I would say tracking the manufacture of a barrel would be easier by getting in touch with the person who commissioned the work and or the person who did the work. I know I keep a log of all barrel work that I do. You could aske me to confirm a barrel manufacture use in a build. I could cross reference it by customer name, action serial number. I keep the manufactures numbers and barrel specs on file. I know if you called Tim North at Broughton, Jack Kreiger at Kreiger, Frank Green at Bartlein, Mike Rock at Rock Creek they would be able to track any barrel sold to me.

I can tell you if I examined any of these manufactures barrels with a borescope I can tell you with a 85% certainty whose barrel I am looking at.
By the bore diameter, type of rifling, number and shape of the lands and grooves, the tool marks, etc.

Nat
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Thanks Nat,

I ran into a dead end at the dealer, since the rifle was sold a few times by private sales previous to the dealer getting it.

Calling folks and asking questions....well, you know what a pita that is with respect to guns...

I'll try to get a photo of the endoscope and post that.

The bolt work was a little sloppy, but I will fix that. One of the reasons I picked it up was the bbl has plenty of meat for a rechamber if that turns out as poor as the bolt looks.

The dealer claimed the rifle shot "extremely well", but we know how that story goes!

His and my idea of "extremely well" may differ.

We'll see.

Thanks

Ben
 
Waterboy,
Most people that chamber barrels have Deltronic pins or other bushings to determine bore land diameter. If the bore is .300 on the lands and when you put an indicator in the bore and it moves .004 you have a groove diameter of .308. You don't need to bother Dave with that question. I'm pretty sure Ben has the proper tools and knows how to do what I am saying. This will not get him too far down the road identifying the barrel maker.
Butch
 
I will check the land height and groove dia if that will help. I was thinking the tooling marks would tell me more.

I guess, at the end of the day, it does not matter who made the bbl. I'd just like to know for my records.

Ben
 
Ben,
I think you are wasting your time. A good barrel is lapped. If it shoots well just go for it. If you are interested enough, send it to Nat.
Butch
 
Lynn,
That is why they sell them in sets as they all ain't the same. If they were, we wouldn't need a set. Say a Kreiger sells 6mm in .236 or .237. They ain't exactly that size when you get them, but are close. The mean size on my 6mm is .2365 on both my bushings and Deltronic pins. A set of say 9 pins are .0002 apart. That would give you a range of .2373-.2357. You can vary your mean to suit yourself. Actually with the premium barrels I have seen nothing smaller than .2358 or larger than .2375 and this includes Lilja, Bartlein, Kreiger, Pac Nor, Shilen, Douglas, and Rock Creek.
Butch
 
Bore Diameters vary w/ manufacture..

Kreiger also makes tight bore 30 caliber barrels. The Palma shooters often request .298 and .299 barrels. Their regular 30 calibers that I have received have been .3000-.3007. Many of my F-TR shooter prefer a looser barrel with the long Berger VLDs. They shoot good at 1000 yards because they can get their ES down under 10fps.
Nat Lambeth
 
Rustystud said:
. . . They shoot good at 1000 yards because they can get their ES down under 10fps.
Click to expand...
Well, all things being equal, it never hurts. On the other hand, I've seen more than one 1,000 yard Benchrest rifle/load that didn't meet that criteria, and would shoot small. BTW, if you shoot small groups and they're centered up, you also get a good score.

I have also seen people chase that low ES/SD number, succeed in that, and wind up with loads that aren't competitive. As the old saying goes, ceteris ain't hardly ever paribus.
 
Rustystud said:
Kreiger also makes tight bore 30 caliber barrels. The Palma shooters often request .298 and .299 barrels. Their regular 30 calibers that I have received have been .3000-.3007. Many of my F-TR shooter prefer a looser barrel with the long Berger VLDs. They shoot good at 1000 yards because they can get their ES down under 10fps.
Nat Lambeth
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I don't know what you specify when you order a Krieger barrel in 30 cal, but mine are all less than .300 bore, usually .298. This is one of his things that John claims to help accuracy, a tight bore
 
Tight bore vs non tight bore

Jim:

Palma shoters are restricted to 155-156 garin bullets and shoot ranges 800, 900 and 1000 yards. To acheive the velocity needed they shoot 30-32 inch 1:12 to 1:14 twist barrels. The bearing surface in these bullets are shorter. To prevent gas leakage they shoot what is called tight bore barrels .298 -.299). This may vary a little between manufactures.

For others who shoot longer and heavier 30 caliber the tight bore barrels create presure issues and tend to wear out earlier. Most of the barrels I use for non palma longrange (F-TR) 308 shooters have a .3001-.3007 bore and .3074-.3080 groove depth.

Hunting bullets in the past also tended to have a shorter bearing surface than the VLD target bullets. Today Barnes, Swift, Berger, Hornady, are all offering longer bullets. There bullets arre not J4 jacketed bullets and can handle extreme presure better. Many of them are monolyth in design and don't compress like a lead core bullet. Therefore they are belted in design. Non tight bore barrels are designed to accomodate these type bullets.

Nat Lambeth
 
Charles E said:
Well, all things being equal, it never hurts. On the other hand, I've seen more than one 1,000 yard Benchrest rifle/load that didn't meet that criteria, and would shoot small. BTW, if you shoot small groups and they're centered up, you also get a good score.

I have also seen people chase that low ES/SD number, succeed in that, and wind up with loads that aren't competitive. As the old saying goes, ceteris ain't hardly ever paribus.
Click to expand...

Prioritizing ES over group is the tail wagging the dog...in my mind.
 
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