IBS long range front bag rule queston

Tod, WV. is a new club, in fact brand new! As far as the bag rule goes its just a matter of not rapping the bag up around the stock so you can't just lift it out without lifting the whole rest off the bench! Some of Dave and Bills friends use to check there bags all the time when they came to PA. that was a few years ago now. But we have to kind of police each other so this doesen't happen. So if someone does break a record, they are checked! Like Dave said most stocks are made so this can't happen.

Joe SAlt
 
Sand bags on
front rests must be a minimum of one and one-half inches wide by four inches long

Does this mean a edgewood front bag is illegal. 1 1/2'' thick I don't own a edgewood can anybody tell me how thick they are front to rear.

Gordy Mitchell
 
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the rule tells me that the sand around the gun stock must be 1/2" min....not that its side plates or retaining plates/straps have to have that much clearance....and not just 1/2" up the sides but 1/2" thick along the side....and of cours must allow the rifle to be raised up out of the bags....Roger
)
Here is the rules from the NBRSA rule book concerning long range shooting......the IBS rules should read the same...!!??!!.
A front sandbag rest shall support the front part of a rifle; a rear sandbag rest shall support the rear part of a rifle. Neither rest can be attached to the bench, the rifle, or each other. They must be movable in all directions independently of the other. Any part of the rifle resting thereon must maintain a minimum of 1⁄2 inch distance from any part of the retainer or container holding the sandbag on which the rifle rests. Whenever the rifle makes contact on its sides, there must be a minimum 1⁄2 inch thick sand on each side. Sandbags on front rest must be a minimum of 1 1⁄2 inches wide by 4 inches long. Rear rest sandbags must be a minimum of 1 1⁄2 inches wide by 3 inches long. No device of any kind can restrict the upward and/or rearward movement of the rifle. Any sandbag used as a rest that is not supported by a retainer and that has movement without restraint need not comply with this rule.
 
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Ok, I just did a couple of experiments. I took the top out of the pedistal and just set it on the table on the post and set each of my light guns on it as level as I could by elevating the back of the gun. Baiscly my gun was balanced on a book in the rear and sitting on the windage top supported by nothing...just ballance on the elevation post on the table. I then proceded to pound the krap out of everything...just like a match.. I tightend the sides of the bags (the ears) just like a match...ie...tight. First test..the 1/2 inch between the stock and the rods that hold the bag to the top. I grabbed a couple of 1/2 in nuts and set them on the bar holding the bag to the top. They BARELY fit between the stock and the rods. If I tilted the gun up or down a few degrees the gun made contact with one of the nuts. Would that be legal? Well, I guess that depends on how screwed up the benches were.... how much I needed to tilt (raise or lower my bbl) the gun or how pickey the guy is with the tape measure was.. So I added a 25 thou shim...easy fix...no more questions.

The second test.....1/2 inch contact with the bag and the sides of the gun. Now with the naked eye it looks as though there might, maybe, be some contact above the 1/2 bevel on the side of the stock. I grabbed a sheet of paper and gently slid it between the bag ear and the stock. It slid well below the 1/2 inch mark by gravity alone...just slid right in there....but visualy there could be some contact. Is that legal? I suppose that again, it depends on how pickey the guys with the tape measure is. I do know that the tops of the ears on both sides of the bag don't have any sand in them....the sand has settled into the bottom of the bag, leaving a little air void in the top of the ears. It is just bag and air up there. But I need to know...would this be legal?

Third test....picking the gun up while clamped into the top. I re-pounded the krap out of the gun and the top and ears and tighten it up as before...ie...tight. I then lifted the gun up by the end of the bbl. It came strait up. The top didn't even wobble. The top it self couldn't weight more than two pounds, tops. I re-tested and got the same result....absolutly no movement of the top. I don't know how else to test. Would this be legel?

Now, have I covered everything that could get me in trouble? Like I said before....I WILL be legal...with that there is no doubt. I just need to know if there is anything I missed.
 
That was not my question. The term wide is that front to back. Do we all need to have a bag that measures 1 1/2" front to rear. And 4" wide or right to left.

Gordy Mitchell
 
"A front sand bag rest shall support the front part of a rifle: a rear sand bag rest shall support the rear
part of a rifle: neither rest can be attached to the bench, the rifle, nor each other; they must be
movable in all directions independently of the other. Any part of the rifle resting there on must
maintain a minimum of one-half inch distance from any part of the retainer or container holding the
sand bag on which the rifle rests. Whenever the rifle makes contact on its sides, there may be a
maximum of sand one-half inch high and a minimum of one-half thick on each side. Sand bags on
front rests must be a minimum of one and one-half inches wide by four inches long and rear rests
sand bags must be a minimum of one and one-half inches wide by three inches long. No device of any
kind can restrict the upward and/or rearward movement of the rifle. Any; sand bag used as a rest that
is not supported by a retainer and that has movement without restraint need not comply with this rule."

This is quite an effort to make a rule that simply describes a front bag. Why isn't the color of the bag dictated?

When you get down to it, 2 things matter, a minimum of 1/2" of sand thickness all the way around, and the bag cannot restrict the rifle from being picked straight up freely out of the bag. Very easy to be checked by the referees before each match.

I agree with expiper, making a short range front rest/bag illegal does nothing more than further alienate the long range game from the rest of the shooters. Of course, maybe that is the intent....
 
OK guys here is another RULE to ponder? General rules Heavy and light PA. rule book. Page 13 rule 43.0 A sand bag is a bag with a cover that can be easily flexed by the fingers, the contents of which shall be a finely -divided, granular, non-metallic substance, such as sand,gravel,or grain, each without additive, and packed loosely enough so that the bag with contents can be easily deformed by pressure of the fingers. This is another gray area that is not enforced, if it were we would probably all get DQ'd. Does it mean after the gun has been pounded into the bag or before.

Joe Salt
 
If we are on front bag rule how would a NEO with 3 bags be legal? and how can you DQ. somebody for weight,when no master weight is there? I did have my scale checked by weights and measures and it's right on except the left front of the platform and it's 1/100 light and the gun showed 1 oz. light and the scale at the match showed 1 oz. heavy. Now that a gray area? I think the rule book need updated
for some of the newer equipment out there.jim
 
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Jim,
IBS rules require that the range have certified check weights.
Tournament Procedures:
I)
Inspection of Equipment
1)
A scale with certified weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches. A certified weight is one certified by a State Agency or a private company offering certified weights.
I think check weights used by most ranges are verified rather than certified since a brass check weight cannot be certified since it does not meet the federal requrements for a "certified weight".

You are allowed to be up to 1 oz heavy for IBS Light Gun Class but no more.

James
 
Chisolm said:
You are allowed to be up to 1 oz heavy for IBS Light Gun Class but no more.

James
Click to expand...

The above statement is incorrect.
IBS rules allow one oz for scale error in all classes, there is a difference. If your Rifle is one oz heavy and the scale is reading one oz heavy you will be ruled overweight. Building your rifle overweight is a certain path to problems.

Dick Grosbier
 
Dick,

I did not mean that you can intentionally build a rifle that weighs 1 oz over, it would certainly catch up to you at some point. What I meant was that at the match your rifle can weigh on the range scale up to 1 oz over and still be legal
What you said is that if the scale reads 1 oz heavy you are overweight.

Therefore you are saying this is another rule that should be ignored.
You can't pick and choose which rules to enforce and which to ignore no matter how long you have been shooting IBS. The rulebook is there so all shooters can know the rules and what is expected.

IBS rule book says.
In weighing rifles with scope attached an excess of one ounce shall be attributed to scale error.

James
 
So the question is why does everyone have to push the rules till they get DQ'd ? There is no advantage to a few ounces, or inches of sand. so why piss everyone else off in the club that will have to DQ you, now they look like the bad guys. And this goes for all rules, so read them and if you still don't get it read them again.

Joe Salt
 
I see every body side stepped the the part about the NEO for long range, the rule book as stated says bag. For your info. my scale was checked by a weight and the gun was an oz. light, but at the first match one scale had it 2 oz. heavy and one 1 oz. heavy that is a 2-3 oz. difference from a certified scale, and i saw no weight or certified scale at the national.The IBS does not have a certified weight....jim
 
Joe Salt said:
So the question is why does everyone have to push the rules till they get DQ'd ? There is no advantage to a few ounces, or inches of sand. so why piss everyone else off in the club that will have to DQ you, now they look like the bad guys. And this goes for all rules, so read them and if you still don't get it read them again.

Joe Salt
Click to expand...

He did read them.....it says 17 Lb's, with an extra oz allowed due to scale error. The rule is "17 lbs".......not "17 lb's minus 10% just in case a scale is messed up and nobodys feelings get hurt because there is no advantage to a few oz".

I have never had a problem with the scales at matches. I have only been to 5 clubs, but seem to remember a check weight sitting near the scales at all of them....I could be wrong on that. My guns are right at 17 lbs...(one is 16.91 LBS and the other is 16.72 lbs..weighed on a certified scale) . I would think that there are lots of people who use custom actions who are in the same boat as me. So, now am I the bad guy because I followed, or in your words..pushed, the rules?

The only problem I ever saw at a match was when they were weighing guns outside...in the wind....some said that they were way lite...some said heavy. I do remember the numbers on the scale were moving up and down by a few oz with the gun just sitting there. Wasn't a problem...just moved the scale inside. Problem solved.
 
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Tod like the scale at the Nationals out side, even in the wind mine didn't even move it. Mine only weighed in at 15.72 on a good day! All I'm saying is just comply with the rules, at our club when I hear somone say they changed something on the gun, I tell them go weigh it before they shoot! Our scales are in the club house a you can use them when ever with the weights next to them. So all I can say if you know you have an issue fix it. No one has commented on the bag being flexed with your fingers, gun in or out?

Joe Salt
 
Joe,

I had no issues at the nats lasts year either. This was a few years back at Iowa. It wasn't even an issue....just an observation. And, you are 100% right....if you change ANYTHING on your equipment, it is your own respnsability to make sure it meets the rules....BEFORE you get to the match. If you didn't and you DQ....it's your own fault. None of the match directors should feel bad about that. If it were my own club I would invite the shooter to shoot anyway (if there was room)...just not elegable to win relays or points.

I guess one question I have is the actual prcess.....WHEN is the right time to weigh in. I see some of the matches that weigh in AFTER the shooting is done. That seems backward to me...kinda like being in a prize fight and weighing in after the fight.
 
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Tod, my gun on a certified scale was .01 less than yours but it weighed over, i did change the rings and lightened up for the next one. I do know they,, the IBS. doesn't have a weight and there was none present at the national. If it was it wasn't around the old beam scale they used.
Like the NEO i had one but i was told it wasn't legal at Williamsport because of the three piece bag but i know people that used them but the rule still shows bag ,single bag. Ibs is the same it shows bag,if this is legal fine, good but change the rule book to show that, then every knows. In long range it states 17 Lb. All i'm saying thing need up dated and there would be less gray area..... jim
 
I can't see why Seb's NEO wouldn't be legal in IBS. Pennsylvania is a different story; they have -- or at least had -- a rule that all rests had to be run by the rest committee.

The IBS rules, not just for bags, were originally taken from the Pennsylvania club. That's the history. Over the years, some have changed -- and to their credit, Pennsylvania has examined the IBS changes, and by in large adopted them.

But the rest rules remain essentially unchanged from the original Pennsylvania ones.

By the way, multiple bags were used in IBS matches by both Joel Pendergraft and Charles Bailey, no issues. Joel still holds the IBS HG group record, and Charles Bailey was shooter of the year. It's not like their setups were unknown.

Joel also shot at the World Open a couple of times, again, no complaints from them.

You need to remember that IBS can't just "change" the rules. That takes membership initiation. All Dave Tooley & Lee could do was to "clarify" the rule.

It would be smart to rewrite the front bag rule. At the time it was written (at the Pennsylvania club) people were all sweaty about stopping any form of return to battery guns, not only at Pennsylvania, but generally in the NBRSA and IBS. Lots of ink put on paper to try and stop any and all attempts.

Since then, a lot of development has been done on rests and bags, including the joystick rest. Essentially, it is all aimed at letting people shoot faster, easier. Why do you think aggs have been coming down in point-blank BR?

If people are still worried about any hint of return to battery, keep something like the current rule, with all it's problems. It's the "hint" part that's a problem. You just don't get RTB with sand, you always have to check your sight. If you've shot much benchrest using a rail gun -- return to battery -- you know the difference. It's the people who've never shot a true RTB that worry.

Look at Rimfire. They say "sandbag," but no rule about deflection. They just pack heat-shrink tubing full of sand, it's hard as a rock.

Funny think about "rock-hard" sandbags. Thre is even talk about the effect on accuracy using too-hard bags.

From my perspective, for an enforceable set of rules, just keep the 1/2 inch of sandbag between the bag & it's container, but get rid of the "deflection" rule (too hard to test and enforce) and 1/2" inch up the side of the stock rule (takes out too many setups legal in other benchrest sports). Far as I'm concerned, if somebody wants to clamp their forearm to a rock-hard bag, let them. Hard to make a rifle shoot that way. You could keep the "lift it out of the bag without bringing the rest along" part, that's easy to check as well.

But remember that if you want to change an IBS rule, you have to write it up, get signatures, & get it before the appropriate commitee. No other way to get it done.
 
Charles, The rules are changed or new equipment is now legal, the rule buck should follow that in writing. The NEO. has three bags but the book has bag. If you are a new shooter you are lost even old shooter think the 1 oz. rule pertains to long range.....jim
 
jim1K said:
Charles, The rules are changed or new equipment is now legal, the rule buck should follow that in writing. The NEO. has three bags but the book has bag. If you are a new shooter you are lost even old shooter think the 1 oz. rule pertains to long range.....jim
Click to expand...

The rules have not been changed. Here is a picture of Joel Pendergraft's HG, which shows his front rest. Note the two bags. It is similar to Charles Bailey's HG. (CB was shooter of the year in the early 2000s Edit: maybe the late 1990s)

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ets-new-ibs-1000-yard-heavy-gun-world-record/

Somebody is trying to make too much out out *bag* versus *bags*

IIRC, there is a Sinclair top with "three" bags, too, like the Seb. Been used for years & years.

I'd be curious who told you the Seb rest was illegal for IBS (not Pennsylvania) shooting. I'd bet it wasn't someone speaking officially from the long-range committee.

Another edit -- Can't remember for sure, but Steve & Jamie Cass may have used multiple bags on their front HG rests too. As I said, somebody's just trying to make too much out of the singular form. When it is meant, the language used usually emphasizes this, as in "one bag only..." or "a single bag..."
 
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