I need Some Help On Defining a "Stock"

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
I have been asked this several times, so I thought I would open a discussion and get some opinions.

At our Tomball Club Matches, I have three classes. Factory, which means no mods other than bedding and trigger adjusmant, no solid bottom Factory Target Actions Rifles (mainly, 40x and the Savage F-Class). These can shoot in Modified.

Benchrest, which I kept simple by saying "any legal firearm".

The Modified Class is where I have a problem. The Action has to have a magazine cutout, but it can be a "custom", such as the Stiller Predetor. The stock rule says, "no wider than a 2.5 inch forearm, and anything that is deemed a "Benchrest Stock" would not be allowed".

There in lies the problem. For instance, the Shehane Tracker, is a very popular stock with the Live Varmint Shooters, and seems to be a good choice to build a "Modified" on. But, is it a "Benchrest" stock. Another example would be if a Shooter simply ordered a BRX with a 2.5 forearm. Would that be legal?

See my delima. My whole idea behind the "Modified Class" was a shooter taking a Factory Rifle, adding a custom barrel, trigger, stock, etc, and having a class to shoot without having to compete agains all out Benchrest Rifles.

Give me some help. I want to keep things on an even keel, and I certainly do not want to be put in the position of telling a shooter that he has to shoot the next class up AFTER he has just spent a lot of his hard earned money building a Rifle that he thought would qualify for the Modified Class.

I have the final say, but it doesn't hurt to get ideas from the actual participants........jackie
 
Jackie,
I can see where you are going to have a problem defining the "modified" class. For instance I have a Savage 12BVSS. It is a single shot and came out right after Savage introduced the accu-trigger. It has no magazine cut out. If it had the original barrel on it it would be pure factory stock. It has a Lothar Walther barrel on it chambered in .223, factory chamber, factory contour, no tight neck, etc. Now I suppose it would fit in the modified because of the LW barrel, but no mag cut out. :confused::confused: Where would it fit?

Donald
 
jwa said:
Make the forend convex, flat bottom not allowed.
Jerry
Click to expand...

Jackie,

I shot your last match in modified with a hunter silhouette rifle. I did notice that it looked like every other gun in the class had a flat BR style stock. Were they all supposed to be 2-1/2" wide or less? I was not concerned with what they were shooting but it looked like a BR class rifle with factory actions. I still had fun and now have a better idea of how my rifle can compete off the bench. It did OK but is defiantly is not a BR class rifle, which did not surprise me.

Even though I was not competitive with the guns I was up against, I would still try it again.

See you next month, Paul
 
Define "Convex"

A legal NBRSA Hunter Benchrest Stock has to have a convex forarm, but the book says nothing about how much. If you take a look at most of the popular ones, you have to lay a straightedge on it to detect any, since it is so slight.

My whole idea behind the Modified Class was the typical Remington, Savage, Winchester, etc, that a shooter has added a custom barrel, trigger, stock, etc. It is NOT intended to be an all out Benchrest Rifle with the Forearm shaved down to 2.5 inches.

There are thousands of Rifles out there that fit perfectly into the Modified Class. Every shooter probably has one in the Gun Case.. But, so for, it has been the class with the least number of shooters. I have more Factory and Benchrest Shooters.

I really do not want to get into too many "rules", the whole idea behind our matches is to keep it simple and not clogged all up with a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that tends to discourage shooters. This concept seems to be working, as the turnout is pretty darned good, and everybody seems to be having a good time...........JACKIE
 
That's because it should be OK to have

a Benchrest Stock in Modified Class. Why can you modify everything but the stock ? It just needs to be 2.5 inch or less....

Jerry R.
 
Jackie,

I shoot 1K benchrest with rifles that have Remington LA repeater actions with a mag cutout as they all do. My barrel block HG has not even had the action trued. It finished 3rd in the IBS Nats one year with Larry Jones steering it. My LG has collected 10 match aggs a couple of times at Hawks Ridge and shot the small group of the year at Virginia once. I think they are BR rifles and some of the folks I shoot with think so also.

So given the prism through which I see the world, a custom action, custom 2 1/2" stock, Jewel trigger, custom barrel and pro built live varmint rig sounds suspiciously like a BR rifle.

Maybe a modified rifle could include an aftermarket barrel and front bag rider but should be limited to factory action, stock and trigger, modificaton allowed of course.

Just a thought. Just tell me the rules and I'll play!

Greg
 
I think the best remedy is to require the stock "not" have any acute/or right angles and flats on the bottom and side of the forend or buttstock...ensure it is rounded with an obivious radius from the bottom around the sides very similar to the 40x rangemaster...most of the factory varminters utilize this design...
 
Jerry

One of the defining aspects of a Benchrest Rifle is the flat, 3 inch wide forearm. Most "civilian" custom Rifles do not use these, mainly because they are not practicle for other aspects of shooting.

I have seen shooters with 700 actions chambered in 6PPC mounted in a Benchrest Stock shoot teen aggs. We are just trying to deferentiate between the classes, so as to give the shooter who has a nice custom that he does not consider a Benchrest Rifle a class to shoot in where he can compete against like Rifles.

It is easy with Factory and Benchrest Class. And it isn't even a matter of cost. I know shooters who spend just as much, if not more, on their custom Live Varmint Rifles than I do my Benchrest Rifles............jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
One of the defining aspects of a Benchrest Rifle is the flat, 3 inch wide forearm.............jackie
Click to expand...
Or a flat 2.25 inch forearm. I have a NBRSA Hunter class rifle -- old rules, with "Factory" action" -- that will pretty much shoot with the BR guns if you top it with a 36x scope. You probably wouldn't want it in your modified class.

We shot a Modified class at the Rockingham Winter League a couple of years back. At least one of the modified rifles would have been in the top 5 of the BR class just about every match. I believe it had a Remington action, but the rest of it either was, or was was real close to, a 600-yard BR rifle. A lot of "Factory" actions in 600 an 1,000 yard BR guns. You're going to have to bar them from the Modified class by stock rules, I think.

A "modified" class is tricky business.
 
Most of the Modified classes I have seen, are really a catch -all for what
is not BR or factory. Factories that have custom barrels. Custom chamberings
tighter necks and then there are the rifles that although factory,are just
a step above. Some latitude is called for there. A modified gun only requireing
a 2 1/2 in wide stock could be BR in disguise. esentially it would cost about the same as a Br gun. What is best for the club matters
 
2 1/2" stock

Jackie, I think the 2 1/2" stock makes for a pretty good class break. My 6BR is a remington 700, Kiff bolt, action trued, Jewel trigger, custom barrel, etc. The stock is 2.5 wide but the buttstock is more sporter like including a cheekpiece. It has been pretty successful in the modified class but will not quite run with the benchrest rifles. My take is that if the foreend is 3" wide or better, it goes in the benchrest class. My long range rifle has a 3.5" wide foreend. I would expect to have to shoot it in the benchrest class.

Joe
 
Joe Duke said:
Jackie, I think the 2 1/2" stock makes for a pretty good class break. Joe
Click to expand...
Joe, try this thought. Take a full-blown benchrest rifle, and take 1/4 inch off the forearm on each side. You think it can no longer compete with other bench guns?

If you require the forearm to be "not flat" on the bottom, at least you give the shooter another thing to pay attention to.

The whole point of a modified class should be to have a class where people with existing guns can compete at local matches. As soon as you have people building rifles for this class, you get into the whole problem of needing a bunch of well thought out rules.

You could take a completely different tack -- Factory and Modified shoot on a relay with no wind flags -- that would be more like the sporting situation. Of course, the problem would then be setting and taking down flags for the BR shooters . . .
 
Rules!?! We don't need no stinkin' rules!

Isn't the art of Benchrest pushing the rules? What a wonderful caldron for cooking the rule book Modified Class is.

The other option would be to make the dividing line be performance. 'Graduate' the winner of 3 or more matches into the next class. This would serve two purposes; one, the shooter would 'rise' to the appropriate level to compete and learn from his 'peers' - I am here to learn and have fun and second, it handles the big turd in the small bowl syndrome I have seen in other disciplines.

This deal is supposed to be fun and push the boundaries of accuracy [and insanity]. Let's have fun.

Russ
 
Charles E said:
Joe, try this thought. Take a full-blown benchrest rifle, and take 1/4 inch off the forearm on each side. You think it can no longer compete with other bench guns?

If you require the forearm to be "not flat" on the bottom, at least you give the shooter another thing to pay attention to.

The whole point of a modified class should be to have a class where people with existing guns can compete at local matches. As soon as you have people building rifles for this class, you get into the whole problem of needing a bunch of well thought out rules.

You could take a completely different tack -- Factory and Modified shoot on a relay with no wind flags -- that would be more like the sporting situation. Of course, the problem would then be setting and taking down flags for the BR shooters . . .
Click to expand...


I have no doubt that given the right rifle, the 2.5" stock can be competitive. If they couldn't, the hunter class rifles would not shoot like they do. It's just that in the interest of keeping it simple, this makes a pretty fair dividing line.

The rounded bottom requirement could also be used and does give the shooter another thing to think about. But, do we want them to be worrying about handicaps or learning to shoot better?

I have also tested the theory about no wind flags. :eek: About half the time, I forget to take mine and have to rely on looking at the flags of others around me. (My granddaughter shot a 247 - 8x with the rifle at the last match and I am pretty sure she was not paying much attention to flags since I had forgotten mine.)

Joe
 
Modified Class Stock Rules

Actually, overnight I had a crazy different thought. Given that the match is a 100 yard score match, you could restrict the benchrest class to a legal "NBRSA / IBS VFS" rifle requirement and then call everything else that showed up a "modified" rifle. There are a well defined set of rules that govern these VFS rifles.

Probably would not work much better or even much differently but it gets around trying to define a rifle that may mean something different to everyone that shows up.

Also, sooner or later, every class that you might define has the potential to evolve into an equipment race. Happens all the time. Some of it will take care of itself. I was successful shooting the modified class but have now moved up to the benchrest class with a full blown 30BR. The rifle shoots good but "I" shoot middle of the pack. I will get better.

Joe
 
Jackie, I didn't read the whole thread but how about making the cut off 2 1/4"
instead of 2 1/2". That would eliminate the Hunter class stocks etc.
 
Joe Duke said:
Actually, overnight I had a crazy different thought. Given that the match is a 100 yard score match, you could restrict the benchrest class to a legal "NBRSA / IBS VFS" rifle requirement and then call everything else that showed up a "modified" rifle. There are a well defined set of rules that govern these VFS rifles.
Click to expand...
AFAIK, there aren't any 600 yard matches near Tomball, but if there were, you'd let in all the 600 yard guns as "modified." Believe me, you don't want to do that.

It all depends on what you're trying to do. If Factory and Modified classes are seen as stepping stones to getting folks to becoming benchrest shooters, it is probably better to simply limit the number of years they can compete in those classes. Two years and out. Now if somebody wants to lay out $3,000 for an edge in a class, well, so be it.

I think this is more of less what Jackie is after.

On the other hand, if you want to develop new classes of benchrest shooters, you're going to have to come up with a full set of rules.

* * *

No matter what the break point in equipment, somebody willing to spend can come up with a technical edge. It's true in full benchrest, too -- March scopes, $100 wind flags, & on & on. Just remember that such an edge does not translate into "always winning."
 
Charles E said:
AFAIK, there aren't any 600 yard matches near Tomball, but if there were, you'd let in all the 600 yard guns as "modified." Believe me, you don't want to do that.

It all depends on what you're trying to do. If Factory and Modified classes are seen as stepping stones to getting folks to becoming benchrest shooters, it is probably better to simply limit the number of years they can compete in those classes. Two years and out. Now if somebody wants to lay out $3,000 for an edge in a class, well, so be it.

I think this is more of less what Jackie is after.

On the other hand, if you want to develop new classes of benchrest shooters, you're going to have to come up with a full set of rules.

* * *

No matter what the break point in equipment, somebody willing to spend can come up with a technical edge. It's true in full benchrest, too -- March scopes, $100 wind flags, & on & on. Just remember that such an edge does not translate into "always winning."
Click to expand...

Agreed that it would let in lots of rifles. Thats why I said it probably wouldn't work any better; just be easier to define. :)

And I do think Jackie is trying to develop new benchrest shooter by giving them a venue to get their feet wet. I probably fit what he wants.
I showed up at the first couple of matches and shot my old 70's era HV .222 and was not in the hunt. So, I shot my 6BR in the modified class until I got my 30BR built. Had a blast with each rifle and moved on up.

Joe
 
Jackie,
This is from the IR 50/50 rimfire rules:
Any area of the stock that comes in contact with front and rear sandbags must be convex. Convex will be determined by placing a penny on the stock where convex shaping is required. The outer edges of the penny can not come in contact with the stock in the dimension being measured (see picture below). There must be visible space underneath the outer edges of the penny. If the outer edges of the penny exceed the width of the dimension in question the area must be clearly convex to the referees. The underside of the forend that contacts the sandbag must be convex across the entire width.
Jerry
 
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