Hydraulic Forming

RLHBUSL

New member
How many people have used Hornady's hydraulic forming die to make 6ppc brass to shoot in Benchrest Competition? What are you opinions on the process? Do you ultimately end up with brass as straight as you otherwise would using more traditional methods?

I understand that the brass will still need to be fired in the chamber before shooting a record shot in competition. (I would still do this even if I had a dedicated fire-forming barrel - which I currently do not). It seems to me this method could eliminate one round of "fire-forming," but, I don't want to use this method if there is even the slightest detriment to accuracy.

Thanks for any advice you might be able to offer.

Ryan
 
I would like to hear if anybody is using it to make Dashers out of BRs.
 
i haven't shot competition an make neither 6mm or dasher... but i do make 250 humdingers , i had a set of hydraulics made about a yr ago +/- i think its better the fire forming any day of the week, especial now with the shortage of components an the prices..
the very best thing to do is to have a matching FL die made at the same time because it should be made the same size as your chamber .. so the second step [FL sizing] brings the case to near 99% formed
i had ben syrling make my die set, lonne just happened to on vacation at the time, ben did a great job an had followed up on my all question an any problems i had when i first started.. once you get the hang of using the form die, it goes very smooth.. no barrels to wear or clean i tried the oat meal thing forgetitaboutit.. what i did find was that new brass forms so much easier then fired unless you want to anneal your old cases..
the 250H is based on the 308 case [ nothing around has 45* shoulder i can buy].. which took acouple of steps to get down from .30 to .25 cal. .. i found using 243's was better go up then coming down i tried 7X57's to... then i had a brain fart an purchased .260 brass which now is a one shot deal..pun... no extra steps works perfect
as critical as most of you are, i don't know if or how much case run out [if any]? there mite be don't see how either ? .. not actually having the tools to check with i can't say.. you could give ben syrling or lonnea hummel call at hornady they would be glad to help i'm sure.. 800 338 3220 - ben's ext 261
 
I am ignorant of this concept, went to the Hornady site, no info.

How does this work??.........jackie

Jackie,

See http://accurateshooter.com/bulletin.html. Scroll down to March 22, 2009 "Tech Tip" to see pictures. The text of the article is pasted below.

March 22, 2009
TECH TIP: Form Improved Cases with Hydraulic Forming Die
Filed under: New Product, Reloading — Tags: Form Die, Hydraulic, Improved — Editor @ 10 am
We know many of our readers shoot the 6 BRX, 6 Dasher, 6mm Rem AI, .243 Ackley and other “improved cartridges” that require case-forming. These wildcat designs move the shoulder forward, or alter the shoulder angle and/or body taper. Traditionally, these cases are fire-formed, i.e. a charge of powder is used to blow the shoulder forward and casewalls out. There are different methods of fire-forming. Some guys use a full load of rifle powder, with bullets seated hard in the lands (setting up a false shoulder helps too). Other shooters successfully fire-form without bullets, using fast pistol powders (and a much-reduced charge). Typically, with this bulletless fire-forming, a filler such as Grits is used, along with some kind of plug or wad to hold the powder in the case.

Fire-forming takes time, and consumes expensive powder, primers, and (typically) bullets. Unless you have a dedicated fire-forming barrel, the fire-forming process can use up a significant amount of your useful barrel life, particularly if you are a varminter needing hundreds of re-formed cases. What if you could form your cases at home, at your reloading bench, without burning powder or wasting barrel life? Well you can…

Hydraulic Case-Forming with Hornady Die
Now, thanks to Hornady, shooters who need to “improve” their cases have a bonafied alternative to fire-forming. Hornady’s custom shop offers a hydraulic case-forming kit that allows you to form cases just using water and a conventional reloading press.

Because fluids, such as water, are not compressible, you can use hydraulic action to change the shape of your brass in a die. As a ram or piston moves the fluid in the die, hydraulic pressure pushes the shoulder and case walls out to match the “improved” case profile machined into the Hornady die. What you’ll get is a re-formed case with a near-perfect neck-shoulder junction, but with slightly rounded edges where the case body meets the shoulder. However, the edges of the shoulder will normally sharpen up once you shoot the brass for the first time with a full load.

Tips for Hydraulic Case-Forming
The process works well… as long as you understand that it will take a final fire-forming stage to fully “blow out” the brass. The hydraulic process gets you 95% of the way there. Lonnie Hummel, technician of Hornady’s Custom Shop, uses a hydraulic forming die himself to produce his wildcat varmint cases. Lonnie recommends using regular water as the hydraulic fluid, but other shooters have used isopropyl alcohol, and some guys have used light machine oil. The different fluid choices have pros and cons. With water, you have to be careful to dry out the forming die so it doesn’t rust. With oil you have to make sure you remove ALL the oil from the case before firing. That’s very important for safety and to ensure you don’t “kill” your primers. Alcohol seems to work well, but again you want to make sure residues are removed, so that any residual alcohol does not contaminate primers or powder.

Ordering a Hydraulic Forming Die
Hornady hydraulic forming dies are produced on a custom basis. You need to supply a reamer print or some “finished” cases that have been fully fire-formed in your chamber. Then Hornady can build a die that matches your improved or wildcat chamber. Also, after heat-treating, each die is custom-honed so there is a super-close fit with the shaft of the hydraulic piston.

How much will it cost? Prices vary depending on the size of the parent cartridge: for cases up to 2.6″, the cost is $165.00; for cases over 2.6″ up to 2.9″ the price is $185.00. These prices are for the complete Hornady Hydraulic Forming Kit, which includes Die Body, Lock Ring, Hydraulic Piston, and a special shellholder (without a center hole).

For more information contact Lonnie Hummel at Hornady. Call (308) 382-1390 and ask for the Custom Shop or email: lhummel [at] hornady.com. NOTE: You will NOT see this product listed or illustrated on Hornady’s website. Hydraulic form dies are special order items.
 
I used it to make the 20 Killer Bee brass shown in the article on 6mm BR. the brass still must be fire formed, with larger cases I think it would work better.
It gets you closer and works.

ML
 
Thanks Guys

That looks pretty neat. On the site that I went to, they showed a picture of a little 219 Bee radically formed into a straight wall case with a 40 degree shoulder.

That looks about as radical as the forming of a 220 Russian into a 6PPC.

I think where the catch comes in is that the case shown is still the same caliber. If the proccess also includes the neck expanding, does it still work the same.

I guess I will give Hornady a call............jackie
 
How many people have used Hornady's hydraulic forming die to make 6ppc brass to shoot in Benchrest Competition? What are you opinions on the process? Do you ultimately end up with brass as straight as you otherwise would using more traditional methods?

I understand that the brass will still need to be fired in the chamber before shooting a record shot in competition. (I would still do this even if I had a dedicated fire-forming barrel - which I currently do not). It seems to me this method could eliminate one round of "fire-forming," but, I don't want to use this method if there is even the slightest detriment to accuracy.

Thanks for any advice you might be able to offer.

Ryan

Ryan
I'll let you know. I'm ordering one for my PPC. Tried of wasting power and bullets....Bryn
 
I have used it for the Dasher

I have a write-up in next month's Precision Shooting. Mine is for the 6mm Dasher. Here is a picture. James
 

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Forming Cases

The reason this might interest me is I do blow my cases out before I neck turn, mainly because I can see exactly where the neck shoulder junction will be, and they come out dead straight.

If this will accomplish the same thing without the powder and "bang", well, that speaks for its self.........jackie
 
Unless it does better than fire forming with pistol powder and cream of wheat, then I'll stick to the wheat.
 
Gibbs hydraulic case former........

Information on this tool can be found in "Gibbs' Cartridges and Front Ignition Loading Technique ".

51wPGMVr3VL._SS500_.jpg


Glenn:D
 
I just finished building a hydraulic die, as for does it work the answer is yes it does and the cases came out with similar results as the article in accurateshooter. I didn’t have the ability to grind the piston for closer fit so I turned it. I guess that using heavier oil instead of water might have worked better for the clearances that I have between the piston and body and may try that at a later date. I have a new .223 AI Manson reamer that I wanted to season before I cut a finished chamber and this was a good candidate for that reason. I suppose that a more difficult to form case would be a better choice but for all the effort involved I would opt for the conventional way to form cases. With that said it was an interesting, fun project and would recommend it to anyone wishing to try it. I have posted it on my site ( rickaverill.com ) under projects past and present with pictures.

Rick
 

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Hey Rick how about machining a groove for a o-ring or a seal around the shaft? Might be something to look at. I have read about this method but it seems like it would make quite a mess.

Joe Hynes
 
A couple of things to add to the article.

1. Both guys at Hornady (Lonnie and Ben) use water with the die. Ben is the guy who makes the die. He hones the hole in the top of each die to closely match the "punch" or what I called the "hydraulic" piston. Ben sizes the punch length for each case so the shaft will NOT hit the bottom of the case.

2. You need to put a spent primer in the bottom of each case.

3. You can speed up the process by putting a bunch of cases in a loading rack and filling them all up with water first.

4. As Mock's second photo shows, the way it works is that you hit the top of the punch with a mallet or hammer. The Hornady guys use a lead hammer and "give it 2 or 3 good wacks".

5. There can be a little water leakage. Ben wraps a rag around the top before he "hammers" the die.
 
Joe,
I suppose it would be possible but I do not have the means to do that. I searched for info on the subject and couldn’t find anything so I winged it, good old shadetree engineering. There are some different things I would like to try and if the snow was up to my a$$ I would do it but the good weather is too close. I didn’t have a shell holder and didn’t want to try it in my reloading room so I ended up clamping everything in my bench vise to try it and yes it was a mess. Not as bad as I thought though, I had more water spilled trying to fill the cases than after whacking it, one thing to remember the case has to have a primer in it to seal. I understand that the military brass that is decapped uses this same process; they fill the case with water and hammer a plunger in it to pop the primer out. I think it boils down to having the right equipment to accomplish the right end results, if you don’t have the means to grind the piston to a close fit to the die you are going to get leakage.

Rick
 
So then differant brands/lots or neck turned brass would need a dedicated piston diameter to seal up right ?
 
Roger T,
That would be tough for me to answer; I would guess but would need to experiment with it further. The guy’s at Hornady have done the leg work and perfected it; I just attempted to figure out what they did. For my purposes the .223 AI isn’t worth the effort but some of the other more radical improved cartridges or wildcats would benefit.

Rick
 
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