How to use Bukys TSI Tuners

Lynn said:
Vibe
Your biggest problem with understanding what Bill Calfee has to say has nothing to do with his writing style or the terminology he uses.You need to follow his instructions on any gun you have and you can then comeback and post about his/your great breakthrough.Gene's gun is shooting very well and line 7 is correct in my humble opinion.
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Sorry Lynn. I've seen no evidence that you understand what my biggest problem is as of yet. I suppose what it really is, is that I (and several others) understand what he is "saying" much better than he understands what he's actually been "doing".

Lynn said:
P.S. Vibe what Gene is describing is actually referred to as bouncing off of the parallel node.
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Which further demonstrates my statements - according to Genes example - the "parallel node" can be no more than 0.010" long in length - and there should be no other sweet spots outside of that region. This being quite obviously not the case - the subject "should" be settled enough to move on - and luckily, for some, (like Gene) it is.
 
Vibe
7 years ago 95% of the posters right here who are now advocates of tuners were burning Ole Bill Calfee at the stake.I was not one of them for the simple reason I read his posts and simply tried one out.My conclusion 7 years ago was let the man speak.What was your opinion 7 years ago?
All Bill Calfee is saying is when properly set-up the tuner has more "width" to it and doesn't need to be constantly moved.
Your lack of getting what he has been saying for 7 years now has me baffled and I have posted to you many times on it.You simply don't understand what he is yelling in your ear.
Lynn
You still think it needs to be moved all day long and Gene is not in agreement with You nor is Bill Calfee.

P.S.Is Genes tuner which by the way is out in front of the muzzle at the node?
 
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Lynn I need to let you in on a secret here,Lets get to down to the very physics of this .Calfee has never done a true no tune for this very reason.First a tuner not even Calfee"s will not fix a high frequency pulse from case explosion in the chamber,nor will it majicly bypass the muzzle through the dead spot when the barrel is in a natural state which is well after the bullet is gone. Only powder charge change[exit timing] will fix that and will not even come close to dampining the pulses ,they are incredibly strong.On a centerfire there will be aprox.5-7 pulses hitting the muzzle before the bullets exit,so think of this as being windows or accuracy in between for bullet exit times that you will adjust exit timing with powder and the tuner for the vertical whip or muzzle position at the exit,on rimfires there is 3 times more pulses hitting the muzzle before the bullet exits ,which considerably narrows these windows of acccuracy so the tune window is virtually unseen compaired to centerfire, Calfee said you cannot do a no tune with a simple recessed crown but he could not be more wriong,It is the ONLY way to make the tune infinite but not soley to the elimination of the tuner but more to the reduction of high frequency issues caused by the components of the rifle and rimfires are the very worst simply by design and the in bore speeds involved.Point being especially on a rimifire even bills as long as a multiple parts on a muzzle you will always have to adjust ,but stills works just fine otherwise . So if any centerfire or rimfire shooter claims to have a rifle he does not have to adjust with any multi part tuner on that barrel I know better now. Tim in Tx
 
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Lynn said:
Vibe
7 years ago 95% of the posters right here who are now advocates of tuners were burning Ole Bill Calfee at the stake.I was not one of them ?
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Nor was I one of the 95%. I have two friends who own $10,000 Calfee rimfires, one of them has three!! Does he know what he is doing and why? Dunno. But he knows how to build and sell rimfire benchrest rifles.

Has it been 7 years? 2005-2012, I guess so.
 
Tim In Texas
Tony Harper dominated rimfire benchrest last year with a Calfee gun and never adjusted his tuner once it was set.
If your constantly changing your tuner there is something wrong with your set-up.
When the short range guys are constantly playing with the seating depth they are adjusting for velocity variations in there ammo.Your tuner if it is set-up correctly will do what changing your seating depth used to do.
If Vibe would install a tuner so the node was at the muzzle he could vary the weight in and out and quickly grasp what Bill is saying but in scientific notation.
I believe he would find that the widest tune is found there but it is also the "most repeatable" tune.
Repeatability is what Bill has and Vibe is closest too but not quite there yet.
Lynn
 
Lynn,
There is one other fly in the ointment, that has nothing to do with Calfeeisms, or even their translations. His system works within the reality of weight limits that are different than those that most common CF short range benchrest rifles have to live within (10.5#), and it seems that the greater pressures and other forces associated with the common caliber in that sport seem to preclude the use of typical rimfire barel contours, and lenghhs. For these reasons, if nothing else, tuners, in this specific application, may not be able to be configured to do what can be done in rimfire, or CF applications that have significantly higher weight limits. Obviously, this is just an opinion, but I am not aware of any successful rifle of this type that proves it wrong. I bring this up primarily because the tuner that is the subject is used on a 10.5# 6PPC.
Boyd
 
I have no experience with tuners yet, so I really have no business weighing in on whether a tuner can be adjusted and left alone or needs to be tweaked. What I do know is comparing a rimfire rifle to a centerfire rifle is MOST DEFINATELY NOT comparing apples to apples. That would be like saying a 4 cylinder with turbo is equal to an 8 cylinder with a turbo.

Like I said there are different camps out there. People will tend to gravitate towards a camp and follow it. This thread is not meant to start a debate on whose camp is better or whose camp is right.

The facts are Calfee has his thoughts on a tuner and what is required to make them work. He is primarily a rimfire builder.

Then there are those that say a tuner MUST be heavy to workand extend beyond the muzzle.

Then we have the Bukys/Schmidt style who adjust with a KNOWN GOOD load and lock it down adjusting with powder as the groups start to open. This is the closest to the Calfee method but the fellows who use this tuner and method still adjust the load to keep shooting small groups.

Finally there is Beggs. Go in with a known good load and adjust the tuner instead of the powder charge to stay in tune.

For every camp what they do or believe appears to work for them. With the weight restriction to a 10.5 lb 6PPC it is pretty tough to go with a heavy tuner unless you have a pencil thin barrel or have it machined like Jerry has done in the past.

As a student I tend to agree with what boyd as said in post 26. These are observations from a student of the game.

Calvin
 
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Boyd Allen
Harold Vaughn told us long ago that weight added to the muzzle was a good thing.The only debate left is what is the best weight and its location.
Calfee has this figured out for rimfires and he utilizes skinny barrels that aren't much larger in diameter than the tenon threads.
On the longrange guns like Tim and I shoot weight is not an issue so we can use Bill's experience to our own good.
In our sport any weight tuner will produce good results as long as you don't "flip" the shots in the wrong direction.
By moving the tuner out in front so the node sits at the muzzle you find one heck of a wide sweetspot that shoots so well even a guy like me can shoot small groups.
The better part of it is that it repeats itself over and over again no matter the time interval between
shots.
If you remember back Jackie tried a heavy tuner on his railgun and it only shot well when he shot it slowly.I have seen this myself and it goes away when you move the node to the muzzle.
I believe that is enough clues for Vibe to figure it all out.
Lynn
 
On Jackie having to shoot his rail slowly, with the heavy tuner, the problem is probably that the barrel continues to vibrate into the following shot, and the extra weight at the muzzle exacerbating this. I don't see how moving the weight would change this. A fast rail shooter is probably faster than any other single shot target configuration, and the rifles are probably the least well damped. Up in the northwest Eric Stanton wraps his rail barrels to damp the after shot vibrations so that they don't cause problems with following shots. Other shooters in that region have addressed the damping issue with different means, that they continue to use, reporting good results. What sort of rifle is Vibe working with? Also...any weight tuner...really...are the big ones that I see just misguided overkill? I would think that there is a relation between barrel stiffness and tuner weight, particularly when what have been described as stopped muzzles and parallel nodes are the goal.
 
Several things have become very clear lately Lynn.
1) What you claim I am saying, is not even close to anything I have ever said.
2) What you claim Bill is saying, is in fact not what he's claiming.
So the primary problem seems to be you do not listen nor read very well.
3) These centerfire guys are rapidly getting a better grip on what's actually causing a tuned condition than Bill has - and possibly even you for that matter.

Boyd. I actually don't have a rifle that a tuner would do much good on. I have data from everyone who posts, I have a fairly good history as a machine designer and engineer, and physics was one of my favorite subjects in college. So my basic problem with Bills alleged theory is only that it requires the rifle to defy the way metal generally behaves. Which I don't understand why he has to insist upon, since looking at the way steel DOES behave describes the improvement in accuracy so much more, well, accurately. But like the TSI tuner is showing us - there's more to be done - and much of it would not even be looked for if everyone had simply accepted Bill explanation. I knew this 7 years ago and is the main reason I kept harping upon it.
 
Boyd
It appears Vibe bet his funny bone money on the patriots.
As to your explanation of Jackies barrel you are correct.This is where Vibe can be of some use rather than spending his time trying to fix Bill's terminology.
I have shot with Eric several times so it was no suprise when Lou and Don had him become a director.
As to the weight.I said as long as the shots weren't flipping it didn't matter.
Vibe
When you get over yourself see if you can come up with a way that placing the correct weight out in front of the muzzle as on Jackies rail will keep the shots consistent.

As to your 7 years of telling Bill he is wrong you insisted the tuner needed to be adjusted constantly.Are you saying now I didn't read that right? Are you now saying that Vibe has said for 7 years not to touch the tuner once set?
Lynn
 
Lynn said:
As to your 7 years of telling Bill he is wrong you insisted the tuner needed to be adjusted constantly.Are you saying now I didn't read that right? Are you now saying that Vibe has said for 7 years not to touch the tuner once set?
Lynn
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Tell you what Lynn. Find a single instance where any of that might have even been implied. What I'm saying is that now I have doubts that you can read anything right.

You certainly do not grasp that Bill is claiming to have created a stationary anti-node, which is a physical impossibility.

My assertion has always been that the node, is a node in the classic sense - and it's natural behavior as such is to change the angle of departure, with respect to time - allowing the slower rounds to be launched higher in such a way as the trajectories for various velocities with a given range of values, can be caused to merge into a common point at a given distance to target. And that with a proper knowledge of this effect - that distance to target can be selected and tuned for - probably without changing the mass OR the distance in front of the muzzle. None of which is possible with an allegedly "stopped" muzzle. So the "stopped" muzzle, AKA "Parallel Node" idea is a serious handicap to further progress.
 
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Vibe
You keep clutching the "Stopped Muzzle" statement like its something from outer space.Bill Calfee and Wallace Smallwood have both described to You exactly what they are seeing in plain English.I have tried for not 7 years but closer to 10 years now.
A Calfee "Stopped Muzzle" means the node is at the barrels crown nothing more nothing less.You have been beating the dead horse for way too long now.

Here is he definition of a standing wave per the dictionary.
stand·ing wave
Noun:
A vibration of a system in which some particular points remain fixed while others between them vibrate with the maximum amplitude.
If you will look at the definition with an open mind you will see it says particular points remain fixed.Bill Calfee's Stopped Muzzle is the Fixed Point being located at the crown nothing more nothing less.
If you can't understand why Bill Calfee sees the crown as fixed and why the definition in the dictionary says fixed and believe me YOU CAN'T you are wasting all of our time posting anything.
Did Bill tell all of you guys to call it what you wanted or not? I know the answer to that and when you couldn't put a label on it he did it for you.He did that because you procrastinated for almost a year fearing you would be wrong in your description.
Check your ego at the door and do like the rest of us did and simply put a tuner on any rifle and test it out for yourself.Your constant snide remarks about Bill show you as a person who can't listen to a description and figure out what is actually taking place.
Lynn
 
Wilbur said:
Is either of you under the opinion that the other is suddenly going to agree?
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Quite frankly Wilbur - Lynns agreement is something I'm really not worried about. He's as bad about putting words in Bills mouth as he mine. If Lynn actually understood what Bill was claiming he'd understand that.

I think I will stop feeding that particular troll now. He can have the last word. For what that word's worth.
 
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On the upside, it's more entertaining than when I have to sit in the den while my daughter watches the Kardashians.
 
Wilbur said:
Is either of you under the opinion that the other is suddenly going to agree?
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Wilbur
I worked on waveforms in Silicon Valley for 22 years.In that same time I worked with literally hundreds of engineers and thousands of people using English as a second or third language.What you notice is some engineers are capable of listening to what a technician is describing to them and then telling them what to do while others needed block diagrams,voltage readings,data plots and a whole host of other information and they still couldn't give a valid answer.
I know were Vibe fits into those two groups and have for some time now.
A "Stopped Muzzle" is the node sitting at the crown period.
"The Parallel Node" is the damped down area around the node nothing more nothing less.
I could cut copy and paste Wallace's description of it here and Vibe still wouldn't understand it again going back to the two categories.
The amusement factor for myself is that Vibe has never used nor tuned for someone else a tuner in competition yet he comes on here and criticizes the most successful user of tuners in the history of the shooting sports simply because he can't figure out what Bill is saying.I'd say frustration has set in.
Lynn

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Vibe
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While I dislike a lot of the ad-hominem stuff, and I may not think that Bill Calfee himself is on the direct fast track to tuner success

This was Vibes reply to this post.

Kathy Guest
Stopped Muzzle, Calfee


When the muzzle is stopped, no further adjustments of the device are EVER necessary.....

Sounds too simple, don't it?

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Vibe
After looking over the Rimfire Results for 2011 I am with You.The Calfee guns with Bills lack of tuner success will probably fade away.
 
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Thank you Lynn.
The actual thread is here
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...Calfee/page2&highlight=Stopped+Muzzle,+Calfee
and my ACTUAL reply is here

Vibe said:
I thought Bill said that this thread had been closed?
While I dislike a lot of the ad-hominem stuff, and I may not think that Bill Calfee himself is on the direct fast track to tuner success. There are a lot of the testing and involved people that are getting there - and they are doing it with centerfire rifles - while using a lot of Bills main ideas. I think it has merit and a usable, understandable, methodology will emerge.
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I guess I find addressing disinformation and outright lying an irresistible bait. But I will try harder to resist it from you.
By the way - that reply was from 2008 - and the TSI tuner that Gene has come up with more or less proves what I was saying. (Just to try and return to the original topic)
 
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Thank you Lynn.

I guess I find addressing disinformation and outright lying an irresistible bait. But I will try harder to resist it from you.

Vibe
Ouch I am hurt! Okay I am over it now.

Not The Point

I would not look at this as a 'put up or shut up' senario. Bart, like some before him, has made an honest good faith offer to Bill that will allow him to test his theory without an extravagant cash layout, or a extravagant amount of time.
I have always said that if these theories prove to be of worth in The Competitive Arena, I would be one of the first to try them, because I am interested in winning. But I see a lot of criticle flaws in the concept, and I am not going to waste my time and money chasing some one elses idea that I have little faith in. I have enough goofy ideas of my own to chase.
Let's see what happens. That is the civil thing to do.
But, I doubt any of us are going to stand by and let someone use this Forum for their own personal gain, trying to hock ideas to impressionable new shooters who see the name, and assume that the facts are correct. That has been my stand from day one.........jackie

Lynn

P.S. One day in the near future I predict Vibe will tell us why Bill Calfee wants the node at the muzzle but using completely scientific terminology.Disinformation means cut copy and pasting an actual post by the accuser.

Best post ever to describe the conflict!!!

I have worked for over 30 years in a field populated by engineers and "hands on" folks. I have made my living for the most part as an engineer who can speak english. I take the technical stuff and translate it for lay people like regulators or legislators. I am a professional witness of sorts.

What I "think" I see going on is a very classic example of design versus build. The engineers and designers here are a little different in that most of them also get hands on. But still, it is essentially a social conflict between the college mind and the builder mind.

The engineer/designer can explain why or predict what will happen, and illustrate data to support these assertions.

The builder guy has experience in putting into real world terms what the designer comes up with. The builder guy does this without the deep technical expertise, but WITH an incredible sense of what looks and feels right. Mechanical genious cannot be taught, it just exists because of a certain set of skills that some seem to be born with.

What occasionally happens over time is that builder guy becomes expert in what he does to a point where he is regarded to be as knowledgable as the designer/engineer. This occurs because of physical results rather than the more academic process of publication.

Builder guy wants to teach what he knows. He develops his own jargon that is used to explain what he does by touch and perception.

The engineer/designer can look at the end result and disect it technically and more accurately than builder guy. And this causes the engineer/designer to take issue with the inaccuracy of builder guy's jargon. To add frustration to this, many engineers cannot duplicate builder guys product, even though they know how and why it works better than builder guy does.

This conflict has no end and no resolution until and unless there comes to pass a masterful builder guy, best in all the land, who is also an engineer/designer. I fear that the existance of such an individual would be like matter and anti-matter and some cataclismic event would occur.
 
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Sorry folks, but aside from finding out how to actually tune a tuner, I have read nothing above that gives me a warm and fuzzy about how tuning, loads or tuners, works.

So, if you good folks would go to Varmint Al's web site and click on "Esten's Rifle and Tuner" along the left side, then click on, "The Vibrations of a Barrel Tuned for Positive Compensation," by a phD from Border Barrels in Scotland. The good doctor built himself a couple jigs to measure both the exact time the bullet exits the barrel as well as monitoring the instantaneous angle the barrel is pointing. Now, I too am an engineer. At least Santa Clara University thinks so, and I also spent 40 years designing analog integrated circuits in Silicon Valley. And, I did learn that if you introduce an impulse to a linear system, you can monitor the output and descern everything there is to know about the system's response. The nearly instantaneous ignition of the powder makes a pretty good imitation of a physical impulse. And, the good doctor outlines the theory of tuning pretty clearly.

Then, you want to continue reading Al's treatise on a comparison of his (I guess) simulations of Esten's rifle plus tuner by FEA (Finite Element Analysis) and Esten's testing of his rifle at the range. And, they agree quite well.

I'm going to get my nice shiny new Bartlein Barrel reamed to 6BRX in the next couple weeks and I am having the gun smith turn down the end of the barrel so I can fit a tuner made by my mentor in Australia. I'm now a believer and also, now I know how to tune it! Only thing left is to figure out how to predict the amount of change in the tuner setting for a given range!

Norm
 
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