Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Can y'all explain: (a) the pitfalls of going "pre-loaded" and (b) the adjustments necessary to keep the gun "in tune" as the temp and humidity change?
How do you shoot a teen agg??
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Can y'all explain: (a) the pitfalls of going "pre-loaded" and (b) the adjustments necessary to keep the gun "in tune" as the temp and humidity change?
Vern
Morethan1waytoskinacat
Since everyone loads at the range for reasons and it works that kind of speaks for itself.
I watched a known good shooter used to be a big name but now he is older a lot older, most everyone would know the name but anyway, I thought about going preloaded about 3-4 matches ago, but didnt. He did and shot lousy. So that quelled my thoughts of tying my experiment. However after being so tired from work that I didnt even feel like loading all of the equipment needed for a match I decided to try my experiment. The match I spoke about in the above post was shot with a barrel that has about 2000 rounds through it.
I have watched and listened to the "need to change to keep the rifle in tune" reasons that have been given. Most seem to revolve around powder and temp and humidity changes. I have asked numerous questions with no completely clear answers so I decided to try it on my own.
With the barrel I have (at the moment) I shot well last year, ending with it having almost 1100 rounds last season. Decided to keep it this season. I did not do well this year and finally decided the barrel was just shot out. Usually trying to chase tune during matches like most people.
In listening and asking questions people talk mostly about the perceived idea that it was the effect of humidity and temp on the powder prior to entering the case. I know most long range shooters preload. So I got the thought IF big big IF it is the internal temp and humidity changes that caused the most change to tune that is on powder before it enters the case I could in effect preload under very controlled conditions and see what happened. For me on only the one match it worked fine. I didnt see the tune on the gun change and there was a big change in temp and humidity that day. I also loaded 99 rounds to take to the match, so there was no reason I couldnt shoot. For those who only use 5-10 cases in a given match this cant be done.
Ill try it again in some practice sessions with a new barrel next year and see how that works out. FWIW I did use a charge master to help try and keep everything as uniform as possible. And yes I am aware of the accuracy or lack there of but for me it works better than throwing, but maybe thats just me.
I watched a known good shooter used to be a big name but now he is older a lot older, most everyone would know the name but anyway, I thought about going preloaded about 3-4 matches ago, but didnt. He did and shot lousy. So that quelled my thoughts of tying my experiment. However after being so tired from work that I didnt even feel like loading all of the equipment needed for a match I decided to try my experiment. The match I spoke about in the above post was shot with a barrel that has about 2000 rounds through it.
I have watched and listened to the "need to change to keep the rifle in tune" reasons that have been given. Most seem to revolve around powder and temp and humidity changes. I have asked numerous questions with no completely clear answers so I decided to try it on my own.
With the barrel I have (at the moment) I shot well last year, ending with it having almost 1100 rounds last season. Decided to keep it this season. I did not do well this year and finally decided the barrel was just shot out. Usually trying to chase tune during matches like most people.
In listening and asking questions people talk mostly about the perceived idea that it was the effect of humidity and temp on the powder prior to entering the case. I know most long range shooters preload. So I got the thought IF big big IF it is the internal temp and humidity changes that caused the most change to tune that is on powder before it enters the case I could in effect preload under very controlled conditions and see what happened. For me on only the one match it worked fine. I didnt see the tune on the gun change and there was a big change in temp and humidity that day. I also loaded 99 rounds to take to the match, so there was no reason I couldnt shoot. For those who only use 5-10 cases in a given match this cant be done.
Ill try it again in some practice sessions with a new barrel next year and see how that works out. FWIW I did use a charge master to help try and keep everything as uniform as possible. And yes I am aware of the accuracy or lack there of but for me it works better than throwing, but maybe thats just me.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Backing up to your previous question, if I remember correctly there are a couple of things that Tony Boyer has said on the subject. First, he has mentioned that on a day when the temperature is rising as the day goes on, that if your last group was a "dot" that you would be well advised to drop your powder charge for the next one, since the tune that produced the dot, was very likely right at the upper edge of the tune window, and that increasing temperature would likely put you over the top. Furthermore, this going out of tune, is very likely to result in at least one shot that is significantly out of the group, rather than a slight enlargement. I believe that he has also said that he tunes for a half bullet of vertical at 100 and a full bullet at 200. I think that this is to give himself some protection from having one pop out of the group and ruin an agg. In effect, by giving up the prospect of the tiniest groups he gives himself a better chance for a small average group.
As far as preloading goes, give it a try, and see how it works for you. I think that would be the best way to develop a solid opinion on the subject. If you pay close attention, I don't think that it will take long.
As far as preloading goes, give it a try, and see how it works for you. I think that would be the best way to develop a solid opinion on the subject. If you pay close attention, I don't think that it will take long.
I think i will get there, as i have seen a lot of improvement in my tuning ability when shooting at home. Like LHSmith says, you do have to go to the match, and i am not sure if he was refurring to myself or not? No matter, i go as often as i can. My young family comes first, among a few other priorities. The girls will be gone soon enough. I do however shoot a lot. I cant hardly keep bullets and powder on hand. One other thing i have started to do, is to shoot a lot at 200 yards. I can really see the effects of the changes i make while tuning. I am exceitted about the next shoot i will attend in October. If i can keep from making other semi rookie mistakes, i think i can finish respectfully. My rifles are how i want them and my barrels are quite good. I have good bullets, and good powder.
This sure is a great game, i absolutly love the challenge!!
Fellas, i am off to Canada for 10 days of fishing. Wish me a safe trip, and I will talk with you all soon. Lee
This sure is a great game, i absolutly love the challenge!!
Fellas, i am off to Canada for 10 days of fishing. Wish me a safe trip, and I will talk with you all soon. Lee
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
I know where that fire was.......................LOL!
Take heart UncleB, the man that lit that fire for you didn't shoot a teen agg all weekend. He did manage to whine a bit and spray a quart of Butch's BS all over his neighbors though.
As to teen aggs, obviously you've gotta have all your ducks in a row. It helps too if you shoot where they "score small", and where there are lots of trees around the range.
martin zuck
Member
I don't know if Joe remembers or not but some years ago down at Kane my daughter, Heidi, shot a .186 agg. at 100 yds. Needless to say her gun was shooting and so was she! Later on she told me she had been watching one flag all morning long! The point of my story is that sometimes a little LUCK is involved. I think if she had continued to stay interested in the game she would have become a pretty good shooter.
Teen Agg
Ted Manning told me, "don't try to shoot itty bitty, just don't shoot any biguns"
Ted Manning told me, "don't try to shoot itty bitty, just don't shoot any biguns"
F
fishbone
Guest
There is something that gnaws at the back of my mind with temps. If ambient temps change the tune, what does the time a cartridge spends waiting to be fired in the chamber do to the tune. Fired within seconds out of a warm barrel vs waiting a couple of minutes for a condition must change the powder/bullet temp.
Wouldn't this have more of an effect than a 10* air temp increase?
Just thinking out loud here.
Wouldn't this have more of an effect than a 10* air temp increase?
Just thinking out loud here.
Hi Fish.
This bugs me too. I read somewhere that a couple of guys. Shoot their sighter, close the bolt and wait. Empty chamber. Looking for that condition......
At my first Super Shoot. I was watching Dwight shoot. He was ahead of me. So I could get up there and watch. I noticed Dwight will shoot his sighter and watch. Pick his condition and go for it......
I also saw Lou Murdica do the same thing.....
I tried it. Sorta works.
I also noticed. If my condition changes and I am waiting.
I don't let a round stay in the chamber for over a minute. It will fly out of the group. Usually high. I dump it on the sighter. And it goes high. Reload and watch. And shoot.
C
caroby
Guest
Ohhh baby do it ever..! Tested and proven to change POI..
THIS is why I pray that my barrels shoot DARN NEAR there PEAK with a little jump or at the leade.... So's I can open the bolt while waiting on conditions / cease fire, whatever... Then run the round in when ready, knowing the seating depth has not changed... Not to mention eliminating the powder dump / bullet stick mess during a 7min match... Uuuuugh..!
BUT... If a barrel likes it's lands engaged.... Well, that's da way it is and just hope it'll still SHOOT with a >light engagement< and you may get away with opening the bolt and not changing seating.... Got a Bartlein 6ppc that has a TIGHT window of about .001 .003 in.... I can just get a loaded round out of this barrel without moving the bullet..."Mostly" that is... Bullet dependent, meaning in this barrel, my 8 ogive bullets seat at a more shallow angle in relation to the leade angle. My 6.5 ogive 6mm bullets will stick in the lands at a very light engagement.
cale
Mike Bryant
Active member
I'm probably not one to answer what it takes to shoot a teen agg as I've only shot one teen agg in a shooting career that has spanned 30 years. The teen agg I shot happened to be at the Super Shoot. Good place to do it if you are going to do it.
First off you can't do it without good equipment. The action has to work smoothly. The barrel has to shoot very well and the rifle has to be in tune and the scope has to be holding point of impact.
Second, the shooter has to be shooting well enough that when the rifle fires, he knows it's going to go into the group. If you wonder if it's going to go in, then you aren't there. It also helps to be able to shoot enough at home that when you have four shots in a dot that you don't start getting nervous and your hand start shaking on the last shot. Normally, if it's the last shot that goes out its a shooter problem.
I've seen teen aggs shot in some pretty windy conditions by some outstanding shooters like Gene Bukys and others. But, light steady conditions do help. I went out this afternoon and shot in some very light conditions. The temperature stayed at 79 degrees all afternoon and shot a .189 agg at 100 with a rifle with a pretty new barrel. After I shot it, I took out another one that I had been shooting most of the summer. While it shot in the .25" area, it wasn't shooting as well as the other rifle. It would probably be competitive in windy conditions, but not in light conditions.
Very seldom have I ever seen conditions that were light enough at a match that you would consider it a trigger pulling contest. That just doesn't seem to happen very often especially in the Gulf coast and Mid Continent regions where I shoot most of the time. By the way, I think my teen agg at the SS was good for about 6th place. I shot next to James Mock at the nationals in Kansas City a few years ago. I was shooting .4's and .5's at 200. He was shooting .2's and .3's. He won the yardage and I think his first nationals yardage win and hall of fame point. He was on and his rifle was on and I think he shot about a .17 agg.
As the old saying goes "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice.". That pretty well works in every facet of benchrest as well. If you want to shoot your first teen agg, it's going to take practice, practice, practice as well as a top quality in tune rifle. I've said this before, but I was talking with Allen Arnette one year at the SS. He shot his way into the hall of fame in one year. He did it with practice, practice, practice, shooting over 10,000 rounds the year he made it into the hall of fame.
First off you can't do it without good equipment. The action has to work smoothly. The barrel has to shoot very well and the rifle has to be in tune and the scope has to be holding point of impact.
Second, the shooter has to be shooting well enough that when the rifle fires, he knows it's going to go into the group. If you wonder if it's going to go in, then you aren't there. It also helps to be able to shoot enough at home that when you have four shots in a dot that you don't start getting nervous and your hand start shaking on the last shot. Normally, if it's the last shot that goes out its a shooter problem.
I've seen teen aggs shot in some pretty windy conditions by some outstanding shooters like Gene Bukys and others. But, light steady conditions do help. I went out this afternoon and shot in some very light conditions. The temperature stayed at 79 degrees all afternoon and shot a .189 agg at 100 with a rifle with a pretty new barrel. After I shot it, I took out another one that I had been shooting most of the summer. While it shot in the .25" area, it wasn't shooting as well as the other rifle. It would probably be competitive in windy conditions, but not in light conditions.
Very seldom have I ever seen conditions that were light enough at a match that you would consider it a trigger pulling contest. That just doesn't seem to happen very often especially in the Gulf coast and Mid Continent regions where I shoot most of the time. By the way, I think my teen agg at the SS was good for about 6th place. I shot next to James Mock at the nationals in Kansas City a few years ago. I was shooting .4's and .5's at 200. He was shooting .2's and .3's. He won the yardage and I think his first nationals yardage win and hall of fame point. He was on and his rifle was on and I think he shot about a .17 agg.
As the old saying goes "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice.". That pretty well works in every facet of benchrest as well. If you want to shoot your first teen agg, it's going to take practice, practice, practice as well as a top quality in tune rifle. I've said this before, but I was talking with Allen Arnette one year at the SS. He shot his way into the hall of fame in one year. He did it with practice, practice, practice, shooting over 10,000 rounds the year he made it into the hall of fame.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Mike, that is the best advise and description yet. Maybe better than Tonys book!!
The truth in that "adage" has to do with time management. Surely, a competitor could easily shoot to the capability of his rifle if the exact condition returned five times in the alloted seven minutes. That occurs..well...never for all practical purposes. The idea is to figure out a condition that will give you a "good" group every time. The guys trying to wait for "their" condition will shoot an itty bitty group at times but the odds will invariably catch them with 30 seconds to go, two shots remaining and the whole world turned upside down. About all they can do is take a sighter and go with it. If it works, they win. If it doesn't, they not only don't win the agg but are often out of any multi-agg deals that may be ongoing.
Take the Super Shoot for example. If you shoot a .4xx on your first target (not that hard to do there) you're out of the agg. Shoot a .4xx on your second target and you're out of the grand. Shoot a .4xx on your third target and you're out of the 2 Gun. There's always tomorrow.....new day, new agg...but don't forget that you ain't gonna win the 2 Gun. Same thing on the local level, you just don't get beat by so many.
I finished 21st in my first Super Shoot agg - "Piece of cake" I said. The remainder of that Super Shoot and eight more years passed before I placed better than 250th in that crowd.
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SGJennings
New member
A couple of thoughts. Keep in mind that I'm not a group shooter:
1. A tune that is shooting absolute holes is one that is about to go away.
2. Holding a tad defensively versus aggressively.
I shot a small handful of teen aggs and in addition to having the gun playing its best tune, impeccable bench manners are a requirement. That nervous twitch that comes with putting the fifth shot in the group turns a lot of .18xx's into .22xx's. You will know when you are operating the equipment like it was part of you if you feel like you were just along for the ride when its over. If you have a tendency to let your nerves catch up with you on the bench, then just remember how much glory and wealth are a stake if you happen to lose that shot... chances are your dog will still talk to you
Jerry Sherrett sit beside me at the Shamrock in 2011 when I shot a .1576 agg at 100. Then shot an .18xx at 200. CubCouper is right when he says when the tune is right your are just along for the ride. When it is right you know there is eyes looking thru spotting scopes at ever shot that you make. That just adds to the nerves when you got 4 in a little dot and are reloading for the 5th shot. I took a deep breath looked the field over and squeezed the trigger making sure not to wish the shot in.