How a tuner works

S

ShelleyDavidson

Guest
I certainly don't want to get in an argument with any of my friends. BUT.... I do think it's important to understand how a tuner works so as to make informed decisions as to how to use them.

The engineers tell me that when you add weights behind the muzzle, you move the vibration node back down the barrel, toward the breech end. When you add weight in front of the muzzle you move the vibration node towards the muzzle and that's desirable.

Try this: take a barrel that's not mounted on a gun. Hold it at the breech end with one hand. Now, start whacking it with the side of a plastic ballpoint pen. It'll make a ringing sound at the muzzle but about 1.5" behind the muzzle the sound will be flat. This flat sound is what a vibration engineer calls a “node.” The node is at a transition area where vibration waves meet and there is very little vibration movement at that spot. Then as you continue to "ring the barrel" further towards the breech end, the barrel will ring again. If you cut the barrel at the node, the node will simply move back down the barrel and will still be about 1.5" behind the newly cut muzzle. But, if you attach a muzzle tuner, and some mass, in front of the muzzle you'll move the node nearer the muzzle. At this time, I believe that having this node near the muzzle will allow for a wider tune window. In other words, the rifle will stay in tune across a wider DA swing than if the node is further back down the barrel.

Having said all of this, both tuner designs will help in tuning the relationship of the time and place when the bullet exits the barrel. This was all demonstrated using Varmint Al's software but it was above most of our heads. (Including mine.)

You can get some real benefit by boring the end of a 1.250 straight taper live varmint barrel (or rail gun). Just bore the muzzle end out to .750 and have the depth at about 1.5". Or by attaching a bloop tube. Both will move the node forwards.

I am not an engineer, I'm just repeating what I learned by carefully listening to the guys who've done this for their living. And, if I've made any mistakes in the above statements, I'd sure appreciate hearing from the engineers.

Shelley
 
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So....

please help me, I did some research, but found no information, with NBRSA can your tuner be any size as long as you stay within the weight issues for a class, or do you still have to maintain any contour restrictions or is that an IBS issue. Thanks in advance.

Linc
 
Linc

You are correct. In NBRSA, the tuner is restricted only by overall gun weight. Hopefully, IBS will relax their tuner restrictions at the coming winter meeting.

Shelley
 
One more question....

when I was shooting rim-fire last year it seemed I read where, if you ring a barrel like you described, and measured from the "node" to the muzzle, that distance times 1.5-2 should give an approximate weight needed to move the "node" to the muzzle. Are you finding these tuners to move the node all the way to the muzzle or just forward to some degree???

Thanks for the information. Linc
 
Linc

At this time, I'm still trying to figure it all out. I know that I'm moving the node forward but to where, I don't exactly know yet. I'm just following the design of Esten Speers who is a retired vibration engineer.

Perhaps Esten will chime in and help me out here.

Shelley
 
Thanks...

Thanks for all the information. This whole thing poses a lot of questions that lead to questions that lead to questions, kind of the perverbial domino thing. I do appreciate all you and Gene have done concerning the R & D of this project. Helps us guys who can think but do nothing about it mechanically.


Linc
 
Shelly,Just a little info on tuners,I have been using,Makeing tuners for both Center & rim fire for over 10 years & there are a lot of variables that are not even being addressed by some of the centerfire posters that are using them,Jackie stated that most rifles are not in tune,He is correct,Most Rimfire tuners that are being used today are not in perfect tune because most shooters have never been taught the Basic procedure for finding a long tuneing window,I have A tuner on a 6PPC,It weighs 13 ounces & i can move it in or out 3 turns & not affect the POI,The rifle will shoot through 1000 feet of DA change,If i use any less weight ,it will move POI with only slight movement,I have found that you can adjust the tuner & go out of one range & into another range,What you are trying to find is range with a lot of forgiveness.Use can use one of the things that Doctors use to check your Heart,But the Rifle has to be together Bedding affects the tuneing,You need to move the Node out past the tuner,as so to have a window to compensate for changes in the weather.You really need to tune a barrel to itself,The load should not matter.Some of these Hummer barrels that you hear about,They are in perfect tune all by themselves,No 2 barrels are the same,Even the index position of the barrel is very prounced upon the tune of the barrel to itself,Wayne Shaw emailed me about the weight of my Tuner,Its 13 ounces & the Barrel is 25 "long in a HV taper. When listening to the barrels rings to move the node forward,You need too Keep adding weight until you have moved it past the muzzle & the barrels has a dull thud when you tap it,If you do not get it past the muzzle,you will still be close ,but not in the long window the you need. BILL
 
Shelley, you are correct in most everything you say in your post about how tuners work, but without carefully analyzing every word, I cannot state with certainty that every word is true. I have no problem with anything you said; I have been through all of that myself.

Your thinking seems to be more in line with what Bill Calfee says about moving the node fore and aft on the barrel. When Bill first came out with his theory that there is a small, parallel node aft of the muzzle that is completely motionless, I, like so many others, bought it hook, line and sinker; however, after years of experimenting and thinking about it, I have concluded, it is not true. Oh,, it's true in one sense of the word; there is indeed a small dead area that is motionless in so far as vertical and horizontal movement is concerned, but it is far from dead as to where the muzzle is pointing.

I do not wish to argue the point with anyone; we have no way of proving it one way or the other, but we can agree to disagree. Even if it were true and we could indeed move the node all the way to the muzzle by adding enough weight beyond the crown; could we afford to add that much weight to a rifle that is restricted by rules to 10.5 pounds or even 13.5 pounds? Also, adding weight to the muzzle makes the rifle nose heavy.

Rather than trying to "fool the barrel into thinking it is longer than it is" and "moving the node all the way to the muzzle" as Mr Calfee suggests, I choose to work WITH the barrels natural vibration frequency. My tuner simply adds a small, adjustable, 3 oz., weight to the muzzle which enables one to vary the frequency at will.

Your tuner works; absolutely, but it is twice as heavy, far more expensive and consists of three parts rather than two. It also protrudes beyond the muzzle creating at the very least a problem during cleaning. There are many ways to skin cats; they all work, but some are much easier than others.

Shelley, I wish you the best of luck in everything you do. I would never want something as trivial as this to come between us. As far as I'm concerned, all of this is just spitting into the wind anyway. When it comes time for all of us to stand before God and answer for the deeds we have done; what difference will it make? :D

My father was known to drink to excess at times, and he was not always of sterling character, but he was quite a philosopher. One of the things I remember most about him was his saying, "Aw hell son, don't worry 'bout it; one hundred years from now it won't make any difference." :D :D

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Question??? Is one to believe that the "track" of the muzzle is strictly vertical?? Or is the "stopping" of the muzzle a multi-axial thing? If the "track" of the muzzle is not circular how does the tuner compensate for the ovality of/ or the ecliptic trace of the Muzzle??

Mike Swartz
 
Mike

I sure hope you're not expecting an answer, from me, other than "damned if I know." Hopefully someone with more education and knowledge can answer your question.

I am of the opinion that an out of tune gun will shoot both vertical and horizontal. Tuning will help both.

Shelley
 
Shelly

This entire discussion about tuners really centers around on thing. Making it work within the confines of the Competitive Arena.
Many shooters in The Gulf Coast Region have shot beside me in the past three years and seen me play with the tuner, anylizing the group and attempting to keep the set-up agging at a competitve level.
Many of the questions asked in this thread, and in many others, seem to show that many shooters are ignorant of what can happen at the firing line. It isn't quite as easy as it might seem at first glance.
In short, all I attempt to do with the tuner is get the verticle out of the Rifle. It would be nice if you could sit there and fire numerous three shot groups, anylize the pattern, make small adjustments, and then proceed with the record group. Unfortunatly, it just is not that easy. There have been times when I just simply put the tuner back where it was before, because I couldn't get enough info from a couple of three shot groups to tell me exactly what to do. There are a lot of variables involved every time the trigger is pulled, and these variables are what can cause you to make a bad decision, and make things worse than if you would just have settled for what the Rifle had at the start.
I have thought about modifying my tuner design, but I can't really come up with something better that combines ease of adjustment, plus effective tuning capabilities.........jackie
 
Friend ShelleyDavidson

Fiend Shelley:

You're pretty much on the right trac......a properly weighted, muzzle attached barrel tuner, does move the "parallel node" to the exit of the muzzle.

If the weight of the tuner is correct for the physical size of the barrel, the muzzle will actually be completely "stopped"......yes it will.

Shelley, I developed the first muzzle attached barrel tuners back in the early 90's....The physics that made a tuner work back then, have not changed today, almost 17 years later.

As a matter of fact, I have refined the barrel tuner, and how it's used, to the point, that we can now build a tuner of the proper weight for the barrel being used, then it no longer needs to be adjusted.......Yes, this can, and is, being done.

My friend Gene Beggs: "I love ya man"....I mean that.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Bill Myers said:
Shelly,Just a little info on tuners,I have been using,Making tuners for both Center & rim fire for over 10 years & there are a lot of variables that are not even being addressed by some of the centerfire posters that are using them,Jackie stated that most rifles are not in tune,He is correct,Most Rimfire tuners that are being used today are not in perfect tune because most shooters have never been taught the Basic procedure for finding a long tuning window,I have A tuner on a 6PPC,It weighs 13 ounces & i can move it in or out 3 turns & not affect the POI,The rifle will shoot through 1000 feet of DA change,If i use any less weight ,it will move POI with only slight movement,I have found that you can adjust the tuner & go out of one range & into another range,What you are trying to find is range with a lot of forgiveness.Use can use one of the things that Doctors use to check your Heart,But the Rifle has to be together Bedding affects the tuning,You need to move the Node out past the tuner,as so to have a window to compensate for changes in the weather.You really need to tune a barrel to itself,The load should not matter.Some of these Hummer barrels that you hear about,They are in perfect tune all by themselves,No 2 barrels are the same,Even the index position of the barrel is very prounced upon the tune of the barrel to itself,Wayne Shaw emailed me about the weight of my Tuner,Its 13 ounces & the Barrel is 25 "long in a HV taper. When listening to the barrels rings to move the node forward,You need too Keep adding weight until you have moved it past the muzzle & the barrels has a dull thud when you tap it,If you do not get it past the muzzle,you will still be close ,but not in the long window the you need. BILL
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Finally someone I can agree with on this tuner discussion. I shot tuners in centerfire all through the 2005 season in all the big shoots. As far as I know no one else did. (If they did, please step forward)

The tuners I shot most was ones Scott Fudd Hamilton made for me and they weighed 11 oz. Many are arguing that a 4-5 ounce tuner will tune any barrel. Agreeing with what TJ Jackson learned several years ago, a barrel has a natural tune condition if you just take the time to find it.

What I found out was that IF a barrel is close to its natural tune configuration, a small amount of weight can probably bring it in. If that barrel, or even that load, is way out then more weight is required more than just 4-5 ounces.

I live where there are a bunch really hot-shot rimfire shooters, some of the best in the nation, the Bristol/Kettlefoot area. Many of them very successfully shoot guns that were built by Bill Myers. I now notice most all of them have epoxied or bolted extra weight beyond the original basic tuner. This tells me again that quite a bit of weight is required, as Bill states above.

In the 2005 season I shot some of the IBS circuit including the IBS Nationals at Fairchance. The tuner restriction for the IBS that year was that the tuner body could not extend outside the profile of the rule defined Varmint taper dimensions. I threaded some barrels to 3/4-40 and made some tuners that were about 6" long and 0.900" diameter. That tuner only weighed 5 oz and that design sucked. For one thing a tuner adjustment with that tuner could move the POI about 3/4" at 100 yards.

I just got an email from an IBS prognosticator and he feels the IBS may adopt tuners at the upcoming meeting by about 3:1. We may be underway for ""The development and encouragement of uniform competition to
achieve the ultimate accuracy in firearms, ammunition, components, equipment and shooting methods."" as it states in the IBS by-laws.
 
Jerry....

A question I would want to see answered is if you have any data that compares your aggs with and without a tuner in the "arena of competition" as Jackie phrases it.

The second question would be how did you manage the added weight in the various class restrictions of the ruling bodies??

Thanks in advance. Linc
 
lcw said:
A question I would want to see answered is if you have any data that compares your aggs with and without a tuner in the "arena of competition" as Jackie phrases it.

The second question would be how did you manage the added weight in the various class restrictions of the ruling bodies??

Thanks in advance. Linc
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The tuner does work. Will it give me the ability to exceed Tony Boyer's accomplishments? No, for two reasons, first I do not have the ability to do so. So far, no one else has either!! Secondly, I got into benchrest in 1998 when I retired at the age of 58 and purely for the enjoyment of the sport. My ego enhancement program was completed years ago.

My aggs in the 2005 season were better than my norm. For example I finished in the top 35 at the Shamrock, ahead of even some Super Shoot and Nationals winners. If you ever decide to get seriously into the sport you will see that the same dog doesn't always end up with the bone every time.

As to weight restrictions, I have 6-7 barrels that I turned to about 3# 6 oz, straight for about 18", one to loose weight for the tuner and two to make the barrel more responsive to tuning as Bill Calfee and others have suggested.

By the way, where all do you shoot competitive benchrest??
 
Jerry,You are on the right track,Scott knows how to make a great Tuner,Along with Lynwood Harrell,As old Bill Calfee says,Once the right weight is there,forget about it,it is tuned to itself,I have seen a lot of centerfire barrels that were out of tune & they needed weight taken off the barrel,not added,Benchmark is in the process of making me a 6 mm barrel,14 twist,3 groove in a reverse taper,This barrel will require less weight &tune easier that the HV orLV barrels.I am going to use on of Harrells Tuners on it,It will be modified to hold up on a centerfire. BILL
 
Bill Myers said:
,This barrel will require less weight &tune easier that the HV or LV barrels.I am going to use on of Harrells Tuners on it,It will be modified to hold up on a centerfire. BILL
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Bill, the main problem I had with a stock Harrells/Hoehn was the thread sloppiness. If you take the o-ring out of it there is about 0.008" free-play. If the Harrells/Hoehn is locked down solid it will do fine, with some added weight. A centerfire really rattles the cage of a tuner that is not locked up solid. That is why Scott made my centerfire tuners so that the outside ring was in two parts and lock together like jam-nuts.
 
Jerry,Call me ,I can tell you how to make it solid,Its easy..540 778 1782. BILL
 
Jerry....

You fellers are a tough crowd when it comes to determing a persons knowledge of how competition works when asking questions.

I am just getting into the competition, last year I finished my first full year of matches in St. Louis. The biggest shoot I have participated in to this date is the East/West in St. Louis last year. I have sent in my entry and hope to be one of the shooters at this years Shamrock, plan to travel to Kansas City for some shoots with friends I have made to this point, will shoot the schedule for St. Louis, and am considering some National participation later in the year. I own a BAT model B and a DS both in Leonard stocks, LCS 45X scopes, enjoy shooting a bunch, and want to learn all I can. Thanks for the information.

How does the smaller contoured barrel take to heat and does it effect one's ability to shoot fast versus the hunt and peck style of shooting???

Linc
 
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