I wish!
I wish!
Wilbur... Good Post...Based on my 15 years of shooting Benchrest, your observations mirror my experiences 100%. I've had one good rifle in 15 years.
Just about any barrel would work with that Rifle. Some barrels just HUMMED. I no longer have that Rifle due to circumstances out of my control. I am back to blaming barrels and everything else in the BR Rifle list of components,including the shooter.
There are few absolutes in this Sport. In my opinion,A "GOOD RIFLE" is one of them.
Glenn
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
There's been no posts to this thread in a while..just wondering. Does everybody agree or is it because you're being nice to me?
CCBW, do I believe this HUMMER idea where some barrels will shoot through most anything? NO. I do believe some barrels are out of more stable steel than others. I believe some barrels are chambered badly and some really good. I do believe there are some barrels that the shooter has enough confidence in the shooter BELIEVES that....BUT..do I believe some are super exceptional? NO!!
I've been through some 36+ barrels I chambered for myself and several chambered by others like Sinclair, Kelblys and Borden, Hart 6 grooves, Hart 3 grooves, Hart 15 twist, Spencers, Spencers with 5 grooves. Shilens that even Ed Shilen made me one with 0.0005 taper and one with 0.001" taper, Krieger's from 13.5 to 14.5 twist and 0.237/243 and 236/243s, Bartlines from 13.5, 13.75. 14, 14.3 and gain twists and I chambered them to where most all I could make shoot zero (less than 0.1" groups) sometimes. One shot a 0.15 agg. My FIRST record group at the recent NBRSA Nats was a 0.169. I've shot, in Nationals with these barrels, some 200 yard groups under 0.200".
But do I believe there are these proverbial HUMMERS? NO. At least I've never had nor seen one!!
And yes, I shot many times with Paul Wolf and he didn't win them all!!
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Are you saying that the winner simply reads the wind conditions better than others?
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I'll add to that a bit. The winner really does read the wind conditions better than others but does not have to read them better than ALL others - just the competitors that have a competitive rifle.
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I'll add to that a bit. The winner really does read the wind conditions better than others but does not have to read them better than ALL others - just the competitors that have a competitive rifle.
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
No, what I think is that there several things that bring a win, otherwise the person with the hummer barrel would win them all . Look at the most recent St Louis shoot. If there were 2,3 even 4 hummers they would dominate the winnings. As was some of the winners of one agg might be in 18th place on the next agg in the same yardage, on the same day
First, you must have a gun that WILL shoot winning groups. Here I agree with TB probably 2/3 of the shooters do not have tunes that COULD win at that tune condition
(Were the tune of that gun brought to maximum it probably be competitive). (Many shooters never change their load. If it shot great once it will shoot great all the time with that load---wrong!)
Secondly, the shooter must have the gun handling ability to make a potentially winning gun perform to its maximum.
Third, the shooter must HAVE conditions that CAN be read and have the ability to read them.
And fourth, but not final, the winning shooter must have some good LUCK!!
(Remember, there is good luck and bad luck, i.e. if two shooters, up to this point were equal, the one with the better luck WILL win!)
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Tim Singleton
Member
Wilbur
All I can say is keeping voicing what you're experience has shown. I certainly don't want to be chasing my tail round and round burning thru barrel after barrel hoping for a better out come.
I have a Bat 3L that I really want it to shoot. Have spent the money to re stock it now and have another batch of barrels chambered for it to give it one last try.
On the other hand I have an old Hall dual port from what I understand he made very few dual ports.
That I really would rather be the backup. But I keep going back to it. When it's time to go to the match.
The 3L just hasn't been as reliable.
Giving it one more try with a different stock and refining the pin fall. Then it's going to someone who wants an action for a good hunting rifle
All I can say is keeping voicing what you're experience has shown. I certainly don't want to be chasing my tail round and round burning thru barrel after barrel hoping for a better out come.
I have a Bat 3L that I really want it to shoot. Have spent the money to re stock it now and have another batch of barrels chambered for it to give it one last try.
On the other hand I have an old Hall dual port from what I understand he made very few dual ports.
That I really would rather be the backup. But I keep going back to it. When it's time to go to the match.
The 3L just hasn't been as reliable.
Giving it one more try with a different stock and refining the pin fall. Then it's going to someone who wants an action for a good hunting rifle
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Very good Jerry.
I agree completely. A good rifle and barrel is necessary, but you need all the rest as well.
Rick
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
There's been no posts to this thread in a while..just wondering. Does everybody agree or is it because you're being nice to me?
I don't know enough to agree or disagree; however, that first quote above causes me to think you believe buying used rifles is a waste of time and money. Maybe I need to reevaluate my thinking about used guns.
BTW, I'm looking forward to meeting you at River Bend next week.
Buying a used rifle? It really depends!!! If you find a new guy that has a really (REALLY) good rifle, offer him 500 bucks above what he paid. If he won't do it jump to $1000 (don't fool around here) and wait until the match is over. He might just believe he can get another one just like it. I've said this before and maybe used different numbers but the thought is the same.
Any used rifle may be one that never had a good barrel. You simply have to look around and have some cash to play with. Said cash can be somewhat stable because you're just using it to find a winning rifle. You may get a rifle that is worse than the one you sold to buy it but there's really no difference in 20th vs 50th place....or worse.
I bought a rifle from a friend that lost his job. I knew it was a killer (he did too) and paid accordingly...never regretted it one minute. I can't remember what I paid but it was more than it cost to build a brand new one...considerably more. Took me a couple of matches to learn how to shoot it. I was trying to shoot as I always did but turns out I didn't understand. After winning a room full of trophys, I fell on hard times with barrels and thought my rifle was broke...and I could fix it!!! The rifle was never the same after my "fixing" it but its still pretty good...let's say 20th some odd place at the SS if you don't goof up. It's really hard not to goof up at the Super Shoot. The other side of the story is that the rifle came with a barrel that simply wouldn't shoot....until I tried some "fat" bullets. Second to that super barrel I had on my railgun, it may have been the best bag gun barrel I ever had.
I'm gonna click the Submit button because my wife says it's time for me to cook something....I may have to take back some things I wrote.
Any used rifle may be one that never had a good barrel. You simply have to look around and have some cash to play with. Said cash can be somewhat stable because you're just using it to find a winning rifle. You may get a rifle that is worse than the one you sold to buy it but there's really no difference in 20th vs 50th place....or worse.
I bought a rifle from a friend that lost his job. I knew it was a killer (he did too) and paid accordingly...never regretted it one minute. I can't remember what I paid but it was more than it cost to build a brand new one...considerably more. Took me a couple of matches to learn how to shoot it. I was trying to shoot as I always did but turns out I didn't understand. After winning a room full of trophys, I fell on hard times with barrels and thought my rifle was broke...and I could fix it!!! The rifle was never the same after my "fixing" it but its still pretty good...let's say 20th some odd place at the SS if you don't goof up. It's really hard not to goof up at the Super Shoot. The other side of the story is that the rifle came with a barrel that simply wouldn't shoot....until I tried some "fat" bullets. Second to that super barrel I had on my railgun, it may have been the best bag gun barrel I ever had.
I'm gonna click the Submit button because my wife says it's time for me to cook something....I may have to take back some things I wrote.
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
So, if it "came with a barrel that simply wouldn't shoot," how did you know it was a "killer"?
BTW, maybe it's your wife that I'm looking forward to meeting.
Uncle Jerry
I have shot w/Paul Wolf many times.. Paul took 2 rifles to the Super shoot (his first time there) He used that rifle Wilbur is speaking of,, and got 2nd in the grand,, in that gun.. He shot the other rifle, and finished about 60th. ( have to pull my Stat copies to get exact ) Paul also used that good rifle to win the regional s more than once.. When he didn't win, he was still in top five.
And on the lighter side,, I remember Paul had a bullet get out less than a bullet dia. and cost him the match @ Unaka.. (This is what Paul said,,, "it's that damn wind,, I know it ist,,, yeeaah) He also shot 200 yd world record w/said rifle
I have shot w/Paul Wolf many times.. Paul took 2 rifles to the Super shoot (his first time there) He used that rifle Wilbur is speaking of,, and got 2nd in the grand,, in that gun.. He shot the other rifle, and finished about 60th. ( have to pull my Stat copies to get exact ) Paul also used that good rifle to win the regional s more than once.. When he didn't win, he was still in top five.
And on the lighter side,, I remember Paul had a bullet get out less than a bullet dia. and cost him the match @ Unaka.. (This is what Paul said,,, "it's that damn wind,, I know it ist,,, yeeaah) He also shot 200 yd world record w/said rifle
Mike Bryant
Active member
Wilbur, better rifles get beat all the time. I'd look at it as a three part system, the rifle with scope that holds point of impact, the ammunition and the shooter. If any one of the three, breaks down, you won't win. The rifle has to be capable of winning and has to be in tune. But, there is something to be said for the shooter being in tune as well. Some days it can seem so easy when everything is working including you. You see when to shoot and do it and probably more important you see when not to shoot. Other days you can struggle. I saw lots of 4 and 1 groups at the Nationals. Out of tune, maybe. But, more than likely the shooter missing a condition change. The windier the conditions the more it comes down to the shooter and less the rifle.
As to seeing a grey beard, that definitely would describe Ron Hoehn in the Wright City area. For anyone looking to get into benchrest in the St. Louis area, a stop by his shop immediately south of the benchrest range would be worthwhile. Ron will point you in the right direction. As Wilbur said watch out for the gadgets. Benchrest has lots of gadgets. Gadgets that someone makes to sell to do a particular job. Picked up one of those gadgets at St. Louis at the Nationals. It doesn't make you shoot any better. But can save time and trouble.
As to seeing a grey beard, that definitely would describe Ron Hoehn in the Wright City area. For anyone looking to get into benchrest in the St. Louis area, a stop by his shop immediately south of the benchrest range would be worthwhile. Ron will point you in the right direction. As Wilbur said watch out for the gadgets. Benchrest has lots of gadgets. Gadgets that someone makes to sell to do a particular job. Picked up one of those gadgets at St. Louis at the Nationals. It doesn't make you shoot any better. But can save time and trouble.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Mike, speaking of gadgets, my most recent purchase that is not essential but very helpful is the Chuck McClure dial gage. Available at 6mmppc.com.I also made an additional part to it that allows me to measure the variation in ogive jam from one bullet design to another.
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Mike Bryant
Active member
I picked up one of PMA's bullet pullers. They must have been very well received as Pat sold all of them he brought. I was previously using the Hood tool that combined with a Davidson puller. I use pretty high neck tension and couldn't pull them with the Davidson. The PMA tool didn't have any problem with freshly seated bullets. .263" loaded round using a .258" bushing. Lot more seating pressure than is normally used.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Sounds great. Does it distort the bullet?
I use an inertia type which inflicts the least damage of anything I have used.
Mike - Let's leave this (like I'm really going to ) in the proper perspective for those that aren't thinking just right. I believe that you are saying that folks with great rifles lose to a lesser rifle on given days. I agree with that but they're not losing to just any rifle but rather a pretty good one. If we can agree there, I'm good for a day or so until I forget what we wrote here. If we can't agree, then we just can't agree - and I'm OK with that.
What I'm trying to get across here is that there are a tremendous number of rifles that simply can't win. I can't seem to get that stated properly.
) in the proper perspective for those that aren't thinking just right. I believe that you are saying that folks with great rifles lose to a lesser rifle on given days. I agree with that but they're not losing to just any rifle but rather a pretty good one. If we can agree there, I'm good for a day or so until I forget what we wrote here. If we can't agree, then we just can't agree - and I'm OK with that.What I'm trying to get across here is that there are a tremendous number of rifles that simply can't win. I can't seem to get that stated properly.
Mike Bryant
Active member
Wilbur, I agree with that 100%. A rifle has to be competitive and some rifles just aren't competitive. A friend of mine worked on trying to get a barrel to shoot for three years without much luck. He finally gave up on it and installed a new barrel and his rifle became competitive. Another friend of mine had two identical rifles. One shot like a house afire with every barrel he put on it. The other didn't. He sold it to a friend of his who thought he could make it work. The verdict is still out on whether he can get it to work or not.
I don't really think we were disagreeing on what you were stating. It takes a better rifle now days to win than it ever did. Take a shooter like Gene Bukys who is on top of his game. He'll beat you shooting less than his best rifle. Saw him do it at the Rattlesnake at Raton.
I don't really think we were disagreeing on what you were stating. It takes a better rifle now days to win than it ever did. Take a shooter like Gene Bukys who is on top of his game. He'll beat you shooting less than his best rifle. Saw him do it at the Rattlesnake at Raton.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
If a barrel is going to shoot it will usually show itself in the first 100 or so rounds IF you know how to find the load it likes. In seeing this, if the barrel will put the first two shots in the same hole, it is promising. If you have a new barrel and try a load matrix and it never makes the first two touch. Forget it. Groups NEVER get smaller after the second shot.
Not to say that barrel can not be salvaged. One of the earlier Texicanders, Broughton or ?? sometimes would retune the barrel by taking about 1/8" off and go back to the range with it. If it still didn't shoot after taking about 1" off it was probably a looser. What I am saying here if you have shot that barrel 300-400 rounds, trying different loads, and it still will not shoot don't waste more powder and bullets. Installing a tuner can SOMETIMES help.
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