Head Scatcher...

Z

Zebra13

Member
Gentlemen,

I was speaking rifles yesterday with a member of very large SWAT team from the Los Angeles area and he told me an interesting story.

A while back, the team was doing some shooting/training with their bolt guns during a heavy rain. Obviously, the guns were getting a bit damp. Most of the guns were custom built 700's that had been teflon coated by Birdsong. The remaining guns were 40X repeaters, not teflon coated. As they shot, 4-5 of the 40X's bolts got difficult to manipulate, with them eventually having to be literally pried open. They went from functioning to locked up in 3-5 shots. The 700's functioned fine.

He asked me what I thought caused that and I hadn't the foggiest idea as I had never heard of such a thing before. My guess is that the teflon coating had something to do with allowing the 700's to keep functioning. I don't think it's that the 40X's tolerances are tighter as my understanding is that 40X's are just a straighter 700. Something to do with the ammo? I don't know...what do you guys think?

Appreciate your replies,
Justin
 
IMHO the 40X's are no straighter than the 700's; sometimes even worse.

I have a Birdsong tef-coated mauser that would lock up like that until I polished all that $hit off the bolt body. It got gummy. Not sure what the rain had to do with it.
 
Guys

He said that the Teflon Coated 700's kept on shooting with no difficulty. The unmodified 40x Repeaters are the ones that started having problems.

As for an answer to what happenned, were the Rifles out in the weather and being subjected to the pouring rain.?? Maybe the cases were so wet they were not gripping the chamber walls and slamming back against the bolt face.

That is my best guess.......jackie
 
Water can be a lubricant. On the other hand, water can create a "surface tension", which bonds? adjacent molecules together, increasing the strength? of the fluid.
 
As an amateur observer only.....the additional volume of water in the chamber and possibly on the outside of the cases decreases the volume in which the case can expand, possibly increasing friction and hampering extraction. It may be that the teflon coated guns did not accumulate as much moisture on those affected surfaces.
 
bolts

I ran into the exact problem when working as an armourer for the RCMP .The problem is the cocking cam becomes dry and it is almost impossible to manipulate the bolt. We were firing in the rain and most of the bolts (probably 30 rifles ) became almost inoperable .We had nothing with us except a few vehicles ,I pulled the dip stick from the engine of a van we had and dripped oil on to the cam surface ,that solved our problem . Nothing to wild but definitely a lesson to be learned .

Chris
 
chris k said:
I ran into the exact problem when working as an armourer for the RCMP .The problem is the cocking cam becomes dry and it is almost impossible to manipulate the bolt. We were firing in the rain and most of the bolts (probably 30 rifles ) became almost inoperable .We had nothing with us except a few vehicles ,I pulled the dip stick from the engine of a van we had and dripped oil on to the cam surface ,that solved our problem . Nothing to wild but definitely a lesson to be learned .

Chris
Click to expand...



I'm with Chris on this one :)

al
 
Maybe a tiny bit of TS65 moly grease on the ramp of a hunting 700? It's a lot more rainfast than ep2 grease or light oil.
 
chris k said:
I ran into the exact problem when working as an armourer for the RCMP .The problem is the cocking cam becomes dry and it is almost impossible to manipulate the bolt. We were firing in the rain and most of the bolts (probably 30 rifles ) became almost inoperable .We had nothing with us except a few vehicles ,I pulled the dip stick from the engine of a van we had and dripped oil on to the cam surface ,that solved our problem . Nothing to wild but definitely a lesson to be learned .

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,

Based on your experience, it would appear that the rain was some how washing the lubrication off of the cocking cam. If so, what grease/lube did you use to counteract this problem (outside of the oil dipstick...pretty clever)?

Thank you all for your replies,
Justin
 
lube

We could only use lubricants that had been approved .If memory serves correct we used G96 synethetic , however I believe a good moly based grease would be effective if not more so .
We were totally soaked that day but we definitely learned an important lesson. Something so simple could become SO IMPORTANT .
 
chris k said:
We could only use lubricants that had been approved .If memory serves correct we used G96 synethetic , however I believe a good moly based grease would be effective if not more so .
We were totally soaked that day but we definitely learned an important lesson. Something so simple could become SO IMPORTANT .
Click to expand...

Chris,

Just to make sure, the guns you had lock up on you were 700's/40X's?

Justin
 
rifles

No they were not 700 or 40x but what I can tell you ,they were bolt action rifles and work on exactly the same principle as the the rifles you are in question of . The telfon rifles you say kept working is probably because the teflon is slick and did not sieze up like the metal on metal of the non teflon rifles.

Chris
 
While hunting at home here on British Columbia's west coast (wet coast) your equipment gets soaked all the time. I rub mine down with synthetic grease, almost buff it with grease and I have no problems but the thing is most guys that just go out a couple of times a year don't do anything and they don't seem to have any problems either. To sum it up I have no idea why those rifles would get tight, especially more than one. I've only heard of problems when things get really cold and then the old gummed up oil starts to stick.
 
mechmike said:
While hunting at home here on British Columbia's west coast (wet coast) your equipment gets soaked all the time. I rub mine down with synthetic grease, almost buff it with grease and I have no problems but the thing is most guys that just go out a couple of times a year don't do anything and they don't seem to have any problems either. To sum it up I have no idea why those rifles would get tight, especially more than one. I've only heard of problems when things get really cold and then the old gummed up oil starts to stick.
Click to expand...

It's not "getting tight" it's actually the cocking ramp proper which creates the whole problem. Next time it happens grease just the cocking ramp and see the difference. :) Then of course you continue to grease the threads of the bolt shroud, the primary extraction cam etc......

al
 
lube

Problem is nothing more than a lube problem or should I say lack of .Nothing more nothing less . Something to be aware of .
Chris
 
Gents,

Thanks for all your replies. Chris: I passed your experience along to the fellas and if it happens again, they have a place to start looking.

They also asked me if they were doing irrepairable harm to their rifles by training with them in the rain. I told them, based on what I have read, that water in the muzzle can cause errant shots and potentially damaged barrels. A piece of electrical tape over the muzzle goes a long way to prevent that. As far as rain getting in the action, I told them I couldn't see where it would hurt but to be real sure the rifle was taken down to parade rest afterwords and everything was cleaned, dried, re-lubed, etc. What are your guys thoughts on that?

I tried to re-create the problem with an old 700 I had laying around. It was completely de-lubed (bolt shroud threads, cocking cam, primary extraction cam, and locking lugs) with Gun Scrubber and cycled repeatedly. It was sticky, but never locked up.

I then sprinkled some water on the action and bolt to simulate rain. Again sticky, but not locking up. I added more water and tested, eventually pouring water all over the action. Sticky, but no locking up. I gave up, cleaned up the action and went inside to watch NASCAR...which was rained out. Ironic.

When I went through my 700 armorers school, the gunsmith teaching it stated that taking a stone to the cocking cam and cocking piece made bolt lift a lot smoother and easier. I did it to the 700 I had with me that week...he was right.

Justin
 
lube

You are on the right track .The moisture will only cause permanent damage if allow into the bore and shot.. The electrical tape is a good idea . As long as the actions, triggers ,etc are dried and lubed one should not have troubles .Don't for get to pull out of the stock and dry those areas as well. Tactical stocks are synthetic however if you have a rifle that is a wood stock and is used in moist conditions ,it should be sealed in side and out to try to keep from absorbing moisture .That can be a difficult thing to do ,and that is why synthetic stocks ,all though not as pretty or eye appealing ,are generally a better handle .

Chris
 
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