Harrells FL die modification.
- Thread starter Larry M
- Start date
D
david dumas
Guest
have ya shot it yet?? I known 2 shooter's that ream 1/2 of thier neck bushing out so they just size the last 1/8-5/32 of the neck,,,, if it ain't broke don't worry about trying to fix it,,,,,
the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
DD
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Something is strange here I shoot a zero freebore reamer with both 10 Ogive Bibs and 7 0give Eubers and cannot even imagine bullet being that far back in case ? I use a Harrels die and am very happy with it , what weight/ ogive bullets are you shooting ?
This is a 0 freebore chamber. BIB 118 7og. I have the 10's also but they dont go as deep in the case. Right now I'm loading them .030" into the lands. The rifle shoots ok but everyone tells me pressure ring below sized portion is a no-no. I just want to eliminate any possible causes of trouble. I was trying to avoid the expense of a custom die but if this die is stuck as is I may go ahead have one made.
Larry M,
See if it shoots
I believe that the neck slaps out to seal the case against gas leakage before the bullet enters the lands........the neck'll be clear open before the bullet moves.
I can't imagine how the pressure ring could even contact the constriction in the neck. I've shot a lot of rifles running the base below the sized portion of the neck, haven't ever considered that it could have a deleterious effect.
Maybe someone else can point out what I'm missing.
al
See if it shoots
I believe that the neck slaps out to seal the case against gas leakage before the bullet enters the lands........the neck'll be clear open before the bullet moves.
I can't imagine how the pressure ring could even contact the constriction in the neck. I've shot a lot of rifles running the base below the sized portion of the neck, haven't ever considered that it could have a deleterious effect.
Maybe someone else can point out what I'm missing.
al
A throater is around $75. A custom die is around $200. If you throat out your chamber around .010, you'll likely be set for any of the BIBs.
BTW, you don't need a lathe for this -- you don't even need to pull the barrel. Make up (or have made up) a delrin guide to fit the action. Several descriptions of the tooling & method in the Gunsmith Forum archives.
Edit:
Al, the neck may or may not seal the chamber before the bullet begins to move. I doubt anyone knows for sure. But even if the neck seals, it (may) do this only for the last 1/4 inch or so. The neck at the neck/shoulder junction may be a different story. Moreover, bullet tension may be affected. I know if I push a bullet with a significant pressure ring through the neck -- at least, a long neck (not Wolf Pup), it moves easier after the pressure ring clears the neck. The brass may spring back overnight to increase tension, but that's not how I want to control it. I won't go so far as to say pushing a FB bullet with a pressure ring through the neck is a no-no, but i also don't want to do it.
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Gene Beggs
Active member
Larry, the die is not your problem, the problem is the leade in your chamber. With a zero freebore, you will likely be limited to the use of boattail bullets. If you are going to use a flatbase, 7 ogive bullet, you need at least a .035 freebore and a .045 would be better.
Your gunsmith can lengthen the throat in your rifle with a throating reamer.
Hope this helps
Gene Beggs
Charles,
It seems counterintuitive that the neck ahead of the bullet would seal without the neck at the base being opened. I'll have to think about it.
There is no doubt that the pressure ring can be felt going thru the neck, especially when using very light nt, but unless it's prone to be damaged by the act of popping out into the un-sized portion I can't imagine that the effect of the ring's passage thru the neck has any effect on bullet pull. I run .001-.002-.003 interferences and they're all different, linear.......I can't see the tenth or so of the pressure ring as having any effect.........
interesting
al
It seems counterintuitive that the neck ahead of the bullet would seal without the neck at the base being opened. I'll have to think about it.
There is no doubt that the pressure ring can be felt going thru the neck, especially when using very light nt, but unless it's prone to be damaged by the act of popping out into the un-sized portion I can't imagine that the effect of the ring's passage thru the neck has any effect on bullet pull. I run .001-.002-.003 interferences and they're all different, linear.......I can't see the tenth or so of the pressure ring as having any effect.........
interesting
al
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Larry,
It is quite difficult to go wrong with a 30 BR no matter what but be sure to put enough powdah in er. There are folks having sucess shooting loads of H-4198 over 35g. As long as you load the cases sufficiently and consistently, it is pretty hard to go wrong. I have the very best results shooting Speer TNT's that are .308 without a pressure ring. If one thinks about it a bit, why should Boat Tail bullets work well? But they do. And then there are those who shoot with bullets .030 off the lands, how could you imagine a problem when faced with the wide variety of successful setups?
There are plenty, nearly everybody, shooting 30 BR's with zero freebore. Throats are not much of an issue except to limit the bullets one can use, especially some of the "Exocits". The zero freebore should enable you, not deminish you. Shoot 7 ogive bullets and you will never go wrong.
It is quite difficult to go wrong with a 30 BR no matter what but be sure to put enough powdah in er. There are folks having sucess shooting loads of H-4198 over 35g. As long as you load the cases sufficiently and consistently, it is pretty hard to go wrong. I have the very best results shooting Speer TNT's that are .308 without a pressure ring. If one thinks about it a bit, why should Boat Tail bullets work well? But they do. And then there are those who shoot with bullets .030 off the lands, how could you imagine a problem when faced with the wide variety of successful setups?
There are plenty, nearly everybody, shooting 30 BR's with zero freebore. Throats are not much of an issue except to limit the bullets one can use, especially some of the "Exocits". The zero freebore should enable you, not deminish you. Shoot 7 ogive bullets and you will never go wrong.
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eww1350
Guest
LarryM..How about posting some photos of your sized brass and a loaded round.?
I have 2 - 30BRs and shoot 118s (7 ogive) in one and 112s (7 ogive) in the other..Both rifles are chambered with a "Robinette" zero freebore reamer..I do NOT size my entire neck length...I use a Redding bushing die...I am able to keep my bullets pressure ring above the sized area...
I have a hard time understanding how the Harrell die will not work for you...A picture will go a long way towards explain the issue..
I have 2 - 30BRs and shoot 118s (7 ogive) in one and 112s (7 ogive) in the other..Both rifles are chambered with a "Robinette" zero freebore reamer..I do NOT size my entire neck length...I use a Redding bushing die...I am able to keep my bullets pressure ring above the sized area...
I have a hard time understanding how the Harrell die will not work for you...A picture will go a long way towards explain the issue..
I may be able to get a pic tomorrow. The rifle does shoot. But I had an issue last weekend, but it could have been a number of things. The base of the bullet on the 7og is right at where the sizing stops. But I took it out this evening to to try it with 3 different bushings to see what effect that might have if any. I had a .324, .325, .326. I shot 3-3shot groups with each in good conditions. The largest group measured .258, the average of all 9 groups was .176. The gun shoots, I may be grasping at ghosts. But why has everyone told me that pressure ring below the sized portion is bad juju
Larry,
During the 80's it was considered verboten to run the pressure ring below the sized portion. I've got articles here that talk about the bullet "swiveling on the pressure ring for better alignment". This was also the high time for Wilson hand dies.......many folks were neck sizing only so the issue was front and center.
People still avoid it like a plague..... I'm not saying that the idea of keeping the ring in the sized portion all wet but I've done it quite a bit the other way and can't see the problem.
If someone could care to explain to me why it might be a problem I'll gladly stand corrected. Even if someone says "I tried it and my groups opened up" is enough for me. I've yet to find anything but "don't do that!" I'm with Larry, why is it taught that you want to avoid running the base down into the unsized portion of the neck? WHY is it bad juju?
al
During the 80's it was considered verboten to run the pressure ring below the sized portion. I've got articles here that talk about the bullet "swiveling on the pressure ring for better alignment". This was also the high time for Wilson hand dies.......many folks were neck sizing only so the issue was front and center.
People still avoid it like a plague..... I'm not saying that the idea of keeping the ring in the sized portion all wet but I've done it quite a bit the other way and can't see the problem.
If someone could care to explain to me why it might be a problem I'll gladly stand corrected. Even if someone says "I tried it and my groups opened up" is enough for me. I've yet to find anything but "don't do that!" I'm with Larry, why is it taught that you want to avoid running the base down into the unsized portion of the neck? WHY is it bad juju?
al
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
I was surprised when I measured some of my loaded rounds
i did some checking on several different 30 Cal Loads with 118/10 Bib and 115 Eubers today and I must admit the pressure rings were near or at the bottom of the sized portion of the neck. However these 4 different rifles shoot remarkably well in my opinion, particularly when I do not pull the trigger at the wrong time.
I just cannot see this as anything to worry about, except if you do get all the way back in the neck you will restrict how much powder you can get in the case.
Dick Grosbier
i did some checking on several different 30 Cal Loads with 118/10 Bib and 115 Eubers today and I must admit the pressure rings were near or at the bottom of the sized portion of the neck. However these 4 different rifles shoot remarkably well in my opinion, particularly when I do not pull the trigger at the wrong time.
I just cannot see this as anything to worry about, except if you do get all the way back in the neck you will restrict how much powder you can get in the case.
Dick Grosbier
ZAl...
folks size the neck with a particular busing to get a particular neck tension with a seated bullet. The bullet pressure ring is larger than the bearing surface measurement. If you seat the pressure ring below the sized part of the case you loose your neck tension. You would, in essence, have to use a smaller sized bushing if you were going to do this but then you would be streatching the case with the pressure ring diameter of the bullet and hoping it would be live enough to spring back and grab the smaller bearing surface bullet area with the desired tension. Some folks live by neck tension I guess. --Greg
Larry,
During the 80's it was considered verboten to run the pressure ring below the sized portion. I've got articles here that talk about the bullet "swiveling on the pressure ring for better alignment". This was also the high time for Wilson hand dies.......many folks were neck sizing only so the issue was front and center.
People still avoid it like a plague..... I'm not saying that the idea of keeping the ring in the sized portion all wet but I've done it quite a bit the other way and can't see the problem.
If someone could care to explain to me why it might be a problem I'll gladly stand corrected. Even if someone says "I tried it and my groups opened up" is enough for me. I've yet to find anything but "don't do that!" I'm with Larry, why is it taught that you want to avoid running the base down into the unsized portion of the neck? WHY is it bad juju?
al
folks size the neck with a particular busing to get a particular neck tension with a seated bullet. The bullet pressure ring is larger than the bearing surface measurement. If you seat the pressure ring below the sized part of the case you loose your neck tension. You would, in essence, have to use a smaller sized bushing if you were going to do this but then you would be streatching the case with the pressure ring diameter of the bullet and hoping it would be live enough to spring back and grab the smaller bearing surface bullet area with the desired tension. Some folks live by neck tension I guess. --Greg
Boyd Allen
Active member
Different powders may have different neck tension requirements. If you are using a powder that "needs" a lot of neck tension, and the bullet that you favor falls below the sized part of the neck, the easiest thing to do will be to have a good smith lengthen the throat, with a throating reamer of the appropriate diameter. You could also have a custom one piece die made, but that would be more expensive.
Speaking to Al's dilemma, (three different chambers), the first thing that I did ,when I decided to have a PPC built, was to research and buy my own reamer. All of my barrels have been chambered with it, by the same smith, and I don't have to remember which brass or die goes with a particular barrel. At least I did ONE thing right.
Speaking to Al's dilemma, (three different chambers), the first thing that I did ,when I decided to have a PPC built, was to research and buy my own reamer. All of my barrels have been chambered with it, by the same smith, and I don't have to remember which brass or die goes with a particular barrel. At least I did ONE thing right.