Well Pete, I hope I'm the Al you're referring to.... if not, ignore all this!!
I FL resize EVERY time, exactly the same, EVERY time.
I size the shoulder back as little as possible, half-thou to maybe a thou........ getting over a thou pretty much guarantees that you'll be slipping the shoulders in the die which results in cases growing which means casetrimming, casehead separations and all that mess.
I don't trim cases, I check them and if I DO have to trim them I change something.
I start by ordering some cases. I've only ordered BR cases twice, 1000 each time, and I got lucky as they measure the same. And I've got boxes and boxes left over because I've never thrown many away
the only time I throw them away is when I physically wreck them with overloads. I don't anneal.
Soooooo, long story short as possible..... This is for PPC/BR/ up to .308 sized cases.
I order up some cases and spec the reamer at .007 larger than the cases at the butt then run .010 per inch taper forward. Getting a go gauge that works has always been a problem for me. Gunsmith's don't like to chamber on my cases. Now I cut my own chambers so I don't really have to worry about it. I use gauges, or not. The "Go Gage" is just a tool I can set both ways from (((I just got a 338L "Go Gage" that I'm using to chamber, 18THOU SHORTER THAN THE GAGE!! And I can still close the bolt on brass right out of the box)))
Once I have a reamer and a chamber cut I can go after the dies......
I fire a few cases until they're tight fit, everywhere. I send these three cases off to my reamer maker with instructions to set them .0015 under at the shoulder and .0025 under at the base and to grind at least ten thou off the bottom. I don't want my die to EVER touch the shellholder.
It's hard to find a die maker.
I'll stop rambling now. Might not even be the right Al!!
al
jackie schmidt
New member
I am a little different in that I use a Redding Full Body Die for by full length sizing and shoulder bump. It also sizes the neck, as what I did was take a 6BR die and bored the neck portion out to a little over .325 for my .330 neck. I do not like bushings.
This die does not hit the case that much, a few tenths at the web, about .001 up by the shoulder. I shoot at a tad over 3000fps with a BIB 112, case life is just about a non issue.
Unlike Al, I do allow the shell holder coming into firm contact with the die. I grind the surface of shell holders to get more or less shoulder
bump. The reason I like the shell holder to contact is I do not rely on the linkage of the press as the positive stop.
My 30BR does shoot pretty well.
This die does not hit the case that much, a few tenths at the web, about .001 up by the shoulder. I shoot at a tad over 3000fps with a BIB 112, case life is just about a non issue.
Unlike Al, I do allow the shell holder coming into firm contact with the die. I grind the surface of shell holders to get more or less shoulder
bump. The reason I like the shell holder to contact is I do not rely on the linkage of the press as the positive stop.
My 30BR does shoot pretty well.
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Greg Walley
Member
I know some members here will disagree with me on my answer, but as a general rule I don’t think it is a good idea exchanging brass from one barrel to another. I admit that I do it, however I take several precautions to ensure proper case fit to the chamber.
No. 1 DO NOT push the shoulders back more than .001”. If you do, you are almost certain to have the cases hang up at the beginning of the extraction cam within a half-dozen firings…maybe less.
I use a shoulder gauge with digital calipers only as a rough estimate for die setup. I check the cases for a light crush fit on the shoulder using the bolt with the firing pin assembly removed. The bolt handle should fall down half-way, with a little help from your index finger pushing it down the rest of the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNU3NCU3ZlQ
No. 2 There is one caveat…you must be certain that your FL die truly resizes the entire body, or else you can be fooled in how much you are pushing the shoulders back…hence my use of the shoulder gauge for an added safety check.
Jackie is right on the money with the shell holder-die contact technique for optimum resizing. Rely on the spring of the press rather than the spring of the work-hardened brass for consistent resizing. This is an old-time technique noted in the reloading manuals that many BR shooters seem to forget.
Using the above resizing technique with Lapua brass, I can easily reload the cases 50 times before retiring the brass…even with full-throttle loads. I never get “double clicking” on bolt lift. I retire the cases when the neck tension becomes inconsistent. I don’t bother annealing at this point since I believe the primer flash holes wear out (erode) on the inside of the case which might cause inconsistent ignition. That’s another story for another time.
Incidentally, I have found that sizing dies must be perfectly matched to the chamber, or else accuracy suffers. One of the top “Hall of Fame” shooters taught me this fact years ago…and I believe he is right.
Since you have been a tool maker longer than I’ve been alive, you can understand proper measuement techniques and finishes in your chamber, so you’ll be ahead of the learining curve setting your equipment up the way it should be.
I recommend polishing the chambers with 400 grit paper. You don’t want a mirror finish…maybe 8-12 micro. Measure your chambers and FL dies with precision balls. Do the calculations on the hole size and angle/taper differences between the chamber and the dies. Keep records on these dimensions if you decide to do multiple barrels. Chamber hole size can vary with setup/reaming technique and viscosity/temperature of your cutting fluid or oil. The latter can have an affect of a few of tenths, but it could be enough to cause case extraction problems when trying to exchange brass from one barrel to another - since a correctly fitted case to the chamber is almost a very light press fit.
Good luck,
Greg Walley
Kelbly’s Inc.
No. 1 DO NOT push the shoulders back more than .001”. If you do, you are almost certain to have the cases hang up at the beginning of the extraction cam within a half-dozen firings…maybe less.
I use a shoulder gauge with digital calipers only as a rough estimate for die setup. I check the cases for a light crush fit on the shoulder using the bolt with the firing pin assembly removed. The bolt handle should fall down half-way, with a little help from your index finger pushing it down the rest of the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNU3NCU3ZlQ
No. 2 There is one caveat…you must be certain that your FL die truly resizes the entire body, or else you can be fooled in how much you are pushing the shoulders back…hence my use of the shoulder gauge for an added safety check.
Jackie is right on the money with the shell holder-die contact technique for optimum resizing. Rely on the spring of the press rather than the spring of the work-hardened brass for consistent resizing. This is an old-time technique noted in the reloading manuals that many BR shooters seem to forget.
Using the above resizing technique with Lapua brass, I can easily reload the cases 50 times before retiring the brass…even with full-throttle loads. I never get “double clicking” on bolt lift. I retire the cases when the neck tension becomes inconsistent. I don’t bother annealing at this point since I believe the primer flash holes wear out (erode) on the inside of the case which might cause inconsistent ignition. That’s another story for another time.
Incidentally, I have found that sizing dies must be perfectly matched to the chamber, or else accuracy suffers. One of the top “Hall of Fame” shooters taught me this fact years ago…and I believe he is right.
Since you have been a tool maker longer than I’ve been alive, you can understand proper measuement techniques and finishes in your chamber, so you’ll be ahead of the learining curve setting your equipment up the way it should be.
I recommend polishing the chambers with 400 grit paper. You don’t want a mirror finish…maybe 8-12 micro. Measure your chambers and FL dies with precision balls. Do the calculations on the hole size and angle/taper differences between the chamber and the dies. Keep records on these dimensions if you decide to do multiple barrels. Chamber hole size can vary with setup/reaming technique and viscosity/temperature of your cutting fluid or oil. The latter can have an affect of a few of tenths, but it could be enough to cause case extraction problems when trying to exchange brass from one barrel to another - since a correctly fitted case to the chamber is almost a very light press fit.
Good luck,
Greg Walley
Kelbly’s Inc.
O
oldpup223
Guest
Greg thank you for jogging my old brain. The method of measuring the taper and size of the chamber should have been obvious to me from the beginning but was not. I do have a complete set of precision balls and used to grind gauges using this method but just didn't make the connection from gauges to a chamber and using that method to compare it to the die.
Thanks again for the nudge.
Denton
Thanks again for the nudge.
Denton
Boyd Allen
Active member
Right above the extractor groove is an area that can be difficult to reach with a FL die. They typically have a small chamfer or radius at the bottom of the die that can be over done, reducing the die's reach down the case. For this reason, I find it better to take a cut off of the shell holder if I need to make an adjustment so that I can bump shoulders.
I have a Harrell's Varibase die. (long discontinued) For those that are unfamiliar with it, it has base inserts that screw into the die, that determine the amount of sizing of the base of the case. I find this very handy. Mine is set up so that bases of cases are sized only about .0005. Because the die does not size the diameter of the front of the body of the case, I have been able to season the die so that I get away without using lube. The extra friction (I have never stuck a case in this die.) loads the press linkage, and frame enough that my shoulder bump is very consistent, without having to have the die touch the shell holder. I do not recommend this approach, but it works for me, with this particular die.
The latest improvement in my sizing has come from a very straight carbide bushing. Using a ball mic. the thickness comes out on the same tenth all the way around. Cases come out of the die straighter.
I have a Harrell's Varibase die. (long discontinued) For those that are unfamiliar with it, it has base inserts that screw into the die, that determine the amount of sizing of the base of the case. I find this very handy. Mine is set up so that bases of cases are sized only about .0005. Because the die does not size the diameter of the front of the body of the case, I have been able to season the die so that I get away without using lube. The extra friction (I have never stuck a case in this die.) loads the press linkage, and frame enough that my shoulder bump is very consistent, without having to have the die touch the shell holder. I do not recommend this approach, but it works for me, with this particular die.
The latest improvement in my sizing has come from a very straight carbide bushing. Using a ball mic. the thickness comes out on the same tenth all the way around. Cases come out of the die straighter.
Butch Lambert
Active member
I have or had a Harrel's Varibase die. It scratched the hell out of my brass.
Butch
Butch
Greg Walley
Member
No, only the extraction caming surface - contacts about 83° of bolt lift from horizontal ...similiar to a Remington.
Greg Walley
Member
One could get away not trimming with a standard length 6mm PPC chamber at 1.525" OAL. I've never seen PPC cases made from Lapua brass grow that long.
I would still trim to identical lengths in a batch.
On the other hand, I used to shoot a 220 Swift so hot that I would have to trim after two firings. That was with Winchester brass, and it was ruined within ten reloads. Norma brass was cooked in two reloadings!
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
I think a solution
for neck length growth was peresented by Gene Beggs when he came out with his chamberings. He changed the radius between the neck and shoulder slightly and apparently stopped neck length growth with his cases. Does anyone else do this when they have reamers made for them?
for neck length growth was peresented by Gene Beggs when he came out with his chamberings. He changed the radius between the neck and shoulder slightly and apparently stopped neck length growth with his cases. Does anyone else do this when they have reamers made for them?
I've been having mine done this way for over 10yrs.
I'm still playing with the 338L case, Kiff set the inside rad of the N/S junction @ .120 instead of .060. I'm trying it. Outside is a "broken edge."
al
Perhaps it might be best then if you make some mention of this practice so that folks with normal reamers/chambers/angles reading your advice don't think something is wrong when they see their brass move forward the usual amount? You made it sound as if trimming was only necessary if something is WRONG with the brass or dies.
yeahhh, whatever.........."perhaps it's best" I pick my discussions more carefully.....trimming IS only necessary if something is WRONG with the brass or dies.
But this is only a small piece of the puzzle.
There IS "something wrong" with 99.99% of all the setups on earth. A select few gunsmith's know "right" and they're pretty much all BR guys.
I know what works because I've spent the money and the time. I'm very tired though of arguing about it. I don't "defend myself" well, the old "arguing with a fool" thang.....But you sound like you're all set up so good luck.
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
A couple of things worth keeping in mind, with all this discussion of small amounts of shoulder bump, are that .338 Lapua cases (as well as many others) will show a range of actual bump achieved by the same die setting that is quite a bit greater than .001. We have solved this particular problem by annealing past the shoulder, but not so much as to over soften necks. As the number of firings and resizings of a new case increases, it becomes work hardened, and if it is not annealed, the FL die being used will have to be turned farther into the press, by a small amount, to achieve the same bump. I have run into this with my PPC during a match weekend, when the same set of cases were being used over and over. With some case designs that have smaller shoulder angles and thinner brass at the shoulder, case growth is inevitable, although it may be markedly reduced by closely matching chamber and FL die IDs throughout the length of the body. Also, from my perspective, a small amount of trimming, from time to time, is really no big deal. For rifles that are loaded from magazines, no matter how precisely they are built and loaded for, I prefer to have enough clearance between the chamber and loaded rounds such that if for no other reason, a little trimming will be necessary. This is no big deal. Sometimes I get the impression that the tail is wagging the dog. If brass doesn't last for 50 firings, I don't care.
GG, I'm not sure who "we all" are, but yes there are a lot of people who trim. Most people in fact. And to YOU this is indication that others who don't trim a lot are "wrong." Or, like me, flat out liars or disillusioned.
Sorry, can't help you in your dilemma. Although ignorance is in and of itself curable, the patient must want to change.
I will say this though, at the last match several people asked me this same question and I was able to show them rounds that had been fired 41 times and they measured .002 longer than the cases in my match and sighter racks which had been fired 3 and 4 times respectively. This on a 308 length case. And I know other shooters who have similar results. Ummm, some of them are even "real" shooters...dunno if they'd meet your specific requirements but??
What frightens me about all this is that you presume to speak for "the entire BR community" when it's doubtful that everyone else out there wants to be included in your little circle of ignorance. If you were to do a little more research you would find that there are folks shooting who do not trim like you do. You really do have something wrong if you're getting .001 of growth per resize.
There's a whole body of work here and a lot of interesting discussion. East Coast VS West Coast methodology is in itself an interesting subject! Many feel that it's advantageous to size like you do. Many people make new brass for every match. Most people will tell you that brass flows under pressure. Some people will insist that because of this high pressure "flow" you must stay on top of the length and the donuts.... Many people also anneal, for whatever reason. Many people (Jack Neary is one) run .003 neck clearance. Most people run considerably more chamber clearance than others and very few realize the benefits of having differential taper on your sizing dies even though guys like Jim Carstensen have been doing it for 30 years. Shucks, LOTS of guys are still using multiple dies, sizing and "bumping" as separate operations. And still winning. Some guys are still shooting 12L14 'Leadloy' dies...Some guys like minimal gapspace, some like 15thou. Winning shooters differ widely in their methods. Since you think a lot of Tony's stuff I'll mention that he's the first I noticed who wrote about tooling for removing the carbon ring in your gapspace...which is why I asked you about yours. (I'll be more circumspect in future )
And the 100-200 guys do things differently than the 600-1000 guys....
Ohh yeahhh, and that "match" would have been an NBRSA sanctioned 600yd match held at Tri-County club, Tualatin OR. Shooters in attendance included several world record holders as well as the 2009 World Champion, a guy named Billie Copeland. I'm embarrassed to have to say this stuff but a lot of folks read this board and you yell perty loud, and include the entire "real" BR community in your worldview.
I just need to note for those reading that IMO you don't represent "everybody."
Nor do I claim to represent anybody. But I can easily and repeatably reproduce the results I write of.
BTW, for all you guys reading this board with an open mind..... I spoke at length with Dave Kiff yesterday regarding this very subject. Not because of anything written here but in the course of designing a reamer....... He shared info about transcripts of conversations between his old business associate and PO Ackley in which Parker pretty much laid out the requirements...... 50 friggin yrs ago!!
LOL
I won't presume to speak for either of the two living parties mentioned but y'all are welcome to ask Dave Kiff of PPG.....tell him Al Matson sent ya'....
al
Sorry, can't help you in your dilemma. Although ignorance is in and of itself curable, the patient must want to change.
I will say this though, at the last match several people asked me this same question and I was able to show them rounds that had been fired 41 times and they measured .002 longer than the cases in my match and sighter racks which had been fired 3 and 4 times respectively. This on a 308 length case. And I know other shooters who have similar results. Ummm, some of them are even "real" shooters...dunno if they'd meet your specific requirements but??
What frightens me about all this is that you presume to speak for "the entire BR community" when it's doubtful that everyone else out there wants to be included in your little circle of ignorance. If you were to do a little more research you would find that there are folks shooting who do not trim like you do. You really do have something wrong if you're getting .001 of growth per resize.
There's a whole body of work here and a lot of interesting discussion. East Coast VS West Coast methodology is in itself an interesting subject! Many feel that it's advantageous to size like you do. Many people make new brass for every match. Most people will tell you that brass flows under pressure. Some people will insist that because of this high pressure "flow" you must stay on top of the length and the donuts.... Many people also anneal, for whatever reason. Many people (Jack Neary is one) run .003 neck clearance. Most people run considerably more chamber clearance than others and very few realize the benefits of having differential taper on your sizing dies even though guys like Jim Carstensen have been doing it for 30 years. Shucks, LOTS of guys are still using multiple dies, sizing and "bumping" as separate operations. And still winning. Some guys are still shooting 12L14 'Leadloy' dies...Some guys like minimal gapspace, some like 15thou. Winning shooters differ widely in their methods. Since you think a lot of Tony's stuff I'll mention that he's the first I noticed who wrote about tooling for removing the carbon ring in your gapspace...which is why I asked you about yours. (I'll be more circumspect in future
)And the 100-200 guys do things differently than the 600-1000 guys....
Ohh yeahhh, and that "match" would have been an NBRSA sanctioned 600yd match held at Tri-County club, Tualatin OR. Shooters in attendance included several world record holders as well as the 2009 World Champion, a guy named Billie Copeland. I'm embarrassed to have to say this stuff but a lot of folks read this board and you yell perty loud, and include the entire "real" BR community in your worldview.
I just need to note for those reading that IMO you don't represent "everybody."
Nor do I claim to represent anybody. But I can easily and repeatably reproduce the results I write of.
BTW, for all you guys reading this board with an open mind..... I spoke at length with Dave Kiff yesterday regarding this very subject. Not because of anything written here but in the course of designing a reamer....... He shared info about transcripts of conversations between his old business associate and PO Ackley in which Parker pretty much laid out the requirements...... 50 friggin yrs ago!!
LOL
I won't presume to speak for either of the two living parties mentioned but y'all are welcome to ask Dave Kiff of PPG.....tell him Al Matson sent ya'....
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
I have no idea if it has carried over to the 30BR crowd, but it is my understanding that a fair number of top 6PPC shooters believe it worthwhile to start a match weekend with freshly fire formed (however many shots it takes to make it reliable) brass, and toss it in the trash when the weekend is over.
Another thing, that I think that we can all agree on, is that whether there is a problem is generally determined by comparing targets. On the other hand, if there were prizes for longest lived brass, hardest front bag, ugliest rifle, best tracking rifle, etc. I might have a much better chance of winning something, although I have it on good authority that I am way behind in the ugliest rifle catagory. Evidently there is some fellow from Oklahoma....
Another thing, that I think that we can all agree on, is that whether there is a problem is generally determined by comparing targets. On the other hand, if there were prizes for longest lived brass, hardest front bag, ugliest rifle, best tracking rifle, etc. I might have a much better chance of winning something, although I have it on good authority that I am way behind in the ugliest rifle catagory. Evidently there is some fellow from Oklahoma....
GG, I have laid it out many times here and elsewhere. I've described chapter and verse the regimen required, many times. It's not "my" regimen, I've learned it from others. I don't need this "Magic Al" stuff.... I respond poorly to it as I've never tried to take credit for anything, I'm just sharing information.
I have no need to defend myself nor to name names. You're happy and secure in your knowledge of how it was, how it is and how it shall be.
I do this stuff out of pure enjoyment of the sport.
I don't enjoy this.
you win
al
I have no need to defend myself nor to name names. You're happy and secure in your knowledge of how it was, how it is and how it shall be.
I do this stuff out of pure enjoyment of the sport.
I don't enjoy this.
you win
al
So much ado about nothing !
Gee, let's see what's going on on BR Central ?
Looks like some self appointed district attorney of BR is grilling Al from Wa on freakin' neck trimming.
Some guys( and gunsmiths)have a minimalistic approach to chamber/die relationships. If one adheres to this concept then everything works fine and nobody has to trim any brass, for like a million years. Once somebody starts snortin' up the loads, the whole minimalistic thing goes to hell,cases get sticky on extraction and a more( not so mimimalistic)aggressive sizing regimen is in order. The more one resizes( so the raped and abused brass can function)the more brass flows and needs trimmed. So cut the crap and move on, so that rarely heard from and intelligent contributors (like Greg Walley) can feel like we appreciate their input here on BR Central and aren't chased away by all the animosity.
Joel
p.s. I benefit from both Al's and GG's posts,would hate to lose either of you guys,but I would trade you both ( in a heart beat) for a couple hours of opinion from Greg.
Gee, let's see what's going on on BR Central ?
Looks like some self appointed district attorney of BR is grilling Al from Wa on freakin' neck trimming.
Some guys( and gunsmiths)have a minimalistic approach to chamber/die relationships. If one adheres to this concept then everything works fine and nobody has to trim any brass, for like a million years. Once somebody starts snortin' up the loads, the whole minimalistic thing goes to hell,cases get sticky on extraction and a more( not so mimimalistic)aggressive sizing regimen is in order. The more one resizes( so the raped and abused brass can function)the more brass flows and needs trimmed. So cut the crap and move on, so that rarely heard from and intelligent contributors (like Greg Walley) can feel like we appreciate their input here on BR Central and aren't chased away by all the animosity.
Joel
p.s. I benefit from both Al's and GG's posts,would hate to lose either of you guys,but I would trade you both ( in a heart beat) for a couple hours of opinion from Greg.
OOhhh Joel, you're making me all hot that Shakespearean reference and intelligentsia stuff
Note this though, as Greg says, HOT ain't got a whole lot to do with it.... fit does. You can get 50-100 firings even running HOT. And note that THIS THREAD got Walley's attention. I value that.
Now Greg.... I wanna' see some more closeups. You ever find your pics? I think BRC needs some Muzzle Scratch Imagery courtesy of Kelbly's Incorporated....
al
Note this though, as Greg says, HOT ain't got a whole lot to do with it.... fit does. You can get 50-100 firings even running HOT. And note that THIS THREAD got Walley's attention. I value that.
Now Greg.... I wanna' see some more closeups. You ever find your pics? I think BRC needs some Muzzle Scratch Imagery courtesy of Kelbly's Incorporated....
al