Grinding HSS bits

Ronnie Maxwell

New member
I am sure the title has been discussed before but would like to hear from those that use HSS bits for turning CM and SS barrel tenons and the like. i do use inserts for threading and some times for turning but still like HSS bits. but would like to know what angles most grind for the side/front relieve, side/back angles, etc. i have tried the suggestions in books but find most of the time i need more angle.

if anyone has photos to post it would be great.

Ron
 
I am sure the title has been discussed before but would like to hear from those that use HSS bits for turning CM and SS barrel tenons and the like. i do use inserts for threading and some times for turning but still like HSS bits. but would like to know what angles most grind for the side/front relieve, side/back angles, etc. i have tried the suggestions in books but find most of the time i need more angle.

if anyone has photos to post it would be great.

Ron

If your bottom clearance is too shallow it may be the holder you use them in. On lantern type holders, most have a built in rise of either 5 or 11 degrees depending on the holder.

Normal net clearance of 7-8 degrees is sufficient for the materials we work with. Below are a few of what I use. I do go overboard on top clearance and use a "top lip" since I don't like to fight the chip. And these are tools to machine a crown and also have a bottom clearance to allow machining the crown from the ID to the OD.



 
In addition to what Jerry mentioned, there was recently a thread here started by Bob Pastor. he gave a bunch of info on some indexable hss tooling and that may be of interest to you.

When you're trying to find the sweet spot in the angles, don't forget that just as important as the side of the tool, the tool height is a big piece of the pie. If you can sorta visualize the insert as it cuts, remember that for specialty cuts, there may be a different angle on the front of the insert (tool) as there is on the side. Feed rate that is light might require a itty bitty bit less angle than if you are feeding at a "proper" rate. Much of what we do in gunsmithing is at speeds and feeds way below ideal for the tool. So, angles have to be changed accordingly.

The height of the tool effectively alters the angle. Visualize the end side of a round in the chuck and you're getting ready to reduce the diameter. If you raise the tool, you need to increase the tool relief angle to allow the tool to cut. Makes sense since the part is round and as we move up, the point has to be extended more. There will be a sweet spot where you achieve the finish you want, and that might depend some on the machine. I'd say that the more sloppy the machine, the less likely you are to get away with good results when you raise the tool way above center. At some point, the tool might begin to pull itself in and that's generally not desirable. I think a lot of times, people will put too much angle on the left side of the tool because they made it equal to the front, and with a slow feed and a not so solid carriage, that's not a great idea.

Nothing said here is going to really solve things to where you get perfect results. Finding that spot is something you just have to try by grinding. As Jerry said, using the approximate angles used by commercial insert companies is a great place to start. And, if you go take a look at some of the websites, they will give you detailed drawing of the inserts that will really help you get your head around the angles. Start there, and don't get too far from their example, even though, your feeds/speeds are no where near what production stuff runs.

Most of all, find a way to put a nice radius on all your tools, and make sure the angles are kept intact when you do. On fine stuff, I put them on by hand with a stone cause I simply can't make .003 radii on a wheel. Remember when you cut, you're supposed to bury the radius. So, if you want to make decent looking cuts and not take a lot of material each pass, then ideally the radius needs to be smaller. I've got one particular boring bar I like to use for small work and I've got .003 and .007 radius tools for in it. There's a noticeable difference between the two when doing fine, slow work.

Last but not least, use the feed lever any time it's possible. I know it's not on the compound, but, think about it, if you don't maintain a consistent speed, then the tool angle is effectively changing every revolution, and it's no wonder a part looks ugly.
 
http://web.mit.edu/2.670/www/Tutorials/Machining/lathe/Description.html

This guide is ok, but a machinst manual would be better.

Some people get excited about a chip breaker, but I never liked using one much, it makes resharpening more of a pita. A right turn facing tool, 60 deg threading and a small carbide boring bar does everything I need to rebarrel a rifle. What can be achieved simply should not be complicated.

I'd post some pics of tools, but last time I did, people jumped all over me.

Ben
 
Jerry,

i read you post again and now see those bits are for crownings and reason for the amount of front and side clearance. i will try and grind similar. i use an quick change post on my 1440

Ron
 
Jerry,

thanks for the photos. do you use the lantern post?

I use the lantern type for some setups. Its according to what mood I'm in that day and how much rigidity I need. A lantern can be set up to be much more rigid than an Aloris type.

The Aloris type is much beefier but they have a great deal of overhang and it is outside the cross slide ways. The Aloris type can be set up to where it is almost inside the ways by setting the cam post to the right edge of the compound.
 
[Some people get excited about a chip breaker, but I never liked using one much, it makes resharpening more of a pita. A
Ben

A chipbreaker is more of a safety issue than to just break chips. I've seen fingers lost to a long stringy chip.
 
As I said before, it really depends on your lathe and how you run it. For me, if you want to ask specific angles, I'd say I grind the face to >5 deg (sounds similar to Jerry) and probably about 2.5-3 on the left. I again, blend the radius with a stone cause I suck at doing the small radii on a wheel, and I hate getting out the radius jig and setting it up. As bhnpr says, keep it simple.

After going to those angles, I'd use the tool height to find the sweet spot. (for od turning). Fact is, in chambering, none of the od work is all that critical. So who cares. It's going to be removed when you thread anyhow. The faces are the ones you want nice, and they're really not difficult. Just don't let a point on your tool. That's almost a certain disaster for the finish.

If you end up with more face angle, all you do is raise the tool to compensate, and the more you raise it, the more you've made a top relief angle without grinding one. If you follow what I mean. Ultimately, at some point you want the ground surface to help maintain the cut depth. The last thing you want is for the tool to grab. Avoid that and all else is fine. On faces of solid parts, this is most likely when you have the tool below center, and the diameter is reduced to where the part pulls the carriage forward under it. wham, bam, pow... that's bad.
 
As an aside, IIII MMMM OOOO, I really don't think the angles are critical at all. They can be fixed with the tool setup. The part that makes or breaks a finish is nice radii.
 
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