Great barrels or Great Gunsmithing?

W

Wildcatter

Guest
Over the years we have had, read about, and seen Great Barrels.

Question, have the barrels we shot been, some much better than others,OR, have some been chambered better or worse?

In match reports we notice some barrel brands mentioned more than others, AND, we have noticed some gunsmiths mentioned more than others. Is there a relationship?

Notice that our top shooter of all times,TB, over the years has sometimes changed both.

So???
 
Great barrels trump all, you need a good gunsmith but if the barrel ain't good a perfect chamber job ain't going to make it shoot!
 
Wildcatter said:
Over the years we have had, read about, and seen Great Barrels.

Question, have the barrels we shot been, some much better than others,OR, have some been chambered better or worse?

In match reports we notice some barrel brands mentioned more than others, AND, we have noticed some gunsmiths mentioned more than others. Is there a relationship?

Notice that our top shooter of all times,TB, over the years has sometimes changed both.

So???
Click to expand...

Since I chamber my own barrels, I suppose I can say that the "Gunmithing" has remained consistant through the 20+ years I have been involved in Competitive Benchrest. I look at barrel work the same way I do any other Machining operation. You check and verify everything.

Through those years, I have had barrels that were certainly a cut above, so to speak. But since about 1999, I have shot nothing but Kriegers. The reason is they are very consistent with their groove diameters, and they generally keep the lands within a "tenth or two" of what it is suppose to be. This goes for both their 6mm and 30 caliber barrels.

Some do shoot better than others. I have no explanation as to why. I used to put great pains into ascertaining why some barrels shoot better than others, but now, I just chamber them up and let the target be the deciding factor.

I have actually given barrels away that I thought were sub par, only to have the Shooter I gave it to come back and do quite well with it.

Some years back, a notable shooter bought some used barrels from another very well known shooter who said up front that he could not get them to shoot. One was a Unlimited Krieger. The shooter cut it off, rechambered it, and it was a winner. Possibly one of the best barrels I ever saw. Go figure.

One other aspect of this is the bullets we shoot. I am beginning to believe that you have a better chance of getting a "great" barrel than you do "great" bullets. Keep in mind, all of the top Bullet Makers make VERY GOOD bullets. But, for what ever reason, (they are at the mercy of their material suppliers), we sometimes get a Lot of bullets than simply seem agg better than another, even though upon visual inspection you can't see any difference.

Back through 2005 through 2008, I had such bullets. Anybody that has been around the Gulf Coast Region that long knows how good that particular Lot of bullets was. When I ran out, my shooting suffered.I did not suddenly forget how to shoot.

Some shooters keep multitudes of different brands of bullets on hand so they can find what a particular barrel likes. "Feed the barrel what it likes", so to speak. Many of us tend to stick with a "tried and true" combination that we know is competitive, and just chalk it up to bad luck if a particular barrel, or Lot of bullets, doesn't live up to our expectations.

For me, Short Range Benchrest has always been a crap shoot. You put your coin in, pull the handle, and see what come up. If it's lemons, then you stick another coin in.
 
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Well said Jackie

jackie schmidt said:
Since I chamber my own barrels, I suppose I can say that the "Gunmithing" has remained consistant through the 20+ years I have been involved in Competitive Benchrest. I look at barrel work the same way I do any other Machining operation. You check and verify everything.

Through those years, I have had barrels that were certainly a cut above, so to speak. But since about 1999, I have shot nothing but Kriegers. The reason is they are very consistent with their groove diameters, and they generally keep the lands within a "tenth or two" of what it is suppose to be. This goes for both their 6mm and 30 caliber barrels.

Some do shoot better than others. I have no explanation as to why. I used to put great pains into ascertaining why some barrels shoot better than others, but now, I just chamber them up and let the target be the deciding factor.

I have actually given barrels away that I thought were sub par, only to have the Shooter I gave it to come back and do quite well with it.

Some years back, a notable shooter bought some used barrels from another very well known shooter who said up front that he could not get them to shoot. One was a Unlimited Krieger. The shooter cut it off, rechambered it, and it was a winner. Possibly one of the best barrels I ever saw. Go figure.

One other aspect of this is the bullets we shoot. I am beginning to believe that you have a better chance of getting a "great" barrel than you do "great" bullets. Keep in mind, all of the top Bullet Makers make VERY GOOD bullets. But, for what ever reason, (they are at the mercy of their material suppliers), we sometimes get a Lot of bullets than simply seem agg better than another, even though upon visual inspection you can't see any difference.

Back through 2005 through 2008, I had such bullets. Anybody that has been around the Gulf Coast Region that long knows how good that particular Lot of bullets was. When I ran out, my shooting suffered.I did not suddenly forget how to shoot.

Some shooters keep multitudes of different brands of bullets on hand so they can find what a particular barrel likes. "Feed the barrel what it likes", so to speak. Many of us tend to stick with a "tried and true" combination that we know is competitive, and just chalk it up to bad luck if a particular barrel, or Lot of bullets, doesn't live up to our expectations.

For me, Short Range Benchrest has always been a crap shoot. You put your coin in, pull the handle, and see what come up. If it's lemons, then you stick another coin in.
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Right on Jackie! I agree completely.

Gene Beggs
 
searching for answers!

It would be great if Larry Costa, Gene B. and Tony B. would weigh in on this topic. They may know more about this than anyone else. From my limited experience: If you have a great barrel it may still like a select bullet. Had couple was that way. One was a unlimited and other was old shilen. Chamber and crown make a difference . Especially the chamber from barrel to barrel. Finding seating depth etc. from barrel to barrel. I have shot bullets in "Known good barrel" that were not competitive although previous lot from same maker shot great. Run of mill barrels will not shoot great without great bullets. "Hummers" shoot ok with marginal bullets but great with great bullets! My Two cents worth
 
Just call any of those three and ask them how many barrels they bought. I could be wrong but I think it's more than one.
 
Wilbur:

I know it is more than one but i also know it is not as many as most folks think. They are very careful as to how barrels are chamber and crowned. Us run of mill shooters do not go to the efforts they do in this area. we accept what we we get from "smith". Therefore when they check a new barrel they know in a few rounds if it is good or bad. When they use their known good bullets they have a narrow window when they know a barrel will shoot. unlike us "normal shooters we search for seating depth etc. Larry and Gene Buyks please weigh in. I also know from my own experience even a good barrel will not shoot "lights out" without great bullets. thanks jim c.
 
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I've never had a great barrel nor have I ever had a bad barrel. Those tales about barrels that defy the wind, probably more the shooter having confidence than anything, IMO.

One time at the Cactus Ferris Pindell took a special loading and had Don Geraci shoot it. Geraci said it would "defy the wind at 200". Turns out it was a Ferris 81 grain bullet in a 40 degree PPC.

So, do we need to shoot something heavier than 65-68 grainers?

Bart is working on that, or was.



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When I was hanging out with the local stool shoooters, I remember TJ Jackson telling me a few times " Barrels are just like women, the great ones are rare"
 
It's difficult, if not impossible, to make this call. Benchrest shooters tend to stay with what "has worked" almost to a fault. I'll offer one example so you'll grasp what I'm sayin' here. When Keith Gantt decided to give it up, I bought his rifle. The rifle was a winner in every respect. Keith had just bought a new barrel for the rifle and it simply would not agg less than .4XX....so Keith said "and here's this brand new barrel that won't shoot". I laughed and threw it in the car. I fooled around with that barrel and found that it would shoot that really fat bullet I made extremely well. I won a whole bunch with that barrel but it didn't sink in what happened there for quite some time. I did begin to think that the barrel just decided to shoot and tried some regular bullets...found out quickly that was wrong. That barrel and those bullets....

BTW - Keith called yesterday to invite me to a rimfire shoot in Chattanooga...about 50 miles away. I think I'll go! I've got about 400 bullets that might go "bang".....
 
Wilbur said:
It's difficult, if not impossible, to make this call. Benchrest shooters tend to stay with what "has worked" almost to a fault. I'll offer one example so you'll grasp what I'm sayin' here. When Keith Gantt decided to give it up, I bought his rifle. The rifle was a winner in every respect. Keith had just bought a new barrel for the rifle and it simply would not agg less than .4XX....so Keith said "and here's this brand new barrel that won't shoot". I laughed and threw it in the car. I fooled around with that barrel and found that it would shoot that really fat bullet I made extremely well. I won a whole bunch with that barrel but it didn't sink in what happened there for quite some time. I did begin to think that the barrel just decided to shoot and tried some regular bullets...found out quickly that was wrong. That barrel and those bullets....

BTW - Keith called yesterday to invite me to a rimfire shoot in Chattanooga...about 50 miles away. I think I'll go! I've got about 400 bullets that might go "bang".....
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I agree Wilbur. I think it's the whole kit and kaboodle that make the really great rifles, great.

Another story similar to Jackie's...I was the third owner of a 30 cal barrel that the previous two people said just wouldn't shoot. I set it back and re chambered it and it became one of, if not the best, barrel(s) I've had, on that rifle. I did nothing special and as I recall, it scoped fine before I did anything to it. I had to cut the whole tenon off to get rid of the old chamber, but not because it appeared to need it at all. I had to, to rechamber in my 30 Major from a 30 BR.

I feel like tuners are opening the possibility of finding that "right" combination in many cases, allowing us to get the potential from not only the barrel, but the whole rifle, to a large degree. As most know, a tuner won't fix a bad barrel but they do let us get the gun and load's potential from them.
 
mwezell said:
I agree Wilbur. I think it's the whole kit and kaboodle that make the really great rifles, great.


I feel like tuners are opening the possibility of finding that "right" combination in many cases, allowing us to get the potential from not only the barrel, but the whole rifle, to a large degree. As most know, a tuner won't fix a bad barrel but they do let us get the gun and load's potential from them.
Click to expand...


In the 2005 season when I shot tuners all the way through, even before IBS had officially approved them, I learned a tuner can sometimes get a little more out of a barrel that was not finished in its best natural tune.

One of the Super Texans, T. J. or Harold, I forget, would keep trimming the length of a barrel till he got it to its best. A tuner can sometimes do that....and sometimes not. If a barrel is too far out of its natural resonance for the weight of the tuner being used the tuner will not get the barrel to its very best.

A tuner in the 10 oz range will bring most barrels in,but, that requires the barrel to be down to about 4# or less to make LV.


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Think about this...

When we finish a new barrel, or have it done, we start shooting it. If it shoots competitively, we keep shooting it. But, do we ever take a marginal barrel and trim its length to see if it improves? Probably not, partly because on a centre fire barrel this extra shooting shortens its life.

A rimfire barrel has a much longer shooting life and can be super-tuned. That is what Calfee does, super tunes. That much time consuming is why those finished barrels cost upward of $3,000.

There is an old article, somewhere, about the Super Texan's trimming about 1/8" each trip to the range till it "comes in"!!!

.
 
JerrySharrett said:
When we finish a new barrel, or have it done, we start shooting it. If it shoots competitively, we keep shooting it. But, do we ever take a marginal barrel and trim its length to see if it improves? Probably not, partly because on a centre fire barrel this extra shooting shortens its life.

A rimfire barrel has a much longer shooting life and can be super-tuned. That is what Calfee does, super tunes. That much time consuming is why those finished barrels cost upward of $3,000.

There is an old article, somewhere, about the Super Texan's trimming about 1/8" each trip to the range till it "comes in"!!!

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Click to expand...

Jerry, that article was "the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse" that was published in Precision Shooting magazine. I don't remember who wrote it, but T.J.Jackson and Virgil King were participants in the shooting.
 
Mike Bryant said:
Jerry, that article was "the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse" that was published in Precision Shooting magazine. I don't remember who wrote it, but T.J.Jackson and Virgil King were participants in the shooting.
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Mike, there is a link to the article on another thread on the General Forum.

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