when you come down to it, its all guess work, with the tools we have we can get a different measurement each time used, and I am familiar with the tools that Charles is talking about. its a matter of how far you want to take it. the holes will look and be completely different from point blank to 1000 yard targets. Why should he have to defend it? if you don't give a rats ass then don't post or get involved, he has nothing to prove to you or me. He is just glad to be involved and gain knowledge and skills to improve his game. Ron Tilley
when you come down to it, its all guess work, with the tools we have we can get a different measurement each time used, and I am familiar with the tools that Charles is talking about. its a matter of how far you want to take it. the holes will look and be completely different from point blank to 1000 yard targets. Why should he have to defend it? if you don't give a rats ass then don't post or get involved, he has nothing to prove to you or me. He is just glad to be involved and gain knowledge and skills to improve his game. Ron Tilley
Ron & Jeff, I don't know what is going on with you two; I'm tempted to just abandon this thread.
I didn't take him as bragging. I took him to think that since he had a .107, he had a fine tune on his rifle. My reply was (& it looks to me that way even more with the caliper out of the way) that he has a nice .200. Moreover, the target seems to have a little vertical, as does the the target in the gun case with the original post.
Now maybe that vertical won't show up at 1,000 yards. But if it does, I'd not mess with seating depth, I'd cut the load, about .3 to .5 grains. Of course., that's just what I'd do, YMMV.
The issue about the size of the group is that .1s are rare as hens teeth; if you're there, you try & keep them. Agging in the .2s with a long-range rifle is real nice, but nothing to bet the ranch on. If you're at .2, you can feel comfortable to keep on working. If I was agging in the .1s, I'd just flat quit.
Whatever the replies, this is going to be my last post on this thread; as an old man, I prefer shooting to pissing.
I didn't take him as bragging. I took him to think that since he had a .107, he had a fine tune on his rifle. My reply was (& it looks to me that way even more with the caliper out of the way) that he has a nice .200. Moreover, the target seems to have a little vertical, as does the the target in the gun case with the original post.
Now maybe that vertical won't show up at 1,000 yards. But if it does, I'd not mess with seating depth, I'd cut the load, about .3 to .5 grains. Of course., that's just what I'd do, YMMV.
The issue about the size of the group is that .1s are rare as hens teeth; if you're there, you try & keep them. Agging in the .2s with a long-range rifle is real nice, but nothing to bet the ranch on. If you're at .2, you can feel comfortable to keep on working. If I was agging in the .1s, I'd just flat quit.
Whatever the replies, this is going to be my last post on this thread; as an old man, I prefer shooting to pissing.
J
Jeff in OH
Guest
Nothing "between" anyone as I don't know Ron or Stan, nor do I care to know either of them. However, you would think that if someone is going to post a picture of a group and claim a 0.107" measurement of said group, they would know HOW to accurately measure that group, including actually measuring the outside edges of the two bullet holes that are furthest apart (which is measurement error #3 here). It seems neither Stan nor Ron capture the gist of properly "field measuring" this group so I give up!
FWIW, in future posts lay a ruler next to the group and round UP to the next 1/8" and you will have no comments. When you want to measure to the nearest 0.001" then I suggest you know what the heck you are doing.
I'd say this post has gotten way more attention than it or the rifle, group, and shooter deserve, so I am out also.
CYA!
FWIW, in future posts lay a ruler next to the group and round UP to the next 1/8" and you will have no comments. When you want to measure to the nearest 0.001" then I suggest you know what the heck you are doing.
I'd say this post has gotten way more attention than it or the rifle, group, and shooter deserve, so I am out also.
CYA!
B
BigBamBoo
Guest
Well Jeff I have never seen anyone measure a group your way...but then again I am sure you know much more than most. Either way....have a nice night. You know you could always post some of your groups and show us all how to do it right...but then I am sure your above all that,right?
Peace,Stan
Peace,Stan
what a mature little boy you are, good reply. Ron Tilley
J
Jeffreytooker
Guest
"And now for the rest of the story"
Jeff in Ohio:
It is not the actual "True , Accurate with calibrated calipers" size of the group that counts here. All others respondents to this thread have been supportive and helpfull. Then you come in like a bucket of ice water. It is like you want to drive people out of this sport.
It was my 1000 yard match that Stan shot yesterday and I paid out the money to Stan for the smallest group of the match. The group was 3.923 at 1000 yards. The man that measured the group is an ARA sanctioned match director. So I know the group measurement is good. That may not be a great group where you shoot, but at our match it is very respectable. Stan has put his money where his mouth is.
Stan is rather new in this game. The rifle was made by Bruno and he got it a few weeks ago. He has come very far in those weeks and is an honest and gracious competitor. So if you question the size of Stans groups or his honesty, bring your rifle to one of our matches, and shoot against Stan and the rest. I will pay your entry fee.
Jeffrey Tooker
Jeff in Ohio:
It is not the actual "True , Accurate with calibrated calipers" size of the group that counts here. All others respondents to this thread have been supportive and helpfull. Then you come in like a bucket of ice water. It is like you want to drive people out of this sport.
It was my 1000 yard match that Stan shot yesterday and I paid out the money to Stan for the smallest group of the match. The group was 3.923 at 1000 yards. The man that measured the group is an ARA sanctioned match director. So I know the group measurement is good. That may not be a great group where you shoot, but at our match it is very respectable. Stan has put his money where his mouth is.
Stan is rather new in this game. The rifle was made by Bruno and he got it a few weeks ago. He has come very far in those weeks and is an honest and gracious competitor. So if you question the size of Stans groups or his honesty, bring your rifle to one of our matches, and shoot against Stan and the rest. I will pay your entry fee.
Jeffrey Tooker
D
Danny Brooks
Guest
Can't we all get along!
I do not understand what all the fuss is about. Congrats on the small group of the match. And keep shooting for the fun of it.
Let's not bicker about these small details as it hurts us all in the sport. If the man is happy with it, then mission accomplished.
Charles was not trying to deminish your efforts, but trying to help, as he often does. I have known him now for about ten years and he will be one of the first to offer help and congratulate you also.
good luck,
Danny
I do not understand what all the fuss is about. Congrats on the small group of the match. And keep shooting for the fun of it.
Let's not bicker about these small details as it hurts us all in the sport. If the man is happy with it, then mission accomplished.
Charles was not trying to deminish your efforts, but trying to help, as he often does. I have known him now for about ten years and he will be one of the first to offer help and congratulate you also.
good luck,
Danny
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
Very nice looking rifle to boot. It's nice to have one that looks good and shoots good.
L
LASER
Guest
At a hunnert?
I thought ALL target guns shot That good an 100 yds. What does it do at 3. How does it shoot in the wind? Only reason to get your bowels in an uproar is the winning part. Dumb luck that the 100 yds stuff worked out. NOBODY I know tests long range stuff at 100 yds? Good Luck! Hope it holds up for you!!!
LASER
Well I have a 1000yrd match coming up this weekend so I have been at the range almost every day working on load development for the 6XC bench rifle.
I found two loads (about a grain apart) that looked really good. So I then started playing with bullet seating depth. Starting will the bullet "jammed" in the lands and working my way down .010" per 5 shot load.
I ended up with this load as my keeper (see pic of FIVE shot group @ 100yrds.)...ended up liking to be seated .010" in the lands. Going down another .010" opened the group up t0 3/4"...VERY sensitive to seating depth. The next steps under that closed the groups up a bit but still not as good as this load.
Load info:
Norma brass neck sized (.267 bushing)
39.5gns of H4350 powder
115gn DTAC bullets
Wolf LR primers
2.200" ogive length
Take care,Stan
I thought ALL target guns shot That good an 100 yds. What does it do at 3. How does it shoot in the wind? Only reason to get your bowels in an uproar is the winning part. Dumb luck that the 100 yds stuff worked out. NOBODY I know tests long range stuff at 100 yds? Good Luck! Hope it holds up for you!!!
LASER
B
BigBamBoo
Guest
Well I just shot a 300 yard match today with it and shot a 1.012" 5 shot group (measured by the gent running the match). And Came in 2nd over all doing all my 10 shots for score in 1 min. 43 sec.....long story.
And last week I shot a 3.923" group at 1000yrd for winning small group of the match verified by the gent running the match as mentioned above.
So I guess my "dumb luck" rifle and loads are doing ok.
Take care,Stan
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Stan,
For most of us, testing is to help our match performance. Your testing seems to be meeting your needs. If it happens that your match performance no longer satisfies you, go back to testing.
As far as testing at 100 yards goes, many of us do. Some people do have 1,000 at ranges at home, for them testing at distance is easy. For the rest of us, no.
There are two schools of though on working up groups at 100 yards. Some of us believe the results of the testing done at Aberdeen, later confirmed by the NRA. This was done by shooting through multiple screens from 100 out to 1,000 yards -- I forget all the intervals, but there were a number of them. At Aberdeen, they found shot dispersion to be linear. That is, a 1 MOA group at 100 yards remained 1 MOA at 1,000 yards, IF velocity variations were not excessive. A fair sized IF. In any case, velocity variations affect vertical dispersion only, the horizontal dispersion always remained constant.
On the other side, there seem to be some who believe that groups get smaller as distance increases -- that is, a rifle and load might shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but it will shoot .5 MOA at 600 or 1,000. As far as I know, those who hold this have never confirmed their belief by shooting through multiple screens -- that is, the same group on a paper at both 100 and 1,000 yards. The belief is always of the form "my groups at 1,000 are smaller than my groups at 100."
As to Laser's other comment, "I thought ALL target guns shot That good an 100 yds": A look at the match reports from point-blank benchrest matches doesn't bear this out.
At this point, you're shooting well enough that all any of us can say is keep on at the matches, & let your testing fit your needs.
For most of us, testing is to help our match performance. Your testing seems to be meeting your needs. If it happens that your match performance no longer satisfies you, go back to testing.
As far as testing at 100 yards goes, many of us do. Some people do have 1,000 at ranges at home, for them testing at distance is easy. For the rest of us, no.
There are two schools of though on working up groups at 100 yards. Some of us believe the results of the testing done at Aberdeen, later confirmed by the NRA. This was done by shooting through multiple screens from 100 out to 1,000 yards -- I forget all the intervals, but there were a number of them. At Aberdeen, they found shot dispersion to be linear. That is, a 1 MOA group at 100 yards remained 1 MOA at 1,000 yards, IF velocity variations were not excessive. A fair sized IF. In any case, velocity variations affect vertical dispersion only, the horizontal dispersion always remained constant.
On the other side, there seem to be some who believe that groups get smaller as distance increases -- that is, a rifle and load might shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but it will shoot .5 MOA at 600 or 1,000. As far as I know, those who hold this have never confirmed their belief by shooting through multiple screens -- that is, the same group on a paper at both 100 and 1,000 yards. The belief is always of the form "my groups at 1,000 are smaller than my groups at 100."
As to Laser's other comment, "I thought ALL target guns shot That good an 100 yds": A look at the match reports from point-blank benchrest matches doesn't bear this out.
At this point, you're shooting well enough that all any of us can say is keep on at the matches, & let your testing fit your needs.