Getting Started
- Thread starter kujones
- Start date
!st go to the club you intend to shoot & see what they're doing. Sanctioned br matches, or something different. Find out the rules to be sure whatever you buy conforms to them.
If its informal br matches one of the factory guns may compete. i.e, Annie, 40x, Suhl, Cooper, etc.
But if its sanctioned br matches then buy a used custom rifle & shoot it before you buy it. Trust me, you'll spend less.
I went a different route & ended up frustrated, none the wiser, & cost a fortune.
But 1st & foremost, get to some matches & talk to the competitors. You'll learn a ton & pick up on what's needed.
Keith
If its informal br matches one of the factory guns may compete. i.e, Annie, 40x, Suhl, Cooper, etc.
But if its sanctioned br matches then buy a used custom rifle & shoot it before you buy it. Trust me, you'll spend less.
I went a different route & ended up frustrated, none the wiser, & cost a fortune.
But 1st & foremost, get to some matches & talk to the competitors. You'll learn a ton & pick up on what's needed.
Keith
Slick Willy
Member
Get a Good used 40x 0r Suhl!
These can compete with a Ratchet, Muller or good 4g after market barrel ! around $1800-2000 for a good one ! Annie`s not so well unless they have the good Wing Safety Ignition ! Otherwise you will have more fun Midget Bowling ! If you just want to plink stay with the CZ !
These can compete with a Ratchet, Muller or good 4g after market barrel ! around $1800-2000 for a good one ! Annie`s not so well unless they have the good Wing Safety Ignition ! Otherwise you will have more fun Midget Bowling ! If you just want to plink stay with the CZ !
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
One of the issues
our sport faces is an entry level or the lack of one. I realize that it is very difficult to run a true factory class, been there, done that but still, I have always thought we could all benefit by having some sort of entry level for folks to get started and or give it a try. Of course, there is nothing that prevents folks from just showing up and shooting what they brung. Ain't a lot of fun though.
Joe Haller use to run a true factory class in which he had a strict claiming rule. I suppose that could be troublesome as well. Mebby why what we got is what we got?
Pete
our sport faces is an entry level or the lack of one. I realize that it is very difficult to run a true factory class, been there, done that but still, I have always thought we could all benefit by having some sort of entry level for folks to get started and or give it a try. Of course, there is nothing that prevents folks from just showing up and shooting what they brung. Ain't a lot of fun though.
Joe Haller use to run a true factory class in which he had a strict claiming rule. I suppose that could be troublesome as well. Mebby why what we got is what we got?
Pete
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Pete
my take on the factory class is that its only troublesome because a few want to stretch the limits beyond the breaking point with their "factory rifles". A Cooper is a factory rifle but its in a league by itself compared to a 52 or 37, which are in a league of their own compared to a Mossberg 44, 144, Savage etc.
my take on the factory class is that its only troublesome because a few want to stretch the limits beyond the breaking point with their "factory rifles". A Cooper is a factory rifle but its in a league by itself compared to a 52 or 37, which are in a league of their own compared to a Mossberg 44, 144, Savage etc.
vtmarmot
P Magoon, Livin' Free NH
See what you're local club is shooting first. I am not close to any IR50/50 matches other than Country Pond, in Southern NH. They are heavily sporter oriented. The majority of cards will be shot with one. I had to scratch to get one of my rifles to make 7.5 pounds. My first experience there was last summer. The previous fall I had bought a Cooper 57M. In hindsight, I would have been better off to look for a used sporter on this sight's classifieds or from Bob White, because the sporter would have got a lot more use. You won't be shooting a 13.5 pound rifle very much by comparison.
Which is what I had said Peter. Know what there is available for you to shoot before buying anything. We're the same sporter heavy at Lincoln County up in ME. To a fault probably as neither William or I get much attendance. We still allow anyone to shoot whatever they bring however.
Another example is a couple guys in northern NH put together a couple customs last year. One Joe Chacon built & another built a F-Class gun on a 2500x that weighs something like 15lbs. Both with 42x+ scopes. They still come & shoot & enjoy themselves but admittedly didn't know our rules. And frankly, didn't seem to care. They built what they wanted. Wayne did allow me to add a UL class for them & let them shoot simultaneously with us.
Which is another topic that deserves some consideration, especially for those of us that have put ourselves out on an island so to speak. Allow the different classes to shoot together. It works in other organizations.
Keith
Kyle Schultz
Member
Slick Willy
Member
JP "The Hammer" Nelson
Just picked up JP Nelsons 4 22RFBR Rifles ,Don`t Have pictures yet ! He has two 40X`s , Suhl & a Falcon/two barrels ! You can see`em & Shoot`em @ ChickenFoot this weekend !
Just picked up JP Nelsons 4 22RFBR Rifles ,Don`t Have pictures yet ! He has two 40X`s , Suhl & a Falcon/two barrels ! You can see`em & Shoot`em @ ChickenFoot this weekend !
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
The earlu CZ452's with a trigger spring change and some Lapua Midas M worked great.
But finding any Midas M?
,
But finding any Midas M?
,
Pete, I think I briefly met you down at Kettlefoot this past summer at the Nationals. Weren't you with Keith for the Champs of Champs or whatever they called those matches? Anyway, good to meet you.
My issue with what you mentioned is not so much the need for separating these matches by class, but why don't people just shoot what they have? Why can't you bring your CZ, Anschutz, Winchester, Remington or whatever you have and shoot the thing? Nothing against it in the rules if you use the proper rests.
Not smart enough to come up with psychological reasons people act the way they do, but can't understand why someone would be afraid to shoot what they have against custom rifles. Did it for years and had a blast. Told this story to someone once, but it pretty much defines how I feel about this "entry level class" dilemma. Was at the Mid Atlantic Regionals down at Kettlefoot a couple of years ago. My buddy calls me and asks how I'm doing. Tell him I've got Fred Sears on one side of me, Chuck Morrell on the other. One leads the ARA standings, the other leads the PSL standings. Both are trying to figure out what ammo to use when they go to St Louis. And I'm sitting there shooting a gun that costs $400! But, you know what, I finished ahead of people who used custom guns! Just not Fred or Chuck
Point is, people get intimidated I suppose. But personally don't understand why. Would be nice if people weren't so focused on the whole "I want to win or I won't compete" thing. First match I ever shot in was the Indoor Nationals. Took the peep sights off a gun, stuck on a scope and away I went. My buddy brought his Winchester, I took an Anschutz. No tuners, no nothing. And we had a blast! Just don't understand people that won't go try this out with what they have on hand.
One nice thing that Bill Hinegardner used to do when he ran matches. And this goes back to what Keith mentioned earlier...Went to matches and would be sitting there waiting until I could shoot my gun in 13.5. Bill would ask why wasn't I shooting and I'd say it's because my gun is too heavy or didn't qualify due to whatever reason. Was shooting a Win 52C at that match... Anyway, Bill told me to get the gun up to the line and shoot the darn thing. No need to sit there and just watch. And no, my scores didn't count, but at least I got to shoot a little and had some fun for a few minutes instead of just sitting there on my hands. Loved that the guys at those matches tried to include me. Made me want to come back.
Compare to recently...me and a couple of friends went to a match. We couldn't shoot three gun, just 10 shot and UL. But we asked if we could just draw benches and set up our stuff. No issues with that. Next we asked if we could just hang a practice target and mess around while the other people shot their matches. No issues with that. It was fun! We didn't just have to sit there and waste time. Made the trip over to the match worth it. No, we didn't get up and down or go back and forth from the bench. Just sat there and shot a few shots when we felt like it. And nothing counted towards anything.
Yet, someone got butt hurt about it. Maybe it's against the rules? I don't know. But we're not allowed to do that anymore. We sit for two hours and watch four or five people say "Look at me, I shoot sporter! I shoot three gun. Yay me!" Personally don't care if they do. It's neat that there are classes in IR and there is a rich history of sporter and three gun. But for newcomers, and the majority of the rest of us in this game, it can get boring just sitting there waiting to shoot a few cards for score. But again, if that's what the people want, then it's fine. I don't make the rules so can't complain. But when the debate of what to do to get people into this comes along, I'd recommend that maybe do as Keith mentioned. Let the people who come at least shoot their guns. It wouldn't be scored for record, but at least it gives them a reason to come to a match and see what it's about.
But again, I don't know. Maybe its just the simple fact that this is expensive and that's what keeps most away from getting into it.
JMO
Kenny
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The important thing in all this is to get people started, The easiest way to do that is to either let the use their own equipment or borrow others. Most want to shoot their own.
I had discussed my dilemma about a few guys with wrong rifles to Wayne & asked if classes could shoot simultaneously. He allowed it & told me to add UL to the already existing schedule for ease of the scoring program.
And so 2 or 3 guys would shoot that as we were shooting either a sporter or 3 gun match.
I would like to see Jason allow the same & will hopefully discuss this with him next week. I may even post a separate thread to get other shooters thoughts on this. But I'm going to let whoever shows up shoot whatever they want, Their results just won't be sent in if their equipment don't meet the rules.
As I said, the important thing is that people started. Whether they want to make further investment is up to them.
Keith
I had discussed my dilemma about a few guys with wrong rifles to Wayne & asked if classes could shoot simultaneously. He allowed it & told me to add UL to the already existing schedule for ease of the scoring program.
And so 2 or 3 guys would shoot that as we were shooting either a sporter or 3 gun match.
I would like to see Jason allow the same & will hopefully discuss this with him next week. I may even post a separate thread to get other shooters thoughts on this. But I'm going to let whoever shows up shoot whatever they want, Their results just won't be sent in if their equipment don't meet the rules.
As I said, the important thing is that people started. Whether they want to make further investment is up to them.
Keith
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Exactly! If Bill H wouldn't have done what he did, my foray into this would have ended near the beginning. Good for you on trying to at least get people coming to this.
I will say here in the valley there are some new people showing up. Mac is bringing some from the money match stuff he runs, Tony Pic and his wife from PA are doing extremely well in this. So, things are improving, at least this winter at the Hill. I think Chris mentioned that they're going to shoot all summer there too. Think it's mostly 3 gun stuff so you might check with him about coming down sometime.
Anyway, commend you for all you're trying to do. It feels like things are getting better but it's winter so the only reference point I have is here at the indoor venue. Will see how it goes this summer when going to other ranges. I know Wayne has quite a few people participating in some form down at Kettlefoot. Lots of Tuesday evening matches, along with all the other stuff he runs. Wish it was closer to me. Not sure what Mac is going to do this summer. Know he said he'd have matches so at least there will be the three matches at Stonewall and if Mac has matches, can go to some of those. Other than that, it's Braxton over in WVA or Kettlefoot for us in VA. Blackcreek doesn't have anything and Ridge is done, so shooting outdoor IR is kind of fading away in VA. Looks like I'll just have to travel more. Want to check out some of the places in NC and possibly Wilderness down in the SW part of the state.
Hope to run into you again sometime this summer. About done with this myself, so this summer will probably be it. Hope to shoot with you again somewhere.
Take care
Kenny
Our club has an informal(kinda) bi-weekly shoot year round. 50ft indoor, summer is 50yds one week and 100 the next. Usually 25-30 shooters.
Classes are UL,precision target,precision sporter, factory sporter & pistol.
Then further broke down to scope or irons. Everyone just kinds of self-polices as to class.
8-10 benches at time shooting and targets marked for class, hardly any problems at all unless ‘eidolan’ gets a burr up his butt,lol. There’s always a lot of kidding/laughing going on.
Simply some of the best Saturday’s that I have!
Classes are UL,precision target,precision sporter, factory sporter & pistol.
Then further broke down to scope or irons. Everyone just kinds of self-polices as to class.
8-10 benches at time shooting and targets marked for class, hardly any problems at all unless ‘eidolan’ gets a burr up his butt,lol. There’s always a lot of kidding/laughing going on.
Simply some of the best Saturday’s that I have!
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Kenny,
Your post started off talking about how to attract new shooters and specifically what to do with prospective new shooters that show up to a match. Then it devolved into a sad story about not being allowed to practice during relays at a sanctioned match. I didn't attend the match where you and your buds where allowed to "mess around" during relays but I do know there were several complaints. Specifically, that it was being used as an opportunity to tune rifles with a lot of up and down and tuner twisting. If you don't understand what's wrong with that then explaining it isn't going to do any good.
If I was in your shoes (or anyone who only shoots UL at Piney Hill) and didn't like waiting through the 3-Gun match I would pursue a couple of options. First, I'd ask Chris if I could pay the fees to shoot targets knowing my scores would be DQ'ed. Of course, the same rules and behavior would be expected (i.e. jack-in-the-box tuner twisting.) Or, you could call Chris and let him know you'll be there for 10 Shot and UL and come in a few hours later.
There are also several weekends open at Piney Hill where you can organize matches for shooters to bring wherever they want to shoot. Might be a good way to put your many ideas into practice and experience what it's like to run matches.
Team Yay Me!
Bruce,
You bring up some great suggestions! Already do some of what you mention, though still have too much on my plate to organize and run matches.
And yes, I do understand what you're trying to say, so no, you don't have to explain anything.
The only thing I don't understand is what is the point of your post? Other than to point out how upset you are with me.
I posted a somewhat related example of what Keith is trying to do. Basically saying that I thought it was a great idea. You're upset with that? Am fully aware that some have different opinions about how to go about this. But why bust on me and my "buds" in this fashion? Heck, you could have done that in person many times since this happened. But you never said a word. Not to them, not to me.
The thing is, you weren't there. You are not the match director. We asked permission beforehand. I personally asked a bunch of people if they would have an issue. The only input we received was to go for it. Now, from reading this, it seems you're upset with me. Am sorry that what happened upsets you. But am truly sorry if anything that happened that day caused someone to want to complain to you. Can't figure out why they just didn't speak up at the time. Everyone there seemed fine with letting three people sit and shoot a couple of shots on a practice target while one of the matches was being shot. And no, there was no up and down, no jack in the box tuner twisting. So, if nobody said they had an issue with it when we asked, did anyone actually have an issue? Or is it just you that has an issue with it? If so, just say so. But again, if you were there and voiced an objection, it wouldn't have happened. We can go round and round, but in the end, it was an example of how match directors, and the shooters who are in this already, could possibly help get more people to matches and get them shooting. Or is all of the chatter just that? Maybe it's more of a "I want it this way because it benefits me" than a "I want it this way because it helps the sport grow".
You suggest that a person could pay to shoot a gun that doesn't qualify for a particular weight class but the score would not count. I think that's what Keith was doing and that I was agreeing with. Although we did not pay, nor did we shoot a sanctioned target the day that the world evidently stopped turning at Piney Hill.
Reading your reply, it seems that you're more interested in being upset with me personally than saying yay or nay towards what is being discussed. Seems more a personality issue than an issue with how to possibly change things a little to get people more inclined to come to matches. But maybe I'm just not reading it right. Either way, it doesn't matter what either of us think.
To be clear, I have no issues with 3 gun, nor those who shoot it. Wish them the best of luck. Don't want to see it go away. And it looks like Chris is trying to really bring it to the front here locally. Great for him.
But do worry that it's hard to get people into this sport. So thought it was neat that Keith was trying different things. It seems you're not a fan. So be it, not everyone shares the same viewpoint.
Kenny
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
I got involved in
NRA Smallbore Silhouette this winter and they have a program that accommodates beginners part and parcel to the whole organization. First of all, it's relatively difficult to do so the have a range of classes beginning with Unclassified to B then to A then AA and AAA then master, all point driven. Seems to work fine. Rifles must be within certain boundries, like 9 pounds, clip fed, 2 lb , YES 2 pound trigger pull, any sights. In other words, a real squirrel rifle.
The rifles aside, the class system is what I think makes it all successful. Shooting the Sunshine Classic this weekend and the ranks are loaded with young people as well as older folks too. A grand gets one a first class rifle and scope used. Lots of CZ's and lots of Anschutz's as well as one 10-22. Most of the kids are shooting off the shelf CZ's, from what I saw. A teen age girl won the whole thing today but winning was spread out over a lot of ground, even touched this old codger.
It just ain't right to expect folks to start in the Master Class and is a problem in all Benchrest Orrgs, IMHO. I've always thought it and said so every year or so.
Pete
NRA Smallbore Silhouette this winter and they have a program that accommodates beginners part and parcel to the whole organization. First of all, it's relatively difficult to do so the have a range of classes beginning with Unclassified to B then to A then AA and AAA then master, all point driven. Seems to work fine. Rifles must be within certain boundries, like 9 pounds, clip fed, 2 lb , YES 2 pound trigger pull, any sights. In other words, a real squirrel rifle.
The rifles aside, the class system is what I think makes it all successful. Shooting the Sunshine Classic this weekend and the ranks are loaded with young people as well as older folks too. A grand gets one a first class rifle and scope used. Lots of CZ's and lots of Anschutz's as well as one 10-22. Most of the kids are shooting off the shelf CZ's, from what I saw. A teen age girl won the whole thing today but winning was spread out over a lot of ground, even touched this old codger.
It just ain't right to expect folks to start in the Master Class and is a problem in all Benchrest Orrgs, IMHO. I've always thought it and said so every year or so.
Pete