Getting back to weighing powder

W

Wilbur

cook and bottle washer
As I recall, I made the statement that nobody could tell the difference in the accuracy of a rifle from weighed charges vs charges that varied .2 grains. I offered to jump a plane and go see, if anyone claimed they could pick out the shots that had the .2 variance. Larry Costa took me up on it but I think he understood the deal to be load weight rather than the age old question of whether to drop or weigh. He added a bunch of criteria that wouldn't affect the test so long as the shots were "blind".

OK, the season is dwindling such that Larry might not become distracted and I'm still in. The question to Larry is:

Do you still believe you can pick out the shot that varies 2 tenths grain from the others? Alternatively, pick out the group within an 5 target agg that has variance - all others being weighed?

It would be simpler to pick out the shots but I'm willing to go either way. Restating, the purpose of the test is to determine if the variances in powder weight as a result of using a powder drop are discernible on the target.

Larry - are you still in on this? I can fly close on the cheap from Chattanooga.....
 
Mr, Stool. No, you don't get it.

Here's the thread, all 95 posts...See, for example, post 85 -- but you'll have to read more to get the full picture.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...fference-when-charges-vary-a-tenth-of-a-grain

Edit: Here's the challenge:

I'll save up some money and go anywhere Southwest flies. We'll fix up some 6PPC cases so they all look alike and then load up some weighed charges and some deliberately 2 tenths spread. I'll pass 'em out so you won't know which it is. After shooting 15 groups with the .2 spread and 5 groups with the exact weight - you pick which ones that had the exact weight. If, for some reason, you can't pick the weighed groups we'll do it again with 3 tenths variance.
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Wilbur, IMO the charge weight can be off probably more than your 0.2 grains IF the load window of that setup allows. I have had barrel/bullet situations where probably as much as +/- 1 grain would allow all bullets to "go through the same hole". (I use the Brady Knight definition to define "same hole")
 
stool said:
what are you going to use for powder and what thrower will give you that .2 tolerance >>.

seems i remember some guys weighing and throwing saying n133 is thrown at .3......
am i missing your challenge ??
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I'm fairly sure that folks can throw 133 closer than three tenths. It's all in the technique. Boyd Allen can elaborate as he has it to a science.
 
Yeahhh but they just went up to a dollar nineteen this week, and it's now the "dollar menu and more" LOL!
 
Wilber, I shoot 1000 yd. bench rest and i don't think you would want to bet the farm on a .2 powder charge variance. .1 isn't hard to see but at short range it is only .1 as far….. jim
 
jim1K said:
Wilber, I shoot 1000 yd. bench rest and i don't think you would want to bet the farm on a .2 powder charge variance. .1 isn't hard to see but at short range it is only .1 as far….. jim
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I'm fairly sure you're right about the longer ranges. Anybody ever done a blind test to see if a variance can be confirmed as detrimental?
 
Wilber, I was blind when i first started…….. I used a Harrell's powder measure and a digital scale shot big 7-9" groups. went to a tuned balance beam scale to check the Harrell measure and the groups got smaller. Last was a Sartorius GD 503 and the groups are down to the 2" range, i hold a .01 with it. I still use the Harrell's measure…….jim
 
Wilbur If you have a rifle that will shoot them dam near in the same hole at 100-200 is there going to be more than one person handing you the random amo and one guy doing the shooting. Will all groups be measured, cause my eyes aren't that good anymore. But I'm with Jim1k on the 1000 yard stuff there is a difference.

Joe Salt
 
Wilber, I did shoot short range at one time. and i have three 1000 yd. light guns that will shoot in the zero's at 100yds. The Dasher is super accurate have barrels that shoot in the mid zeros. and i do all my testing under wind flags. I now trim and point Spencer and BIB bullets and i anneal every time. I think i have the Dasher figured out up close and long. I now hold seating depth to .0005, so try to believe you can see .1 variation @ 1000. I try to leave nothing to chance, i am the weak link in this equation ………. jim
 
Joe Salt said:
Wilbur If you have a rifle that will shoot them dam near in the same hole at 100-200 is there going to be more than one person handing you the random amo and one guy doing the shooting. Will all groups be measured, cause my eyes aren't that good anymore. But I'm with Jim1k on the 1000 yard stuff there is a difference.

Joe Salt
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Had to re-read this to realize there was a question. Doesn't really matter how it goes down as long as I know which ammo it is and the guy doing the shooting/guessing doesn't. A third party would only be needed if I can't be trusted to tell the truth. The shooter/guesser has to decide which ammo is different.
 
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I don't know about you, But????

If and when I get serious about benchrest again, I hope to God that I don't have to hold my seating depth to .0005 and my powder to .1 grain, I'll go nuts. My next build might be a dasher if they are capable of consistent 0 groups
 
Well I, for one, have actually shot a 1K rifle in point-blank matches, in the unlimited class. Head to head competition. One of those times anyway, Wilbur was there -- the Charlotte 300 yard Southeastern Regional. Forget the year. Didn't far so well with the 1K rifle in unlimited. In the match that followed, (short-range HG with 13.5 pound weight limit), I won -- with a 6PPC. So I wasn't just having a bad day. I will allow I was re-learning the range a bit in Unlimited, which is shot first...

Yeah, I've got a bunch groups in the 1s, even a few in the zeros at 100 yards with 1K rifles. But in a full match, 5 targets, every shot counts, they're no better than the Point-Blank rifles, and they are harder to handle, which increases your chance of making a mistake you don't get away with.

Back to who's got the best barrel, that's who wins.

Do the test. Let's see how much variation in powder matters at 100, for a rifle in the middle of a good tune.
 
WHY NOT A 1 HOLE GROUP AT 100 Yards?

Maybe I'm confused here but when I was shooting 100 yard BR seriously, 18-20 years ago, you might as well go home if you couldn't shoot a "bug hole" on a calm day and that was with a sleeved XP100 action (on my LV) and field reloading N133 & H322 with a Harrell measure. I agree with Charles, today, in short range BR the best barrel wins. I guess thats why both my HV & LV guns have shortened and rechambered BBls while I have a cardboard box with some nice looking 400-500 shot bbls under my loading bench.

I just got back on this board after many years out of BR shooting but, with the beautiful wheather here in GA, I got my old BR guns out and had some fun the last 2 weekends. I even took the day off to shoot yesterday.

Questions:
1. How can I find out more on "Boyd Allen's" powder measure technique?
2. How can Charles bring pre-loaded PPC's for others to shoot? Do you not just neck size any more? I don't even use the same brass in both my guns. Do y'all not use tight necks anymore? I have a .262 & a .263.
3. Do y'all weigh charges in short range BR today?
 
I'm no expert on the subject but we've never weighed charges beyond the first time. Basically we'd look at Culver's cross-reference table, dial the measure, weigh a copy of charges to confirm, denote the setting per weight, then proceed. In fact since we built our first 6 BR back in '89 we've never re-weighed a charge of 322. I know my dial window for the one-grain increment we shoot and that's it. And I'm confident I wouldn't be able to discern 0.1 grains on paper.

I should add though we never shoot farther than 200.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
 
I keep reading what happened in the past,if it worked then it should work now? If so we would still be loading them from the front. I agree Agg's are the determining factor on consistency. Is a 2.8" agg. for four targets and a score of 50 chopped liver at 1000 yds. This same gun shot 6 groups at 100 yds. in the zero's and set four light gun records. This stuff works, and the powder is weighed too the .01 not .1……… jim
 
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