General FFL question

J

Jkob

Guest
Just last week I shipped a rifle to a client through his local FFL holder. The guy calls me up and tells me he won't transfer the firearm to the owner (all Paid up) because I did not put a copy of my license in the package. I realiize it is a courtesy thing but I do not want a copy of my license floating all over the country. I tried to make this guy understand that I do not have a requirement to include my copy. I even asked him about receiving a copy from a wholesaler when he buys a gun from them, he tells me he always gets one. I think he was lying and is just paranoid. The receiving dealer was located in Illinois. Is there a special requirement for him like some of the Kaliofornicate dealers. WHen he told me he was going to ship it back I really went balistic. What say you?

Jim
 
Jim, this is becoming more common with firearms transactions. I ran into the same thing with the last two I did (one as a buyer and one as a seller). Both times, a quick email of the lic. is all it took. You could even send him a pic. of the lic. from your phone.

It's just a case of the recieving FFL wanting to cover all the bases. I know I would if I were in their shoes......

Stay warm. -Al
 
When the receiving FFL insists on a hard copy I put For: and his name and address on the
front of the FFL I send.
 
ID For Transfer

No matter which state he's in, the FFL holder who receives the firearm must enter the name and address of the person who shipped the gun to him in his record book. He can take you at your word that your identity is correct if there's no DL copy, but to ensure that you are who you say you are in case there's ever a question by the ATF folks, he may require a copy of your DL. I've had my DL Xeroxed and enlarged and written: "DL provided for for purposes of firearm transfer only" on it--similar to what FFL holders write on their FFL copy: "File copy only."
 
Similar over here. FFL wants an FFL copy with the incoming transfer. It is his business, his neck on the line and his income. While not required by BATF I want him to stay in business so do what he asks.

On the other hand if you don't want a copy of your license floating around in someone else's books check before you ship to avoid the problem you have encountered. It is your business so you can make your own rules too. If you won't bend yours why would you expect the other guy to bend his? bob
 
I have an FFL and this is a requirement of mine as well. I always enter in all of the information and if I receive a gun from a business they always include their FFL. I want this to make sure I am covered. If you don't want to send the license thru the mail I have people fax them to me.
 
DDraw said:
I have an FFL and this is a requirement of mine as well. I always enter in all of the information and if I receive a gun from a business they always include their FFL. I want this to make sure I am covered. If you don't want to send the license thru the mail I have people fax them to me.
Click to expand...

'You order a gun from Jerry's Sports Center in Spring Hill Kansas, do you get a copy of their license? No, never have and I have been buying from them for over 15 years. I still think it paranoia. A private individual can ship to an FFL who has his copy and don't need any ID except for a return address. Maybe I am a bit paranoid here too but how do I know if the copy of a DL from the sender is even his?
 
Jkob said:
'You order a gun from Jerry's Sports Center in Spring Hill Kansas, do you get a copy of their license? No, never have and I have been buying from them for over 15 years. I still think it paranoia. A private individual can ship to an FFL who has his copy and don't need any ID except for a return address. Maybe I am a bit paranoid here too but how do I know if the copy of a DL from the sender is even his?
Click to expand...

OK, he's paranoid, you're paranoid. Really, the only reason many receiving dealers ask for a copy of the sender's FFL is to enter the number in their bound book. When I was in business, I never had any dealer refuse to provide a copy of their FFL. I also dealt with Jerry's and I never asked for one from them. They are a large, well known distributor and they require customers to establish an account with them just to do business. I don't see the situation as a good comparison.

The guy you shipped the rifle to must have sent, emailed, or faxed a copy of his FFL to you, or you wouldn't have been able to ship the rifle. Why not return the courtesy?
 
george in KY said:
in truth he just needs your license number and a click of the mouse https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/
Click to expand...

Of course you're right.

I was only making the point that an FFL dealer asking for a copy of a sender's FFL is not unusual or all that unreasonable. A dealer is required to obtain a copy of an FFL to send a firearm, not to receive one. An unlicensed individual is not even required to do that. I would be somewhat more concerned about sending a copy to an unlicensed individual than an FFL holder. On the other hand, if an unlicensed individual ships a firearm out of state, he is required to ship it to an FFL. Few unlicensed individuals are aware of the FFL EZ check website.

The long and short of it is that the FFA is not all that complicated, but the ATF takes poetic license with regulations and many dealers operate under misconceptions of what the law requires. Asking the ATF for an opinion is no guarantee that you will get the truth.

As far as whether Illinois has such a requirement, I really couldn't say. My state regulations book is several years out of date.
 
SGS said:
Of course you're right.

I was only making the point that an FFL dealer asking for a copy of a sender's FFL is not unusual or all that unreasonable. A dealer is required to obtain a copy of an FFL to send a firearm, not to receive one. An unlicensed individual is not even required to do that. I would be somewhat more concerned about sending a copy to an unlicensed individual than an FFL holder. On the other hand, if an unlicensed individual ships a firearm out of state, he is required to ship it to an FFL. Few unlicensed individuals are aware of the FFL EZ check website.

The long and short of it is that the FFA is not all that complicated, but the ATF takes poetic license with regulations and many dealers operate under misconceptions of what the law requires. Asking the ATF for an opinion is no guarantee that you will get the truth.

As far as whether Illinois has such a requirement, I really couldn't say. My state regulations book is several years out of date.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to belabor this discussion but It appears there is a bit of confusion on the law all over the place.

First, a dealer is not required to obtain a "copy" of a license, only has to know he is shipping out of state to one. This could be an EZ Check like mentioned before.

Secondly, an unlicensed individual cannot send interstate to an unlicensed individual.

Third, an individual may ship "...for repair or modification..." without the use of an FFL. However, I think any repair or mod faciity is required to have an FFL

COrrect me if I am wrong on this, please.

Jim
 
Jkob said:
I don't mean to belabor this discussion but It appears there is a bit of confusion on the law all over the place.

First, a dealer is not required to obtain a "copy" of a license, only has to know he is shipping out of state to one. This could be an EZ Check like mentioned before.

Secondly, an unlicensed individual cannot send interstate to an unlicensed individual.

Third, an individual may ship "...for repair or modification..." without the use of an FFL. However, I think any repair or mod faciity is required to have an FFL

COrrect me if I am wrong on this, please.

Jim
Click to expand...

Directly from the ATF website:

§ 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer selling or
otherwise disposing of firearms, and a
licensed collector selling or otherwise
disposing of curios or relics, to another
licensee shall verify the identity and
licensed status of the transferee prior
to making the transaction.
Verification shall be established by the
transferee furnishing to the transferor
a certified copy of the transferee’s license
and by such other means as the
transferor deems necessary: Provided,
That it shall not be required (a) for a
transferee who has furnished a certified
copy of its license to a transferor to
again furnish such certified copy to
that transferor during the term of the
transferee’s current license, (b) for a licensee
to furnish a certified copy of its
license to another licensee if a firearm
is being returned either directly or
through another licensee to such licensee
and (c) for licensees of multilicensed
business organizations to furnish
certified copies of their licenses to
other licensed locations operated by
such organization: Provided further,
That a multilicensed business organization
may furnish to a transferor, in
lieu of a certified copy of each license,
a list, certified to be true, correct and
complete, containing the name, address,
license number, and the date of
license expiration of each licensed location
operated by such organization,
and the transferor may sell or otherwise
dispose of firearms as provided by
this section to any licensee appearing
on such list without requiring a certified
copy of a license therefrom. A
transferor licensee who has the certified
information required by this section
may sell or dispose of firearms to
a licensee for not more than 45 days
following the expiration date of the
transferee’s license.
(Approved by the Office of Management and
Budget under control number 1140–0032)
[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10496, Mar. 31, 1988, as
amended by ATF–11F, 73 FR 57241, Oct. 2,
2008]
 
Tangled web of laws and regulations

Kobe,

The basic law has not changed since I was in business. The ATF has, over the years, relaxed the acceptable definition of "Certified Copy of License" from originally requiring a hard copy with original signature, to accepting a fax copy of same, to accepting an email copy. The only exceptions allowed in the law are if the receiving FFL has a copy on file that is still valid or to return a firearm to the dealer or individual it was received from.

A little more digging on the ATF website turned up the September 2013 FFL newsletter that the ATF sends out to licensees which re affirms the requirement to obtain a signed copy and strongly recommends using the FFL EZ Check website to confirm the validity and just as important the address shown on the license.
 
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Paranoia? Hmmmm....I wonder why they strongly suggest we use the EZ Check??? Big brother watching??
 
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