I have a rem700 VSSF in .308 that I have only neck sized my cases for. I recently learned that maybe I should be FL sizing and bumping the necks back about .002. I have an RCBS headspace and COTL guage which I only bought to vary the COTL. At any rate, I measured about 10 used cases and they measure -.001 on the scale (yes, .001 less than zero). After I did a FL sizing in which I ran my Redding FL die all the way down to the shell holder, I measured +.001 on the headspace guage which indicates that the case actually grew upon re-sizing ( I verified this with several cases). How can this be?
Full Length Sizing Question
- Thread starter yountg
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
Trying to follow you as best I can here but I think what you're seeing is fairly common. The brass has nowhere to go while being squeezed down radially and gets longer UNTIL the die comes in contact with the shoulder and pushes it all back where ya want it. It's not uncommon and is typically not a gun nor die problem as everything is probably within spec but there are often slight overlaps of specs or tolerances. The most common solution is to remove material from the top of the shell holder by sanding it down on a flat surface. You might be able to gain a tad bit by running the die down a bit further as most presses etc have enough slack to get a little more sizing by camming it over, sometimes pretty hard. Go maybe an 1/8th of a turn further than just touching the top of the shell holder and see if it gains anything. It might gain more than expected so just do a couple and see what ya get. Then, ya might take some from the shell holder if ya want. I prefer a little cam over to remove all slack but it shouldn't be hard to pull it over. Oh yeah...ditch the gauge and check it by feel in the gun. Empty, sized case of course.
Jerry W
Jerry Wick
Also, use a stripped(disassembled) bolt so there's no resistance from the firing pin spring.
DHuffman
Member
Whatever your fired case is keep adjusting the die down until you get the desired shoulder set back.
As others said when the die is close but still long it will lengthen the shoulder, keep adjusting the die down.
I'll go up to .003" bump even on bench guns, I want absolutely no drag closing the bolt to keep from affecting the way the gun is sitting in the bags
As others said when the die is close but still long it will lengthen the shoulder, keep adjusting the die down.
I'll go up to .003" bump even on bench guns, I want absolutely no drag closing the bolt to keep from affecting the way the gun is sitting in the bags
I just bought a .222 Rem with a tight neck (.244) and I am new to neck turning. So what brought all this about is that I am practicing neck turning on my .308 and trying to be a little better at my case prep. To date I have just shot factory rifles and have just worked on basic improvements (bullet weight, type, powder, powder type, etc.).
I bought a Century 21 neck turning tool. It seems to me that if you are going to turn necks, the time to do it is on new brass as it seems that you do not have to work the necks so many times....would this be correct? Also, my new .222 has ".244 NK" stamped on the barrel....I am assuming that this is the exact dimension of the chamber and not the neck diameter of a loaded cartridge.
I have seen that Redding has shell holders with different heights from the case head to the top of the shell holder....should I be looking at these?
mwezell
Mike Ezell
They only REDUCE bump. They won't give more bump. The one marked zero, is the same as a standard shell holder and they get thicker from there. So no.
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I guess that is why I read of people shaving down there shell holders and the bottom of there dies. I really don't want to do that.
Yes, I realize that I need to do it for the tight neck chamber before using....I meant for my .308 in the future. The .308 shoots very well....is it worth neck turning for it? Also, is the tight neck worth it....I have read that it has gone out of style.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
It's not a big deal at all. Most people remove a little from the shell holder but I prefer to take it from the die, myself and not have a dedicated shell holder. Plus, I could then use the redding shell holder set if I chose to. Just take .010 off the die and you're set for the holders to do what people want them to do. The dies are hardened though, so it takes carbide to cut it. Other than that, easy peasy job and no down side to it if done right.
As for tight necks...I use to believe in neck turning and again, if done right, it can't hurt but I've been going to no-turn chambers for a few years now and winning even at a high level in short range BR.
If you think it matters, then it does but I'm not seeing it on target and with match results.
DHuffman
Member
I'd rather take it off the die as well, I've done several by hand running the bottom of the die in figure 8s on a piece of fine metal sandpaper on a hard known flat surface. It's faster than driving to the shop where my lathe is and doing it that way.
I'm going to try a no turn neck next time one of my bench guns needs a barrel.
I'm going to try a no turn neck next time one of my bench guns needs a barrel.
Thanks! I guess that I have two questions going on at once. I am going to try the tight neck for a while as I have the tools....if I don't like it, I will take the rifle to a gunsmith and have the neck returned to SAAMI. But on factory guns, I still wonder if neck turning is worth it...my understanding is that it aligns outer and inner neck diameters that were not manufactured concentric.
I am going to relax and try the cases that I have FL sized even though they are longer in headspace than my fired cases. After 3 neck sizings on those cases, some are hard to chamber. However, I am thinking that it is not the headspace, but the diameter of the case body. I guess that I will find out after this FL sizing. I did not know any better at one time....I was told that NK sizing was the way to go and that they could never grow past the same rifle's chamber. I have a .222 that was hard to chamber after just a few NK sizings. Any word on annealing....the internet is all over the place on whether it is good or bad and how to do it.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
The bbl swells a tiny bit every time ya fire the gun and the brass tries to go back to that expanded state. That's how they can get tight after they lose a bit of elasticity to spring back. I find it rare to feel radial expansion upon close but it can be very apparent upon opening. If only neck sizing, it gets longer too and you're more likely to feel that than radially. I guess it can happen with a sensitive feel but a tapered case etc...Possible yes but more likely imo that what you're feeling is length related. You are likely to hear different opinions but the math leans toward length.
DHuffman
Member
Some never anneal, some every time. Personally I'll go 5 to 7 firings usually then anneal, trim etc
Thanks!
I never have done it. I have found that after about 7-8 neck sizings, I will start to get cracked necks and shoulders. After all the work in neck sizing that I am doing now, I would like for the cases to last longer. Also, if it improves accuracy, that would be great (and really the main goal).
DHuffman
Member
I just use a cheap Annealeze machine set up to give a faint orange glow to the necks in a mostly dark room (barely enough light to see what you're doing) and don't stress about hitting some magic temperature or line below the shoulder.
I may not technically be getting a "full anneal" but I'm getting them all to the same state and that's the important thing in my opinion.
I've never split a neck over several thousand pieces of brass, not one.
I think any cheap machine that turns the case consistently will do the job or throw down a couple $thou geeking out on an AMP set up.
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What is a no-turn chamber?