fronal ignition

B

ballpowder

Member
Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I thought I would try a 22 br this coming year for the nw nbrsa season. This is going to be my first year. Anyhow the full length 22br looks like it may not have been the best choice. Before I "get real" and switch to the ppc I wanted to experiment with frontal ignition tubes. I have 1/8" O.D. copper tubing w/ .030 wall thickness. I think that I will try 6-32 threads. Any of this sound correct so far? My last question is about how far from shoulder/neck junction should the tubing stop? Thanks in advance.
Tim J.
 
Tim

My question would be "why"??

Back in the 40's and 50's, Elmer Keith and Townsend Wheland fooled around with this concept, mainly to improve ballistics with the limited available powders of that era. I can remember reading articles about it in the 60's.

With the number of powders that are available now, I think you would find that you have a solution to a problem that does not exist. Lots of work for no gain in performance..............jackie
 
On a case that short, I think that I would probably try to light the powder column in about the middle. I bet that you would see more of a difference on a longer case though.
 
Would it be all that great to cool the primer flame by having it disperse heat into the ignition tube as it passed thru?

Oh, yeah, I'd love to see a sketch of your depriming tool too.
 
Tim

Jackie mentioned the 40s, 50s, and 60s. It's still going on today. Some people never seem to learn from history.

John mentioned just two of the many disadvantages. They are real ones. The so-called advantages are mostly theories and wishes.

JMHO

Ray
 
ballpowder said:
Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I thought I would try a 22 br this coming year for the nw nbrsa season. This is going to be my first year. Anyhow the full length 22br looks like it may not have been the best choice. Before I "get real" and switch to the ppc I wanted to experiment with frontal ignition tubes. I have 1/8" O.D. copper tubing w/ .030 wall thickness. I think that I will try 6-32 threads. Any of this sound correct so far? My last question is about how far from shoulder/neck junction should the tubing stop? Thanks in advance.
Tim J.
Click to expand...

Ballpowder.....

from one rabid experimenter to another... BTDT, GTTS ...... Unless I was campaigning a 50BMG I wouldn't even consider it and even then I'm convinced there's no gain.

And regarding gains, WHAT gains??? Right now I shoot 5 different chamberings and EXPECT ES in the single digits..... shooting over 3000fps and showing chronographed and observed results of under 10fps.

You can't beat that. It's better than metered compressed air.

You wanna make your 22BR shoot? Experiment with your brass forming procedure. I can describe how you can get that thing down into the low two's solid like a rock.

:)

al
 
Tim
If this shows up it is a frontal ignition picture set-up correctly for what you want to do.The large case volume you were concerned about will be partially offset by the volume of the flashtube.
Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
Tim
If this shows up it is a frontal ignition picture set-up correctly for what you want to do.The large case volume you were concerned about will be partially offset by the volume of the flashtube.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

OOohhh nicely done Lynn, you're turning into a real computer geek :D

Beauty illustration

Good On Ya

:)

al
 
Alinwa
I bet Ray has that very same cartridge in his collection both with and without the flashtube.
Waterboy
 
Lynn

That's an M48A1 isn't it? I don't have one sectioned but I do have one loaded and an M48 also. I heard that Skip Talbot tried that case without the flash tube. I never asked him if that was true or not, or how it worked. That big flash hole certainly would have let all the fire through.

Tim

So I don't rain on your parade, flash tubes do work with the BIG cases such as the one shown here and others like the Fat Mac and the BIG military rounds and artillery.

ray
 
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Thanks for the replies guys. I know that if it was the greatest concept it would be widely used, but I enjoy the reloading bench as much as the the shooting bench so I may just have to learn the hard way. Plus my gunsmith Billy Stevens said my barrel is to short for a set back and it is far from burned out. I'll test different lengths till decapping drives me bonkers.
Tim J.
 
Tim
I think you'll find halfway produces the best results as John Kielly has pointed out.

Ray
You got it right.The round came with and without the flashtubes and is quite easy to see once the primer is removed.The flashtube rounds have a very big flashhole that the tube slides into and the primer keeps it from sliding back out.The tube itself has several lips that stop it from falling into the powder charge.I think I gave both types to you at a match several years ago but may not have.I believe Thunderbird Cartridge Company in your home state sells them either way? A loaded round would be impossible to tell which is which.Skip did build his 338 Talbot off of such a case.It holds about 100 grains less water than a standard 50 bmg case or right at 200 grains.I don't know if he used the flashtubes or not but they would have helped to reduce the cases volume.
I have a 4 inch case that is just shy of 35 inches long that I use as my cleaning rod caddy at home.It has a flashtube in it just over 14 inches long.
I have heard rumors that Lee Rasmussen who owns just about every 50 bmg record played with the frontal ignition and even used Tyvek house wrapping plastic to get compressed loads but don't tell that to Alinwa.:cool:
Waterboy
 
Tim

If you are determined to try flash tubes and frontal ignition, get a copy of Cartridges Of The World (COTW) 10th Edition. There is an article about how one shooter went about it.

I have several cartridges in my collection that show the different methods tried over the years. Here's a photo of the most common. It's a 30-06 case from the 1930s.

The flash tubes in the really big cases and in artillery are there for one purpose - to ignite the powder. They are not intended for any particular ballistic improvement. It's not easy to light anywhere from 1/2 ounce to several pounds of powder with a primer at the back end.

Lynn

I wish that Skip had written down all of the things he tried. It would have saved guys from going thru all the trouble of trying to re-invent the wheel.

Ray
Photo1.jpg
 
There is information on flash tubes here:






Gibbs Cartridges on CD ROM
Wolfe Publishing Company
This is a Book reproduced in a high resolution PDF format on CD-ROM. The Gibbs line of wildcat cartridges has aroused curiosity since the mid-1960s. Handloaders expound and argue the velocity claims and cartridge designs of Rocky Gibbs. Other than this book, only tidbits of information are available. Gibbs had developed his interest in handloading while a member of the Richmond, California, Rod and Gun Club. His competitive nature led to an intense desire to produce a cartridge that was bigger, better, faster and more complete than any other. He was severely criticized for his cartridge case design. Nearly everyone complained about the minimum length of the case necks. Gibbs was also accused of inflating the Gibbs cartridge velocities. He never gave in or broke down in the face of these ongoing controversies. He was willing to risk his reputation to prove he had maximized the available space in a .30-06 case. Whether he accomplished his goal of producing the finest cartridge available is up to each handloader to decide. When it comes to velocity, "a Gibbs chambered rifle with a standard barrel makes a magnum with a short barrel just another rifle."


http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/detail.cfm?productid=820


Brass -steel heavy wall small size tubing :
http://specialshapes.com/default.asp


Glenn :D
 
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Stonewall

That '06 case I showed came from a box of 25 new WRA cases that had been modified by installation of flash tubes. The work was supposedly done by Luft Bros. in Spokane for Rocky Gibbs. I have nothing to prove this but it does make a good story.:cool:

Ray
 
wow!

Geez, guys I am a little surprised by the effort and help. Shouldn't be though as I have read numerous threads where you guys pulled together to offer up advice. I hope I can contribute back. Alinwa, I'm sure I can benefit from your experience. When you are up to it shoot me a PM.
Thanks, Tim J.
 
I knew a man here in Louisville, that did research for the government beck in the 60's and 70's experiment with ignition tubes. Actually they were brothers (Dave Walker being the principal partner) and enjoyed the shooting sports as much as anyone that you and I know, and the government was footing the bill :) ...
To the best of my recollection, there wasn't enough of an advantage if any at all to proceed to the production phase.
Mark
 
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