? for you tunnel shooters

goodgrouper

goodgrouper

tryingtobeabettergrouper
How often can you find a load in the tunnel one day and have it work just as well another day? I'm having a hard time getting a load to shoot good twice in one day and now I can't blame it on the wind or temp changes!:eek::confused:
 
Tunnels are weird weird animals. Most get out once the novelty runs out. Call gene beggs and ask him whats going on he is the longest lasting tunnel rat i know of and ill bet he knows
 
Yep, Gene Beggs!

Perhaps he will comment here....Gene has a really nice tunnel setup and knows quite a bit otherwise. I actually flew to Texas to visit with Gene and his tunnel some years ago. Had a great time and was truly impressed with everything I saw...including Gene. :)
 
I was washing the dishes and realized referencing Gene might not have been the best I could do here.

A tunnel is involved but that's the only thing different. The same thing can happen outside a tunnel and the question is tough at best. Keith Gantt and I used to go to the Chattanooga Rifle Club to get ready for a match. We always shot poorly (.3xx or worse), but when we went to the match we did pretty good. I really don't know why we shot there but we did. What I'm saying here is that where you shoot has a bearing on how you shoot and sometimes you can't fix it.
 
Wilbur said:
Yep, Gene Beggs!

Perhaps he will comment here....Gene has a really nice tunnel setup and knows quite a bit otherwise. I actually flew to Texas to visit with Gene and his tunnel some years ago. Had a great time and was truly impressed with everything I saw...including Gene. :)
Click to expand...


Wilbur, thanks for the kind words. I sure enjoyed your visit to the West Texas tunnel. We had a great time; didn't we?

Folks, Wilbur loves Starbuck's coffee and good steaks. My kinda' guy! :D

Gene Beggs
 
What size tunnel? We have two 16'x16'x100yards, one 16'x16'x300yards, and one 7'x7'x50yards. Could you be getting shock wave bouncing off the walls?
 
Thanks for the replies thus far guys.

The tunnel is 6' roundx100 yards. It is well ventilated and has a very slight draw draft. No mirage, steady afternoon temps. First thing I did was check for shockwave influence and I would have to say there is zero. I have shot several groups in it that were so tight that I could take the target, lay it flat, insert a bullet into the hole, and the paper would hold the weight of the bullet. I don't think I could shoot that small if the tunnel had problems. I think what I'm discovering is something I've feared for the last 4 years........the gun is not consistent day to day with any load. I have taken several 6.5x284 wildcats, one 6.5x47, and one 338 Edge into the tunnel on separate occasions and had them shoot the same load great every time, and velocities were within 3 fps each time. I put my 6ppc in there and suddenly the place gets overrun with voodoo mysticism.

I used to win a fair amount of wood with my old "snake" gun, and the world made sense. Newtons Laws balanced out with Murphy's Laws and things were predictable. Now that I've got this "bear" gun, it feels like I've taken a nose dive down the rabbit hole and the Cheshire Cat is loading my ammo........
 
is it

a glue in .coz when the glue is bad they do that weird stuff
 
I'm thinkin'

goodgrouper said:
How often can you find a load in the tunnel one day and have it work just as well another day? I'm having a hard time getting a load to shoot good twice in one day and now I can't blame it on the wind or temp changes!:eek::confused:
Click to expand...


This is a deep subject and I'm trying to decide how best to respond. :)

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
The obvious problem is

Zdog said:
Yes, YEs, YES! Thank you Lou. I started a thread earlier in wk titled "Second Match Curse?" Unfortunately it went away during (or before?) the recent rehab on the Forum. At last weekends IBS VT State Score Match I did OK at 100 yd and was still clean after match 1 at 200. A fellow competitor complimented me to which I answered, I still had to get past the 2nd and 3rd match "curse." If I drop points it is almost always on one of those two. And of course on match 2 (which was just miserable!) I lost one. But then on the next match I posted a 50-4X! So the question is . . . WHY?! (sorry for shouting . . .) What's so different about match 2 and sometimes 3? Targets 4 and 5 typically go well. Last week's equipment: BAT 6 PPC, Krieger 1:13 1/2" twist bbl with 800 rnds, new Weaver 36X XR scope, Lap 220 Russ Brass, IMR 8208 powder, Bart's 68 gr Ultras, Wolf SRM primers, Farley Co-ax II front rest, Protektor rear bag. Observations, ideas, comments are welcome.

Zdog (that's Zee-dog! Chris Mitchell)
Click to expand...

The 6PPC. Solution - - - - - - Drum Roll Please - - - - - - -- 30 BR :) Sorry, I couldn't resist Chris.

Pete, in California.
 
Lou says his guns won't shoot from 11-1, then his posts disappear. It like something out of the X-Files.:eek:
 
I think you've concluded the correct answer...it's not a winning rifle. Sure, you could keep trying stuff like different powders, fat bullets, etc... but you would be ahead if you just gave up on it.


Just an opinion as you're smarter about this stuff than I am...

By the way - have you tried fat bullets? :)
 
Good grouper

Have you screwed on another barrel to see if it exhibits the same lack of repeatability?

Not shooting in a tunnel but I went through 4 barrels last year before I got to one that would repeat a small group. Or in other words give a good solid aggregate for an entire day.

I'm still waiting to hear Gene.'s response to this question. My first knee jerk is the tunnel would help you qualify barrels much faster than outside. Then one would have to see if it would shoot in the wind
Without knowing more about your procedure I'm just guessing.
 
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Okay guys, here goes! TUNNELS!

I don't know where to begin. :eek: Excuse me for a moment while I go get another cup of strong, black coffee. :cool:

Will the best tunnel ever built enable one to shoot one zero after another, all day long? NO!

Is a tunnel really an asset to a benchrester for testing rifles, shooters and components? YES!

Are there any mysteries about tunnel operation that experienced tunnel rats have known about for years but thus far have been unable to explain? YES, but now I believe I know what they are; RING VORTICES and SLOW MIRAGE! :eek:


Ring vortices? Yep, you've seen them many times, usually when a smoker blows a smoke ring.

A well built tunnel with complete control of the airflow eliminates dispersion caused by wind but also confines anything that is blasted down the tube when the rifle is fired; i.e., hot gases, wake turbulence created by the supersonic projectile and most importantly, ring vortices created by muzzle blast. :eek:

The tunnel blocks wind but also confines vortices that continue rotating for quite some time directly in the path of following shots. You cannot see them and they do not show up in the fixed reference scope. Same thing happens outdoors in dead calm conditions. And of course, with every shot fired, especially in rapid succession, the more likely following shots will encounter turbulence. So how do you deal with this monster? :eek:

Well, outdoors, if you have time, you can wait for a slight crosswind to drift them out of your way but lacking that you'll just have to shoot and take your chances. Even the greatest shooters in the world will say, "There are times when you just can't explain a flier."

In the tunnel where there are no time restrictions, the air should be completely evacuated with the exhaust fan on high blower for two to three minutes. After the fan speed is reduced to low and the fixed reference scope indicates that the target image has settled down to where it really is, you can begin your group. I don't always evacuate the tunnel between every group, especially if I'm shooting alone. I'm so damn slow it has plenty of time to settle down while I clean or take a break. :rolleyes:

This is good enough for starters. Any questions?

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene beat me to it

I've been reading Vaughn's "Accuracy Facts" a page or two at a time with my breakfast muffin. Friday, I read about ring vorteces and also variable blast patterns caused by bullet canting. If you have any cant at all it seems like you'd get variable blast effects coming off the walls of a 6 foot round tunnel.
 
vtmarmot said:
I've been reading Vaughn's "Accuracy Facts" a page or two at a time with my breakfast muffin. Friday, I read about ring vorteces and also variable blast patterns caused by bullet canting. If you have any cant at all it seems like you'd get variable blast effects coming off the walls of a 6 foot round tunnel.
Click to expand...

Remember that for a supersonic projectile, the projectile moves faster than any effects that are bounced off the walls. It is the effects left by the previous bullet that are a concern, and they can be variable for a number of reasons.
 
offer for goodgrouper

Call me sometime and I'll tell you more about Lou's tunnel. I doubt he has ever regretted it. Sure it was extremely pricey.Hundreds (yes, with a S) of thousands. I use to spend alot of time in Brownings tunnel in Morgan Utah, Lou[s makes theirs junk. It truly will do anything. Temperature and humidity controled from the reloading area to bullet impact, 24 hours aday.. Video with bullet speed recorded on every shot. The bullets travel down a 4 foot square cement tube which is accoustic lined the entire way. Take a few day and come down and we'll go down for a few days.
Dave B
 
There is a group of shooters in Southern Maryland that have been testing in an old 400' long Chicken house. We call it "The Hen House". I have extensively tested bullets, jackets powders, barrels etc. The group that operates it has shot way more than I have in it. I will see if they will chirp up and discuss some of the findings as well.

This indoor location has 7 super sturdy wood benches spaced normally, a loading area and heat for the loading area during winter. There are mirage days when there appears to be a big temperature difference between the ground and air temperature. But mostly, the indoor range has the most crisp, clear target view I have ever seen. The facility is about 50 feet wide and a 10-12' ceiling. I have seen a particular young shooter shoot multiple zeros back to back and over and over again. I have seen this particular gun win the 2014 Score nationals tuned in this facility. I have seen this same young shooter do very well using the indoor tune with his PPC at Weikerts Boop Memorial shoot where he finished 2nd in the two gun to Larry Costa. Its safe to say that this facility rarely has the gremlins associated with traditional small volume tunnels (this volume is 400'x50'x12').

I will say this with the PPC. There is rarely a day that the PPC will stay in tune. Great barrels are more forgiving. Great bullets seem to make the biggest difference. This is with both V133 and LT32. The PPC might go 3 hrs or 2 hours.....but you'd better be ready to change it to keep shooting mid ones. I will say that if there was ever and indoor match at this location, all of the regular shooters would grab their 30BR's. The 30 BR will shoot the same load from 30F-95F day in day out. The 30BR rarely needs changed. I have personally witnessed 4 x 5 shot zero's in a row with one particular 30BR. Each time it has been done with Allie Eubers 117gr bullet.

To answer the original question. It is rare to find a 6PPC that will stay in tune (sub 0.200") each and every day. Furthermore, it will change after 2-4 hours and you better change it or the same load will shoot a .350".

A Novel could be started documenting what is being found in this facility. I will keep contributing as time allows.

Jeff Peinhardt
StaMoly Jackets
 
Gene Beggs said:
I don't know where to begin. :eek: Excuse me for a moment while I go get another cup of strong, black coffee. :cool:

Will the best tunnel ever built enable one to shoot one zero after another, all day long? NO!

Is a tunnel really an asset to a benchrester for testing rifles, shooters and components? YES!

Are there any mysteries about tunnel operation that experienced tunnel rats have known about for years but thus far have been unable to explain? YES, but now I believe I know what they are; RING VORTICES and SLOW MIRAGE! :eek:


Ring vortices? Yep, you've seen them many times, usually when a smoker blows a smoke ring.

A well built tunnel with complete control of the airflow eliminates dispersion caused by wind but also confines anything that is blasted down the tube when the rifle is fired; i.e., hot gases, wake turbulence created by the supersonic projectile and most importantly, ring vortices created by muzzle blast. :eek:

The tunnel blocks wind but also confines vortices that continue rotating for quite some time directly in the path of following shots. You cannot see them and they do not show up in the fixed reference scope. Same thing happens outdoors in dead calm conditions. And of course, with every shot fired, especially in rapid succession, the more likely following shots will encounter turbulence. So how do you deal with this monster? :eek:

Well, outdoors, if you have time, you can wait for a slight crosswind to drift them out of your way but lacking that you'll just have to shoot and take your chances. Even the greatest shooters in the world will say, "There are times when you just can't explain a flier."

In the tunnel where there are no time restrictions, the air should be completely evacuated with the exhaust fan on high blower for two to three minutes. After the fan speed is reduced to low and the fixed reference scope indicates that the target image has settled down to where it really is, you can begin your group. I don't always evacuate the tunnel between every group, especially if I'm shooting alone. I'm so damn slow it has plenty of time to settle down while I clean or take a break. :rolleyes:

This is good enough for starters. Any questions?

Later,

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

Thanks Gene. I was hoping you'd post. Good food for thought. I can see how those vortices could cause errant fliers. But what I'm seeing are loads that appear to be in tune, then go away too soon for them to be competitive in a match where you have to wait 30 or 40 minutes before you get back up to the line. I need more time in the tunnel to try a few more things, but honestly, I can't bring myself to do it right now. I'm just too disgusted with the current status of the industry/sport as of late, and the thought of going in there and getting frustrated yet again just doesn't sound fun anymore:(
 
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