Fixed Rest vs Bipod Accuracy

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Phil3

Guest
Just a question of curiosity. How much do you think one gives up in accuracy with a bipod (Harris) and rear bag vs shooting off a quality rest and rear bag? Assume shooting from a bench. Assume something like a 14 lb. rifle shooting 6BR. This is not necessarily a question of whether to buy a quality rest or not...just a question of how much a bipod and fixed front rest help with accuracy.

- Phil
 
I believe you will give up a lot with a bipod off the bench. My Grandson's 6X47Lapua has a camo theme because he wanted it. He wanted to shoot it off a bipod because it was cool. Bear in mind he is 10yrs old, but at a 100yds, the groups were twice as large. On the concrete bench the fore end jumped.
Butch
 
What Butch said.

Small groups can be shot off a bipod, make no mistake (e.g., http://www.6mmbr.com/TacticalFroggyA1.html). But a bipod on a concrete bench tends to bounce because the rifle pivots around the toe of the stock, and the forend of the stock where the bipod attaches is fairly springy, and there can be a lot of barrel weight in front the bipod. Plus, you generally hold onto a rifle with a bipod, and it takes a lot of practice to hold the same way for each shot.

With a pedestal front rest and rear bag the rifle can be supported where the stock is less springy (closer to the action) and the rifle slides backwards under recoil rather than pivoting on the toe of the stock.

The bullet spends about 0.001-0.002 seconds in the barrel, and in that time before the bullet leaves the muzzle the rifle moves rearward about 1/8 inch. Unless that 1/8 inch movement is EXACTLY the same with each shot, the muzzle won't be in the same place and the bullets can't go in the same hole. Shot-to-shot repeatability is much better with a pedestal front rest than with a bipod, in my experience.

My pronghorn rifle shoots OK off a bipod, though. See attached. But it does better off my old Hart rest, and I'll be hitting Butch up for a Shadetree joystick top pretty soon. :)

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 

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  • Pronghorn rifle with 300yd target small.jpg
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Boy this will open me up to catch some crap on this forum but I switched off from using a rest and went to bipod only shooting last year. I cannot tell a difference in my group sizes even at 1000 yards. But, I do practice at least 3 times a week and my pods do have some custom features.

Learning to use them is an art just like using a rest correctly. Learning to load them and getting the right feet is a big part of the game.
 
Toby,

Your comments are really helpful and informative, as are everyone's. I want to shoot accurately off a rest, to see what the rifle really can do, but also off a bipod to test my own skills. I was shooting an AR15, and from your post, I was doing everything wrong. The toe of my stock had the sling loop on it, jammed into a sandbag. The AR is front heavy because of the .920" diameter, 22" long barrel, and I did not hold onto the rifle except with my trigger hand. I then used the range bags, front and rear, and put the front sand bag out at the end of the handguard far away from the receiver. Gosh, what else could I have done wrong? On the bipod, the rifle hopped quite a bit, and on the bags, it still did. I had to move it quite a bit to get back on target.

It sounds like I will need to experiment some to figure out what works well with a bipod. I am mostly interested in using the rest to take me out of the equation as much as possible when developing loads and seeing what the rifle is truly capable of. It is obvious now, I am the limiting factor, based on all the wrong things I am doing. I am rather amazed now the thing actually shot a .625" group at 100 yards and 2.75" at 300 yards with factory (non-match ammo), given all the mistakes I was making.

- Phil
 
I like using the bi-pods because it's convenient, less to carry to the bench, faster to set up and lighter to tote around. I see no accuracy difference at 600 -1K, but the only gun I have with a pod on it is a 6BR to compare with. Curios, what matches can you use them in?
 
Phil ...

Phil3 said:
Just a question of curiosity. How much do you think one gives up in accuracy with a bipod (Harris) and rear bag vs shooting off a quality rest and rear bag? Assume shooting from a bench. Assume something like a 14 lb. rifle shooting 6BR. This is not necessarily a question of whether to buy a quality rest or not...just a question of how much a bipod and fixed front rest help with accuracy. - Phil
Click to expand...

A .001" movement at the rifle equates to approximately 1/4" movement on the target at 100 yards. How much movement [in thousands of an inch] is there in your bipod?
 
Here is the pod claws on one of my rifles with reverse hardware....

100_2819.jpg



I have two TRG's that I made these feet for and although it is scary to drill on a $500 bipod they work great on the bench and on the ground...

100_2791.jpg


100_2790.jpg


100_2789.jpg
 
Phil,

Interesting post. I have always shot better off of a bipod, despite the fact that I have a very nice Joe Wagner built front rest. I have never been able to get a handle on shooting off of it. No fault of the rest...I'm sure my technique just sucks. But I've always wondered if there was more accuracy in my guns shooting off the rest.

I have experimented a bit with different holds with the bipod, and my findings mirror those from other posters. You have to get all over the rifle when shooting off a bipod on a concrete bench. I have a very accurate Hart barreled .223 that I was playing with one day. If I got "cute" with the hold, I would get vertical...big time. I reasoned that it was the bipods rubber feet skipping across the concrete bench during recoil. I even marked where the pads were on the bench prior to the shot, and after I could see that the whole affair had moved during recoil. When I get on the gun, groups improved dramatically. Even then, you could see a vertical tendency in the groups.

Justin
 
This post is like asking a race car driver what he thinks about racing motorcycles. It all boils down to what you have become skilled at in your own shooting. I came from a HighPower background so I am use to being one "riding" my rifles and a 1.5 to 2 pound trigger is light for me compared to those 2 oz benchrest triggers. I will not argue the math but I think you will get a different opinion as you talk to different types of shooters.

I came out of load development this past Saturaday with my 6mm Shankle. I shot a .82" 5 shot group at my 425 yard bench then moved back to 1000 and shot 5 shots at slightly over 4.5". Now is that good for most of these bench guys...probably not, is it as good as I can do from a benchrest...yes it is! Maybe there is a much clearer answer for short range but with wind being such a big factor at distance I cannot see the difference in a bipod or rest at long range...but that is me and I am a strange critter anyway! :rolleyes:

I have all the respect in the world for the guys that master the rest...I never could. So, I just keep shootin how I shoot! :D
 
Phil
To best answer your question you need to try both set-ups the same day side by side.If you let me know the dimensions of your AR I will bring a spare bag to the range at Circle S and you can try both set-ups for yourself.I need the buttstock dimensions as well.
Better yet would be to try your AR at a 600 yard club match in Sacramento.Everybody there is a gun nut and would make sure your on paper and doing well besides that I think they like your enthusiasm.
Waterboy
 
I'm not necessarily more accurate off a bipod... but I generally am more consistent, if that makes any sense. Then again, I put pretty much the majority of my rounds in competition and practice down range that way... I'm just about to the point of doing my load development (with a few exceptions) from a 'pod. Shooting from a rest vs. a 'pod is a whole different skill set, and I just don't do it enough to be quite as confident about knowing when a shot is a little out if it was me, the wind, or the gun/ammo.
 
Lynn said:
Phil
To best answer your question you need to try both set-ups the same day side by side.If you let me know the dimensions of your AR I will bring a spare bag to the range at Circle S and you can try both set-ups for yourself.I need the buttstock dimensions as well.
Better yet would be to try your AR at a 600 yard club match in Sacramento.Everybody there is a gun nut and would make sure your on paper and doing well besides that I think they like your enthusiasm.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

Hi Lynn,

I thought about buying fitments to permit an AR to ride in bags. They are seen here.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek090.html

But, for the time being, will provide dimensions when I get home. Exactly what measurements do you need?

Club match? What match or organization besides NBRSA has 600 yard matches? And when? Or are you talking NBRSA? I don't think I would want to mix it up with those guys with an AR.

This AR15 was definitely not built for 600 yard shooting. It has a 1:9 twist barrel and can shoot up to 69 grain bullets, maybe 75s. 600 yards is a long ways for these I think. If I had a 1:8" or 1:7" twist shooting 80 grain bullets I would feel better, but those have be singly loaded...won't fit in the mag.

Last thing is I would need good ammo for a distance like that, and without all my reloading equipment in yet need to buy match ammo, at a $1.50 a shot! No way to find Federal Gold Match, but can get Lapua. Right now, I am using BlackHills remanufactured or new.

- Phil
 
If you're interested in reading about bench technique, here are some good places to start:

The Accurate Rifle by Warren Page
The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy by Glenn Newick
Extreme Rifle Accuracy by Mike Ratigan
The Benchrest Shooting Primer edited by Dave Brennan (Precision Shooting)

I think most or all of these can be purchased from Sinclair if you can't borrow a copy from someone.

One-on-one instruction from an accomplished benchrest shooter is better than any amount of reading, though.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
Phil3 said:
At this point, I don't think I have become skilled at any one thing in the shooting arena.

- Phil
Click to expand...

Based on a damn good question, and the fact you are thinking about things instead of following the pack...I will bet your above statement is not true. ;)
 
Phil
I would need to know how wide your forend is where the rifle will rest in the front bag.Is it round? Or is it flat on the bottom? I will put a bag in my rest that most closely matches your forend that way.
On the buttstock you don't want any attachments at all so if you have sling swivels unscrew them.I also need to know how wide it is as I have several Edgewoods and a bunch of Dierks combinations for a rear rest.

Don't worry about your twist at 600 yards.My hunting rifles shoot good enough to not embarass you at 600 yards so check your ego at the door and start shooting.A guy like Jerry Tierney would probaly give us all a run for our money with your AR.Also don't worry about your bullets your there to learn and any decent bullet will have you on paper and learning.That doesn't mean bring 40 grain bullets but those 69's will work just fine.
Waterboy
 
The forend (handguard) is 2.0" in diameter and is round. It has a rather rough finish on it, so may want to wrap it something smooth to facilitate ease of movement. I will remove the sling attachment. The profile of the stock is of course narrow at the bottom widening in the middle and then narrowing at the top again. The width of the stock 1"' up from the bottom is 1.15". I hope that is enough info.

When you say "there to learn", just what "there" are you referring to? NBRSA, or...? I can not find any match target type ammo (not hunting) in 69 grain that is available. Best is probably Federal Gold Match, but this is just nowhere to be found. And the Lapua is hollow point boat tail for expansion (hunting). It is 69 grain, found at Grafs.

- Phil
 
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