Firing pin energy vs accuracy
- Thread starter ab_bentley
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
I very much agree. When rf shooters buy test lots, is this not the same as cf shooters changing the load? If not, then how so. If you agree that it is, then how do rf and cf differ in how we tune them? And, if moving a tuner can make groups bigger and smaller with both, then why can we not use the tuner to tune the gun to the ammo, to at least get that ammo's potential from it? And if we can do that, why can't we use a tuner to maintain tune as temps change?
Of course I'm asking questions that I have already answered for myself, to my own satisfaction. IMHO, the answer is yes, that tuners do all of the above. I simply hope that it makes people think for themselves on the subject of tuners and the notion that some people have regarding rimfire tuning being some mystical work of art that is totally different than with centerfire.
Why on earth some people refuse to move a tuner is beyond me. It's a tool that makes groups bigger and smaller, regardless of how. It only makes sense that all shooters would want to learn very well how to use it to make groups small and keep them small.
Instead, there are folks that say "don't touch that thing" or you'll go to hell for it! Lol!
The trick is learning how to make that tool work for you, and it's very easy. The two most common mistakes with tuners is moving it too far and moving it too often. I've said that about a gazillion times by now, but that is not to say, to never move it at all.
Not to be overly sarcastic, when you can drive a 22 a fraction as well as some of the “set it and forget it top dogs”, the ones that shoot well in widely differing conditions, you would make progress.
Come up here, shoot my #1 rifle with my #1 ammunition and show me to a reasonable level of understanding something that improves my setup...... $1000 from my hand to yours.
That said, and I consider myself a reasonably intelligent, open minded guy. I have one honest question.
Have you actually ever checked some scorlines and/or match reportsto see how well and how long some of these guys shoot that do not adjust on a “per case” basis ? What, perhaps, can you offer in the way of improvement ?
Come up here, shoot my #1 rifle with my #1 ammunition and show me to a reasonable level of understanding something that improves my setup...... $1000 from my hand to yours.
That said, and I consider myself a reasonably intelligent, open minded guy. I have one honest question.
Have you actually ever checked some scorlines and/or match reportsto see how well and how long some of these guys shoot that do not adjust on a “per case” basis ? What, perhaps, can you offer in the way of improvement ?
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I agree with the reasonably intelligent part Tim, but not the open minded part. You're still stuck in the same "do what everyone else does" rut, that we talked about earlier here.
Yes, I keep up with the scores pretty closely. I shot ARA/PSL RF for a season. I saw what I wanted to see. What I did was I shot several different lots throughout the year and tuned them to their potential in my rifle, that I barreled and bedded myself. I didn't do too bad, winning several cards and finishing well in several matches...against some of the "top dogs" even. I saw pretty quickly that I could be competitive with a gun I built myself and without spending thousands of dollars testing ammo. I learned a lot by doing it for a season. One of the biggest things learned was that amongst tuned ammo, some stood out against the rest. The best ammo was still the best..but, what often looked like junk, tuned right in and became some of the best. Go figure! Kinda proves my whole point. If I never moved the tuner I would've most certainly tossed some of the best ammo I shot aside.
Tim, your $1000 wager is a nice try but probably wouldn't pay my gas bill, only to come and talk to a brick wall, whose mind is made up. Essentially, what you're betting is that I won't be able to make your perfectly tuned rifle more than perfectly in tune. To that, I agree and always have unless the tune has gone away due to temps, which is not only possible but likely to happen to some degree. Am I willing to drive to beautiful upstate NY to find out..No. I can see that right here.
As I said, if you've found something that works for you, I'm very happy about that. I'm stating what I have found every time and science is on my side. If you have found a way for art to defy science, great. Furthermore, what I've found is that, while taking nothing away from the amazing accuracy that rimfire can demonstrate, it's still nowhere near centerfire, where you can better control the variables of ammo and wind, providing for a much more reliable basis on which to form conclusions about tuning. Remember, we already covered that an inert rifle doesn't know if it's firing a rimfire or a centerfire cartridge. The gun still vibrates at its own natural frequency, only amplitude changes, for sake of this discussion. So please don't go down the mystical, magical art of rimfire path with me. It doesn't hold much water.
Tuners
Mr. Tim. I definitely am not one of the top shooters. What I have observed from many of the top shooters is that they come to the line with several different lots of ammo. They may not touch the tuner, but they keep changing ammo until they find something that works with their tune on that day. If you never were supposed to touch the tuner why not go to the line with only one lot number. If the never touch it theory is correct one lot should be all that you would need. I have personally watched some of the best change lots 8 to 12 times before finding the right lot for the conditions. Not trying to be argumentative just stating what I have seen.
Mr. Tim. I definitely am not one of the top shooters. What I have observed from many of the top shooters is that they come to the line with several different lots of ammo. They may not touch the tuner, but they keep changing ammo until they find something that works with their tune on that day. If you never were supposed to touch the tuner why not go to the line with only one lot number. If the never touch it theory is correct one lot should be all that you would need. I have personally watched some of the best change lots 8 to 12 times before finding the right lot for the conditions. Not trying to be argumentative just stating what I have seen.
I am as far from a” follow the other guys” as it’s possible to get.
You may wax eloquent about science, but show me the converts that you’ve lead to the podium.
I am perfectly aware of several guys, using lots of science driving tuner adjustment driven by temps and air density, none of which have shown to be consistantly repeatable.
I mean no insult, but you’ve simply not shot enough rimfire nor likely sat behind a top flight gun to bring us from the theoretical to the practical application, and trust me, I would love for that to happen, truly would because I have been involved in more than a few projects to test andtry and advance my learning curve.......always will.
The translation that CF & RF are as close as you profess......naw.
Pretty much beat this to death, which is good healthy discussion, always appreciated.
P.S. I am fully a believer in CF tuning and likely will be building a rig with a tuner for shooting 133 if and when I get done fooling with LT32 & LT30 in the PPC.
You may wax eloquent about science, but show me the converts that you’ve lead to the podium.
I am perfectly aware of several guys, using lots of science driving tuner adjustment driven by temps and air density, none of which have shown to be consistantly repeatable.
I mean no insult, but you’ve simply not shot enough rimfire nor likely sat behind a top flight gun to bring us from the theoretical to the practical application, and trust me, I would love for that to happen, truly would because I have been involved in more than a few projects to test andtry and advance my learning curve.......always will.
The translation that CF & RF are as close as you profess......naw.
Pretty much beat this to death, which is good healthy discussion, always appreciated.
P.S. I am fully a believer in CF tuning and likely will be building a rig with a tuner for shooting 133 if and when I get done fooling with LT32 & LT30 in the PPC.
Joey, some do,many do not. Some come to a match with Lapua and ELEY as well.
Some , quite a few in fact, show up for big matches with the best stuff they own ( if they have any left) that was made in 2011-2012.
Some major scores were shot with new ammo brought to the ARA PSL show recently that was shot from start to finish, apparantly.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Step number one is for you to stop trying degrade my position based on what and how much I have shot. You have no idea what I have or haven't shot unless I tell you, or how much. You simply don't know how much experience I have in shooting anything other than I just told you that I competed for one season in ARA/PSL. That's all you know but you were proclaiming me as inexperienced before I even told you that, so stop it. It's meaningless anyway. I've got more experience than you know but all one really needs, is enough experience to know what a truly competitive top tier gun is and what that means. Trust me...I got that part down.
Maybe you can teach me something though and I'm all ears, if you can explain to me how, all else equal, the natural frequency of a rf rifle is different than as a centerfire. Afterall, that's what tuning is all about, which in simple terms, is timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position. I have seen no answers from you, nor contribution to the discussion other than telling me I'm wrong because I haven't done it long enough or that I don't know what a good gun is. So please help us all out here, Tim. Since you know I'm wrong, surely you can state precisely why, and in terms we can all understand. You know the old saying...If you can't explain it in terms any dummy can understand, you don't understand it well enough yourself. So lets hear it. Is it all about art or does physics still mean something?
Calm down there champion. This is, and always will be a results driven endeavor. My statement simply reflects the fact that you and or your equipment have little results based performance giving greater validity to all the science you proclaim as well as less of a confirmation as to your real world familiarity of above mentioned .
And although I have thick skin, let’s not overlook you’re initial comment about me simply “following the leader” because I probably don’t know any better.
You’ve done this for a season, I’ve done it for 25+.....fair point ?
I have no less respect for ANYBODY trying things but go back and re read all the stuff you wright about ignition being exactly the same.......baloney.
There is a reason most CF guys won’t touch a 22 and the gentleman you quoted built about 6-8 22’s, none of which ever did a damn thing before he waived the white flag.
And although I have thick skin, let’s not overlook you’re initial comment about me simply “following the leader” because I probably don’t know any better.
You’ve done this for a season, I’ve done it for 25+.....fair point ?
I have no less respect for ANYBODY trying things but go back and re read all the stuff you wright about ignition being exactly the same.......baloney.
There is a reason most CF guys won’t touch a 22 and the gentleman you quoted built about 6-8 22’s, none of which ever did a damn thing before he waived the white flag.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Well, fwiw, I have been shooting competitively for much longer than 25 years and it started with rf. No, not registered matches but I knew a good rifle long before that. Yes, evolving into sanctioned shooting is always an eye opener. I did that long ago though and it has expanded how I look at new things. I'd rather have a little bit of good experience with new things that are backed by physics than all the experience in the world wasting time on things that are countered by science. Thank goodness for that!
I'm not sure what you're referring to that I've written on ignition other than what I've seen. I don't make many claims about ignition theories because I haven't tested that area much. I'd rather write about things that I do have ample experience and testing to support...like tuners. If I quoted someone else earlier about ignition, it was for that reason. I think what I said was in reference to his .002" indentation actually making a gun go bang at all, hoping it would at least make people think about what we read and hear often..and it was on topic! I think I clearly stated that I was not claiming his ignition system to be better or worse than others.
I can only speak for myself here but you're right, there is a reason why most cf shooters won't touch a rf. We've already covered part of it but a big reason to me, is that we can control so many more variables in cf, that are left up to ammo makers, etc, in rf. I know that's a big factor in why I don't compete in rf any longer..at least for now. At a point, it was because I could shoot about 5 different cf ranges within 3.5hrs from home. That was certainly a factor as well. Since then, there have been a couple more rf ranges start holding matches in the same general area. So, I can't and don't use that as my excuse any more.
Another reason is that to be truly competitive, cf is cheaper, believe it or not. That gets back to my earlier statement, that even after tuning, some rf ammo is just better than others. Surprise!
I know people at the top of the rf game who have bought $20k worth of ammo just to find a couple of lots that were capable of winning, for them. That's a tough pill to swallow to truly compete at the top. I have always stated that tuners will allow you to extract whatever potential a load has, in your gun. It's true, be it rf or cf but I still advocate finding the best load in your gun before moving the tuner. In cf, I consider that to be 100% true. In rf, it's harder because you can't tweak the load, so I suggest tweaking the tuner a few marks either way with various lots of ammo. Remember, I said I shot pretty competitively with various lots of ammo by tuning it with the tuner and that some of the ammo tested was poor before tuning to it, but became some of my best.
You can think as you wish Tim. But I've been consistent in my message and will stay that way until I find proof that there is a better way. Right now, I see rf shooters trying just about everything to try to find anything that works but it's because there are so many experts claiming their way, while unfounded by science, to be the best. Ask ten people and get 12 answers kinda thing. At least my way works for me and is supported by physics. I'm not twisting any arms here but my way is much better than following a blind squirrel to a nut in the dark.
I'm gonna leave with that. You can continue to try and discredit me however you wish but at least offer SOMETHING other than I'm wrong. So far you have given zero answers and a lot of negativity. Not only can you not state why I'm wrong but you can't even state why you're right...except that's what somebody else has always done.
Good night!
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One final thought. First off, frankly, I’ve never actually said you’re wrong, what I have stated as have others, I have seen no factual evidence or results showing me improvement or lots of others using the methodology I utilize which yields comprhensive results over widely differing conditions.
You don’t shoot anymore....OK, point me to the student(s) that have studied at the hand of the master to help educate me. I strive to learn but the mission is to go forward not sideways.
I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
You don’t shoot anymore....OK, point me to the student(s) that have studied at the hand of the master to help educate me. I strive to learn but the mission is to go forward not sideways.
I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
Yep as it relates to the CF world, no argument from me.
In the rimfire world, as far as it being exactly the same...I have many unanswered questions ?
This started with commentary about how ignition, among other things, is exactly the same, which is patently incorrect.at the end of the day I don’t need to argue, I need to see where the utilization evidence exists. Lets try and remember, nobody is arguing against tuners, simply some methodology.
By the way, you ever spend any time at all behind an IR sporter??
Nice to see your second carrer as a motivational speaker is coming along Fred.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I don't think anyone, but specifically myself, ever said ignition systems were equal. All I see is you stating that what I have found to work, can't work, without ever saying why it won't work or describe what you do and why it works better.
FWIW, Gene makes tuners and does a lot of testing in his state of the art tunnel. After seeing my posts for a few years and doing just as you, dismissing my findings, he finally decided to test my method in his tunnel. Guess what! He now advocates my method of tuning.
What I'd like to see from you is some actual contribution to this discussion, since we completely hijacked tis thread...at least bring something to the table. How about you explain why rf rifles tune differently than cf. I'll sit back and watch. Remember my previous post on this...I do agree that they tune differently, just not as much differently as some claim. My position after doing vibration analysis and confirming my findings there, in competition, is that the only difference is that due to ammo speed and lower vibrational frequency, everything is slower with a rf and that measurably translates to a little larger tuner adjustment to accomplish the same thing as with a typical cf br rifle. I can be pretty specific and state that the difference is about double but that there is typically at least one sweet spot in every revolution of my tuner on a typical rf br rifle. Other makes vary a small amount but are still very similar to what I find with mine. I've tested most all of them, including several home made tuners. We've hijacked the thread but if you'd bring something to the table, it could at least make for a decent tuner thread.
As I said earlier, I do think you have a good head on your shoulders, just not a very open mind.
So far, I see it bothers you when I say that...that you see yourself as willing to try different things and as someone with lots experience. But, all you have done is state that I'm wrong because I don't have enough experience to be right...and your reasoning is that some top tier shooters do it some other way. IOW, you are just parroting something that you've heard without quantifying anything nor pointing out why I'm wrong and you're right.
You seem to be saying that I'm right about cf but wrong about rf.
The ball is in your court Timmy...Bring some heat this time!
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First off don’t assume.
Second off since obviously I shoot tuners, why would you simply assume I ‘m being dismissive, I cannot tell you how much time and ammo we’ ve judicially expended to see if constant adjustment yields advantage. Franky, I wish I knew why or why not but in the rimfire world I suspect it may be barrel specific.
I know how to tune a rimfire to a high degree IMHO and I and respected others simply have not seen yield advantage.
What am I doing wrong?
Trust me if you’ve got a better path, I’m in.
Have you done any of this, ever, on a very high grade rimfire barrel, I mean a real consistant rig?
And again.....any of you guys.....still have not said a damn word on the wonderful world of IR sporters with immovable tuners that would seem to defy a little bit of this.
I,m not trying to be a PIA here....sincere questions that deserv answers, no?
Second off since obviously I shoot tuners, why would you simply assume I ‘m being dismissive, I cannot tell you how much time and ammo we’ ve judicially expended to see if constant adjustment yields advantage. Franky, I wish I knew why or why not but in the rimfire world I suspect it may be barrel specific.
I know how to tune a rimfire to a high degree IMHO and I and respected others simply have not seen yield advantage.
What am I doing wrong?
Trust me if you’ve got a better path, I’m in.
Have you done any of this, ever, on a very high grade rimfire barrel, I mean a real consistant rig?
And again.....any of you guys.....still have not said a damn word on the wonderful world of IR sporters with immovable tuners that would seem to defy a little bit of this.
I,m not trying to be a PIA here....sincere questions that deserv answers, no?
Gene Beggs
Active member
You're Right Tim
I should have kept my mouth shut and stayed out of this. No, I'm not a rimfire shooter. Sorry for butting in.
I just have such high regard for Mike Ezell that I can't remain silent if I think he needs help. I wish you and Mike could get together and demonstrate how you each use a rimfire tuner. Obviously, you are in the "Set it and leave it" camp and Mike Ezell is very much in the "Take full advantage of the adjustments" camp.
I hope some good comes of this. I'll now crawl back under my rock, remain silent and listen.
Gene Beggs
I should have kept my mouth shut and stayed out of this. No, I'm not a rimfire shooter. Sorry for butting in.
I just have such high regard for Mike Ezell that I can't remain silent if I think he needs help. I wish you and Mike could get together and demonstrate how you each use a rimfire tuner. Obviously, you are in the "Set it and leave it" camp and Mike Ezell is very much in the "Take full advantage of the adjustments" camp.
I hope some good comes of this. I'll now crawl back under my rock, remain silent and listen.
Gene Beggs
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Yes...they do! You're ignoring them, though.
I'll answer your one question about sporters because I said I would and forgot to. I asked you to please start a new thread but here we are....
Tuners do two things.
Just having a mass at the end of the barrel lowers the frequency the barrel vibrates at. This yields a wider tune window.(lower fequency essentially means the barrel vibrates slower) Yes, it stays in tune LONGER and it's easier to find. Hence, a heavier tuner, to a point, is a good thing. RF barrels can typically take more weight before giving accuracy issues than cf barrels due to being less stiff. Yes, this is counter intuitive but it's true. Anyway, yes, having mass at the end of the barrel is of benefit even if you never move it. In the case of rf, it makes it easier to find a "good" lot and keeps it in tune longer but is NOT impervious to tune changes related to temperature. Powder burning is a chemical reaction and all chemical reactions are temperature dependent, so they still go out, so bring a few lots with your sporter.
The other thing they do is allow you to time where the barrel is, in it's vibrational pattern, with bullet exit. The only way to fix temp related tune changes is to change the load, which is how cf shooters have always done it, or move the tuner, if it's a non-sporter. We could discuss options to that, like changing tension on action screws, but I'll go against the rf grain again and state that a glue in is best when practical.
There ya go!
I'll expound a little further on something that I've mentioned already but gets lost in the "noise" of these discussions.
If you're looking for a tuner or different tuning method that improves upon a gun that is already in perfect tune, you'll be disappointed. Perfectly tuned is well, perfectly tuned. So, looking for your best groups to get smaller is not at all what I'm talking about. But, if you're leaving a little crumb on the table in regard to tune, particularly when changing lots or in temp changes, moving the tuner is all it takes to pick up that crumb. I'm not saying to grab it and twist it some obscure amount, not at all. You have to be methodical about it. It's very typical for there to only be about 8-10 marks(rimfire!) on my tuner between completely in tune to completely out of tune, shooting about as big as it can. So, I strongly advocate moving 1 single mark at a time. Once you've found that 8-10 mark window on your barrel, a 2-4 mark adjustment is very big for any temp change. The only time I've found that you need to move that much is for ammo lot number changes.
More in depth on that later.
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Gene, Look, I know who you are and what you represent. You have every right to wade into the swamp with the rest of us.
Let’s for just a moment realise some of us have been screwing with tuners fo 20 odd years and for myself, I’ve done everything short of putting them on my salad.
I’m a simple guy....hit me in the head and tell me to “try it this way” and I damn sure will.
I’m not really as dumb as you suspect.
