Fireforming in the PPC.

donjfred said:
Joe,
Check your PM. I have photos from the Shamrock for you.
Don
Click to expand...

Don...no pictures were taken after the Shamrock awards ceremony, and one or two are needed for the magazine article. Would you be willing to share a few of your pictures?

Thanks.
Steve

P.S. Technically not my job...I'm just trying to help the Shamrock guys out.
 
Going back to Joe's original post is simplicity at it's best. Just about every shooter will go to the line knowing there will be one or two fouling shots. Here is the prime time to form a piece or two. No more wear than normal, formed perfectly in your chamber. You could easily form 10 pieces of brass each match, every match, and you would never run out of formed brass.

If you want a formed piece of brass before turning necks, it can be done without a bullet, just a case full of bullseye and a paper wad. The bolt will crush-fit closed the same as if you were firing a 22 bullet, but no bullet going into no-man's land.
 
flirting with the grim reaper

JACKIE

I don't post much, but read many of them, especially THIS thread. I do exactly as Joe does and probably for the same reasons.
My question to you and others that fireform/have fireformed before turning is this.

If you fire a .22 in a 6 without turning first, common sense seems to dictate to me, that the neck will be undersize for the expander mandrel which is to be used prior to inserting said case onto the neck turning mandrel.
That said, I use the expander which Pumpkin sent (as a seperate unit,) which sizes precisely as it should be for the one on his neck turner.
Using a .262 neck as many of us do, I see this as being less than favorable.
You, and others, that are into a .269 neck need not be that concerned.
Is there any logic to my querry?

Thanks..
 
Joe Krupa said:
Using other than 133 or 322 or some powder other than that meant to be shot in a PPC is somewhat concerning to me. I know of a guy who was using VV 130 to form his cases and was planning on switching to 133 for the then-formed case to be shot in the match. Unfortunately, he forgot to switch the powder bottles and he shot a full case full of 130 in the match. The gun blew up and he suffered some significant facial damage. Pistol powder in a PPC scares me. And a .22 bullet tumbling down a 6mm barrel leaves one to wonder where it could possibly go.

.
Click to expand...

Joe, are you sure the guy blew up an action with a case full of V130 in a 6PPC?
He must have forgot to turn the necks too??
 
Fireforming

I have all the dies to load a round as a .220 Russian. I fireform with a .22 bullet in a 6mm barrel (old one) chambered with a .270 neck. My bench guns also are .270 neck.

I do have to expand the cases after they are fireformed and then turn them. The shoulder is much better defined and it is easy to see where to stop the cut near the shoulder. I really like this method of fireforming.

I have been shooting the rounds into a 25 yard berm for safety reasons when no one else is around. The angle of the K&M cutting tool is 30 degrees I think, so this is much better than trying to do this with the 21 degree angle of the .220 Russian case. The cases look great. I don't think this is nonsense!

GW

Left is case fireformed with .22 bullets/Right is after expanding and turning
2irw5xt.jpg
 
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JMaistro

Your heading, "flirting with the grim reaper" might be a tad over dramatic.

Anyway, since I don't do much of anything like everyone else, here is what I do.

After I blow out the case in a .269 neck 6PPC Chamber, I place some sizing wax on the turners mandrel, and simply press, (using a little Sinclair Arbor Press), the case onto the neck turning mandrel untill it contacts the tool.I then clamp the T-Handle one, and turn the neck. It turns out that the ID of the neck of the case is just about the right size when fired in a .269 neck chamber.

As you press it on, you will feel where it hits that tight spot at the neck shoulder junction. No big deal.

Keep in mind, I do not turn necks by hand very often. I have a little neck turner on my desk, and if I want to make up 10 or so new cases to take to the range for practice, I do it. I can blow them out, trim them, and neck turn all right there.

Any large quantity and I set my lathe up and single point them.

Gary Walters does the same thing with a .270 neck......jackie
 
Jerry...

... I could give you the guy's name, but won't do it on the internet. You would know who he is. He was very lucky that he was wearing protective shooting glasses.

Actually, the lugs held and he had minute pieces of case and burnt powder shot back the raceways on a two-lug action and out the left loading port into his face. (The lugs are vertical and don't block the raceways in a two-lug action when the bolt is closed.) You would be surprised how much stuff gets blown between the boltface and the barrel cone when a case gets blown up.
 
Jerry

I have shot 130 in the 6PPC, and yes, you can put enough in there to produce a severe overload.

For instance, the standard "upper end load" is with about 27.5 grns and a typical 68 grn match bullet. If someone were "expanding" them with a full case, that would be 30+ grns. Way too much.........jackie
 
fireforming a ppc

Jackie,

I do understand your response, and also Gary's input. Actually, I was not or would not question anything you do, but rather...... using that method with a .262 dia. neck . One would certainly need to expand the neck considerably more than you are doing with a .270 chamber.
Thanks again..
 
jmaisto

I use a .262 neck, and yes I have to expand a small amount before turning. But Joe (or Ron) has to expand a LOT before turning the brass. This is where the brass seems to get crooked. I have made brass both ways, and the use of the .22 bullet makes the best finished product...at least it does for me. Good shooting....James
 
That's kind of where I was going with this. It is simply how much more you have to expand . No question of how much straighter the necks will be using your method.

Thanks James
 
Reducing the amount of expanding needed with a .262 neck is simple...Turn just shy of final thickness at .22 caliber, before loading with the .22 bullet. BTW, if you use a BT .22 caliber bullet, your 6PPC Wilson seater will produce very straight ammo.

What I meant to write was that when turning at .22 caliber, one should leave just enough thickness that there is something left to clean up on the final turning at 6mm, after firing.
 
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JD Mock said:
The procedure is very straight forward. Load a .22 bullet in the .220 case with rifle powder suitable for the PPC i.e. H322, N133, 2015, H4198, etc. Load a stiff load and fire the bullet through an old 6PPC barrel. Fire it directly into the ground....
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I think we all tend to develop a nonchalant attitude when performing redundant day-to-day routines, such as driving a car or using power tools. I also see this trend in many of the shooting disciplines, and benchrest is not an exception. This is why I frown upon these unconventional reloading and brass preparation techniques.

Since I’ve been working in this business, I’ve seen plenty of disastrous results from dangerous and careless reloading procedures. We seem to lose sight of the fact that shooting a rifle involves a controlled explosion less than a foot away from our face.

About twenty years ago, I saw a shooter narrowly escape serious injury and possibly death by fireforming brass in a Ruger No.1 that was chambered in a wildcat .45-70. He was using smaller than .45 caliber cast bullets for his process, and apparently one slug stuck about half-way down the barrel. The next shot destroyed the rifle – it blew apart into at least a dozen pieces. I remember the barrel ruptured the where the first slug wedged on an angle. The beautiful Unertl scope mounted on the rifle bent skyward into a perfect “L” shape, held in place by the rear ring.

I’ll never forget this otherwise intelligent shooter (who was a gunsmith and rebedded my first varmint rifle) commenting on how he had used this procedure for many years without incident. He was as white as a ghost and thankful to be alive.

I’m glad I was on the other end of the range...

Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
 
For practical purposes with a 6PPC BR rifle

Joe's method is the most convenient, seems to be at least as good as any other, and requires no special consideration.
 
Jerry you the man, can always count on an honest and thoughtful responce, gotta love ya.

Dan Honert
 
Dan H said:
Jerry you the man, can always count on an honest and thoughtful responce, gotta love ya.

Dan Honert
Click to expand...
Thanks Dan. Run over to Hickory Saturday, You'd love it.

(If they still had Vaudeville, me and Wilbur would made a great team-not)
 
i may have missed it in the 30 some posts...but n130 is not a pistol powder....or did i miss something in the opening text...
.
30 gr of n130 is 109% of a 33gr vol 6ppc case....if he got it al in its about 70kpsi
now if he was using n310( a pistol powder) a caseful....is only 17 gr but 110 kpsi
mike in co
 
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