Fireforming in the PPC.

J

Joe Krupa

Member
I have been reading with great interest the different thoughts on forming cases and I must admit that I am somewhat confused as to why there is so much consternation over this.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that there is one overriding point that seems to be fact to me: you can basically wear out a barrel with 25 to 50 pieces of brass. And I am convinced that 95% of the shooters in our sport don't buy more than two to five barrels a year. (Unfortunately, the past five years I have been in the 5% category - but, the concept that I use can be extrapolated over the number of barrels used.)

When I get a new barrel, I break it in with 25 pieces of newly turned brass. (I'm lazy and I would rather poke a stick in my eye than turn brass. Thus, I turn brass by writing a check to Ron Hoehn - I can't cut brass anywhere close to how Ron can do it.) I clean the new barrel, and then shoot ten pieces to both fireform and break in the barrel. Then I clean the barrel and shoot the remaining 15. After that, I clean the barrel and start tuning it with the first ten. (I am convinced that you break in a barrel by shooting it more so than by cleaning it.)

I fill the unformed case with about 50 clicks of 133 and use a factory 70 gr. bullet so as to not use up my good match bullets. The barrel is basically broken-in after that first 25, plus the next 25 or so working up a load.

If I decide I need more than 25 pieces of brass for that barrel, I use the fouling shot for the ensuing record matches to both fireform another new piece of brass and foul the barrel. You have to foul the barrel anyway, why use a full case and a good bullet when its doesn't count?

I took two new barrels and 75 pieces of unformed brass to the Shamrock. On Friday I broke in the barrels and formed 50 pieces of brass, and somewhat tuned the gun with 50 of those 75 pieces. (I say "somewhat" because I never had anything working until Sunday afternoon.) And during the match I formed the remaining 25 while fouling the barrel for the record matches.

Using other than 133 or 322 or some powder other than that meant to be shot in a PPC is somewhat concerning to me. I know of a guy who was using VV 130 to form his cases and was planning on switching to 133 for the then-formed case to be shot in the match. Unfortunately, he forgot to switch the powder bottles and he shot a full case full of 130 in the match. The gun blew up and he suffered some significant facial damage. Pistol powder in a PPC scares me. And a .22 bullet tumbling down a 6mm barrel leaves one to wonder where it could possibly go.

This system is simple and accomplishes three things necessary with shooting competitively: case forming, breaking in a barrel and fouling the barrel before a record match.
 
Joe Krupa said:
I'm no expert, but it seems to me that there is one overriding point that seems to be fact to me: you can basically wear out a barrel with 25 to 50 pieces of brass. And I am convinced that 95% of the shooters in our sport don't buy more than two to five barrels a year. (Unfortunately, the past five years I have been in the 5% category - but, the concept that I use can be extrapolated over the number of barrels used.)
Click to expand...


Hi Joe,

Over the past 5 years, apprx. how many barrels do you average per year?...................Don
 
Joe, That is way too simple to work in this world of "gotta have the next best way".....

Plus, you don't follow the "fill it to the top" loading practice.

Refreshing.
 
More than five...

... and less than Tony.


Seriously, when I was chasing points I had two unlimited barrels and five to ten lights chambered per year since 2004. I still have barrels from 2005 and later that I haven't fired yet.

Lately, after watching Boyer shoot that old Hart HV, I have been shooting my heavy varmint rifle a bit more; so I have had two heavies and three lights chambered for 2009.
 
Joe

I know how you feel. I can set my EE Monarch up to single point necks, and can do one every 25 seconds.

But I absolutly HATE doing it.

I do differ with you on brass. By far the best aggs I have ever shot were with fresh brass. I guess it is a mental thing, even though cases might still be perfectly good, I just feel better starting out with fresh cases for a each Two Gun Event.
........jackie
 
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Joe,

You are right about firing a 22 bullet down a 6mm barrel. I tried it several years back. Our range had about a 5 yard dump of sand off to one side at about 80 yards. I fired 20 shots at it and hit it twice. I have no idea where the other 18 went. Fortunately we have a large impact area, and that is probably where they went.

Steve Kostanich
 
huh... your sposed to change out your brass?? maybe that was the problem with my shooting. I figured the necks coming off was prolly a bad thing :eek:
 
OK fellers, here is the secret to .22 bullets in a 6mm barrel. You get real close to the dirt bank. We have very tall, steep side berms.I wait till no one else is on the range. The other trick, for .262 necks. is to expand and turn at .22 caliber, leaving a little to clean up at 6mm. You end up with very straight brass with nice even cuts on the shoulders. I have also done the same thing without a bullet using Bullseye and a 3/4" square of paper toweling stuffed into the neck. Using the usual expanders, it seems to be pretty much impossible to keep necks straight when expanding from under .22 caliber to 6mm. Either of the above methods solves the problem. I have to cut onto the shoulder to get the fit that I want, and I don't like the look of an uneven cut in this area.
 
Kav.
The Old Guy says 50-60 reloads.
I still shoot them. :eek:
Prolly up to 65-70 relaods.
That is for a custom 6PPC. :)
 
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Joe,
Check your PM. I have photos from the Shamrock for you.
Don
 
Zippy

Do not dothis in a barrel that is still "good".

Now, it might not hurt a thing.But, it sure as heck isn't going to help anything.

Many of us do a lot of these things, forgetting that many do not have a dozen or more old barrels laying around.

I a year or so, you will have a barrel to do this in, if you are so inclined........jackie
 
Hi Jackie.
Thanks.
Yea in a year or so. I should have a used barrel. Especially shooting with Joe K. and the crowd up here.
I think, I am set for brass for this year.
As far as fireforming.
The Hornady dies sound good.
Joe's procedure sounds good.
The Jackie/JD Mock procedure sounds good. Especially, since I have a lot of .223 bullets. I like the fact about having the shoulder at proper angle for the cut.
Still thinking about it all. Turning and fireforming is something to do when the snow is here.....:)
 
Kroop,

perhaps the reason for your confusion stems from the fact that you shoot a PPC. With a PPC chambered by a BR 'Smith and using Hoehn brass there simply IS NO heartache period because all the parameters are pre-set..... crush-fit is automatic, just load and shoot. Any barrel, any time, anywhere and using any of the "favored methods."

But for anything else on the planet there must be some figurage given to fittage.

al
 
Fliriting with the Grim Reaper

Joe Krupa said:
Using other than 133 or 322 or some powder other than that meant to be shot in a PPC is somewhat concerning to me. I know of a guy who was using VV 130 to form his cases and was planning on switching to 133 for the then-formed case to be shot in the match. Unfortunately, he forgot to switch the powder bottles and he shot a full case full of 130 in the match. The gun blew up and he suffered some significant facial damage. Pistol powder in a PPC scares me. And a .22 bullet tumbling down a 6mm barrel leaves one to wonder where it could possibly go.
Click to expand...


Joe,

I would like to commend you for bringing up questionable fireforming techniques on this forum.

I cringe when I hear how some BR shooters are fireforming their cases. I fear for their safety. I fear for my safety if I’m in the vicinity where some of this nonsense is taking place. It’s as if some of these shooters take reloading manual instructions, and do the exact opposite.

One shooter gave me the details of his procedure: 22 bullet, loaded backwards (!) in a 6mm barrel, with pistol powder – all done on a range where the backstop is 150 yards away.

When I inquired what would happen if the bullet canted after firing and stuck in the barrel, and another shot were subsequently fired, he looked at me as if I were crazy…I guess the guy didn’t know that he didn’t know.



Joe Krupa said:
This system is simple and accomplishes three things necessary with shooting competitively: case forming, breaking in a barrel and fouling the barrel before a record match.
Click to expand...

I would add one other benefit to this procedure: a good time to concentrate on refining gun handling technique without the distractions of condition reading.

Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
 
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I can assure you that 22 bullets fired in a 6 barrel are going sideways
within the first 6 yards. They come out elongated, bent and smaller in diameter. Lead is extruded from the nose and the barrel is well plated
in copper according to my Hawkeye. This makes it a grand candidate
to be sawn in half lengthwise, for future solvent studies.
This should not be allowed at any public range and certainly not with any bystanders present. A large piece of cardboard in front of 20 tons of
topsoil has proven this to me. Having a buffer zone of nearly a mile in all
directions is also an asset.
I have tried many methods to eliminate the donut as I feel the thick
area inside and at the base of the neck contributes to concentricity problems.
as the brass has a memory. Fireforming with a 22 in a 6 barrel and then reaming before turning has proven one thing to me, the donut will return.
what was shoulder is now neck. Ream the donut away, size it and shoot it
a few times and you can ream the donut away again. The reamed neck
does fit the mandril much better and necks turn far more uniformly
 
Much ado about nothing.

The procedure is very straight forward. Load a .22 bullet in the .220 case with rifle powder suitable for the PPC i.e. H322, N133, 2015, H4198, etc. Load a stiff load and fire the bullet through an old 6PPC barrel. Fire it directly into the ground. Voilla....a straight case with proper shoulder ready for neck turning. I have shot hundreds without any incident. What scares me is all of the Cream of Wheat, oatmeal, pistol powder, and kapock. Good shooting...James
 
James

I have been doing this for a while, as you say, it is simple and the results are excellent.

Perhaps here is the problem. As in many things in Benchrest, we sometimes forget that some of us have facilities that make doing some of the things we do easy. We sometimes recommend our methods, without taking into account that the majority of shooters might not have the same access to facilities that we do.

It is sort of like load data. Anybody who has ever been to a Benchrest Match is well aware that we shoot at pressures that are not considered normal. Even the "lighter" loads shot are well above what any loading manual would recommend.So, we have ceased to say such things in public.

I happen to be fortunate that I am a member of a rather exclusive Gun Club, with a closed membership. Often, we have the entire range to ourselves. If you are the only one there, shooting into the dirt bothers nobody but the earth worms.

I doubt there is a "public" range to be found that would allow this.

I can understand many of the concerns shown for some of the things that we do. Perhaps this sort of thing should not be for public consumption.

Of course, some of this is not new. I can remember 40 years ago reading in Guns and Ammo about blowing out cases in Ackley Improved Chambers with pistol powder and cream of wheat........jackie
 
Jackie, you are correct.

I live in rural North Louisiana and can always find a place to fireform brass. For those who have to shoot on a public range at 100 yards or more, the firing of a .22 bullet in a 6mm barrel may not be advisable. I have shot some at 50 yards however, and can keep them in about 2 ft. group. Good shooting ...James
 
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