Fireforming a 30BR

Al

Al Nyhus said:
Greg, that's one of the reasons that the late Stan Ware had his reamers done with no throats. Stan throated in a seperate operation so as to have control over that critical part of the chamber. Done as a seperate operation, throat length could be optimized for the bullet being used. Plus, it allowed experimentation with different throat diameters.

For the .30's, Stan's collection of throating reamers were .3083, .3084, .3085, .3086, .3087 and .3088 .....measured, not assumed ;). At different times, we tried all of the diameters in our 30 WareWolfs, 30BR's, 30BRX and 30 WolfPups.

A chamber length checker plug as Russ Stiner posted is a must have. Randy's observations on the 45 degree angle is spot on.

Good shootin'. :) -Al
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That would have saved me a lot of time, grief, aggravation and cost! So much for the maker's, of this 30BR reamer, quality control. No excuse for what he delivered me. Never went back to him.
 
Pete Wass said:
Which gave the best results? Thanks, Pete
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Pete, testing the 30BR's at Stan's private range: aka the 'Westbrook Warehouse' ;) during what we called 'Happy Hour'....that hour before sunset when conditions just lay down....we couldn't see any difference at 100 yds. At 200, groups with the .3087's and .3088's were definitely larger.

We back to backed this quite a few time with multiple Lilja 3 groove 17's, Kreiger 17's, Rock non-5R 17's and at least one Kostyshyn 4 groove 17. Bullets used were my Dakota B1's 117's and 125's (.3083/.3085 p.r.) and BIB 118's. The trend remained constant even as the exact mix of barrels and components changed. Guns used were Stan's HV Panda, my HV Panda, LV Panda and LV RFD actioned 'Red Hammer' guns. We didn't test the HBR guns but did screw the HBR barrels from our HBR Kodiaks on the Pandas and tested them in that way.

We used 200 yd. at the 'Westbrook Warehouse' to test neck clearance also.

Good times, lots of work but it payed off. Stan was very meticulous in everything and an excellent tester. Here's a pic of Stan inside the 'Westbrook Warehouse' before we began testing one evening along with a 5 shot group I fired at 200 with my Panda HV gun testing that same evening.

GmXTBf9l.jpg


7UffStNl.jpg
 
Al Nyhus said:
Pete, testing the 30BR's at Stan's private range: aka the 'Westbrook Warehouse' ;) during what we called 'Happy Hour'....that hour before sunset when conditions just lay down....we couldn't see any difference at 100 yds. At 200, groups with the .3087's and .3088's were definitely larger.

We back to backed this quite a few time with multiple Lilja 3 groove 17's, Kreiger 17's, Rock non-5R 17's and at least one Kostyshyn 4 groove 17. Bullets used were my Dakota B1's 117's and 125's (.3083/.3085 p.r.) and BIB 118's. The trend remained constant even as the exact mix of barrels and components changed. Guns used were Stan's HV Panda, my HV Panda, LV Panda and LV RFD actioned 'Red Hammer' guns. We didn't test the HBR guns but did screw the HBR barrels from our HBR Kodiaks on the Pandas and tested them in that way.

We used 200 yd. at the 'Westbrook Warehouse' to test neck clearance also.

Good times, lots of work but it payed off. Stan was very meticulous in everything and an excellent tester. Here's a pic of Stan inside the 'Westbrook Warehouse' before we began testing one evening along with a 5 shot group I fired at 200 with my Panda HV gun testing that same evening.

GmXTBf9l.jpg


7UffStNl.jpg
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:cool: Thank you, Al! Great pic of Stan.:D

For, I cannot recall how long now, but certainly since the wide variety of [so called] 30BR Robinette reamers began appearing (mis-spelled too:p), I have advised, both via phone conversations(s) and I-net forums, that, for ultimate precision, KNOWING both the actual chamber OAL and neck diameter are imperative. The 30 BR is a "wild-cat" cartridge . . . well, ok, only a domesticat . . . never believe a reamer print. :eek:RG
 
Thanks Al

Good info and great picture of Stan. Thanks for putting it up for us to see. I think of Stan every so often.

Pete
 
results in fireforming from 6BR Lapua Brass to 30BR directly in 30BR chamber

I thought I would post results of my fireforming experiment. Measured chamber length and trimmed back new Lapua 6BR brass enought to avoid brass neck dammage to chamber when fireforming. Loaded 10gr. Unique + COW + topping the case with lead bullet lub. Fired them and results were perfectly concentric expanded neck 30BR brass. Ran Forster .308" inside neck reamer with Forster hand trimmer (so .308" outside neck turner pilot would fit in), then outside neck trimmed down to .010" using Hornady neck trimmer. Sized Necks with Custom Lee Collet Sizer I had made by Lee with 2 fired brass. Loaded 118gr. FBHP bullets on top of H4198. Accuracy is amazing. I have yet to find the bullet seating sweet spot and should be ready for competition as soon as these Covid19 restrictions are lifted. I won't be using Expander dies anymore. I noticed brass sometimes doesn't come out straight and even after 10-15 firings doesn't straighten out. Fireforming 6BR directly to 30BR is, to me , the way to go. I respect if some guys prefer expanding with expanding dies but don't have to agree.
Appreciate everyone's input on this topic.
Dan
 
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danyboy said:
......I noticed brass sometimes doesn't come out straight and even after 10-15 firings doesn't straighten out. .........
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You've noticed something very important. That you get ONE (1) chance, ONE (1) shot, pardon the pun to make straight cases from the soft, malleable brass. Upon being hammered the brass work hardens, it's physics. Once it's work hardened you can no longer make it conform. (Unless you're qualified and willing to anneal back to factory spec).

"You can't straighten a bent wire"
 
danyboy said:
I thought I would post results of my fireforming experiment. Measured chamber length and trimmed back new Lapua 6BR brass enought to avoid brass neck dammage to chamber when fireforming. Loaded 10gr. Unique + COW + topping the case with lead bullet lub. Fired them and results were perfectly concentric expanded neck 30BR brass. Ran Forster .308" inside neck reamer with Forster hand trimmer (so .308" outside neck turner pilot would fit in), then outside neck trimmed down to .010" using Hornady neck trimmer. Sized Necks with Custom Lee Collet Sizer I had made by Lee with 2 fired brass. Loaded 118gr. FBHP bullets on top of H4198. Accuracy is amazing. I have yet to find the bullet seating sweet spot and should be ready for competition as soon as these Covid19 restrictions are lifted. I won't be using Expander dies anymore. I noticed brass sometimes doesn't come out straight and even after 10-15 firings doesn't straighten out. Fireforming 6BR directly to 30BR is, to me , the way to go. I respect if some guys prefer expanding with expanding dies but don't have to agree.
Appreciate everyone's input on this topic.
Dan
Click to expand...

My method is similar.....Only I use a regular 6BR barrel with the neck remed out to .330. When I fire full house 6BR round in this barrel, out comes a perfectly formed non neck turned 30BR case.

One thing about this method. The case retains much of the original 1.560 length of the Lapua 6BR. So, I had a reamer ground to a trim to length of 1.545.

It is on file at Pacific Tool as the 30 BR Schmidt.
 
[QUOTE TRY PLAY DOUGH.
=danyboy;844367]I thought I would post results of my fireforming experiment. Measured chamber length and trimmed back new Lapua 6BR brass enought to avoid brass neck dammage to chamber when fireforming. Loaded 10gr. Unique + COW + topping the case with lead bullet lub. Fired them and results were perfectly concentric expanded neck 30BR brass. Ran Forster .308" inside neck reamer with Forster hand trimmer (so .308" outside neck turner pilot would fit in), then outside neck trimmed down to .010" using Hornady neck trimmer. Sized Necks with Custom Lee Collet Sizer I had made by Lee with 2 fired brass. Loaded 118gr. FBHP bullets on top of H4198. Accuracy is amazing. I have yet to find the bullet seating sweet spot and should be ready for competition as soon as these Covid19 restrictions are lifted. I won't be using Expander dies anymore. I noticed brass sometimes doesn't come out straight and even after 10-15 firings doesn't straighten out. Fireforming 6BR directly to 30BR is, to me , the way to go. I respect if some guys prefer expanding with expanding dies but don't have to agree.
Appreciate everyone's input on this topic.
Dan[/QUOTE]
 
Hard bolt lift now

Spent time reading about hard bolt lift on this forum. Something new to me came up : ring dies . With my 6 BR and it’s Custom made Lee Collet Die, I never experienced hard bolt lifts till about after using brass 25 times. With Custom made Lee Collet 30 BR Die, totally different story. After 3 shots, bolt is getting harder to lift, even chambers harder much faster than with 6 BR.
These ring dies make a lot of sens as they seem to size the base of the brass and supposedly solve this hard bolt lift issue.
Question is where can one get these ring dies ?
 
try base sizing with a 308 win small base die.
if that works look for a sizing die that is the same or close at the base
 
Straighten a bent wire.

alinwa said:
you've noticed something very important. That you get one (1) chance, one (1) shot, pardon the pun to make straight cases from the soft, malleable brass. Upon being hammered the brass work hardens, it's physics. Once it's work hardened you can no longer make it conform. (unless you're qualified and willing to anneal back to factory spec).

"you can't straighten a bent wire"
Click to expand...
for many yrs my dad straighten bailing wire with a fence strecher after he fed a bale a hay to cows.
 
danyboy said:
Good idea, got one, tried it out and works perfect. Thanks
Click to expand...

Glad it worked for you, sir.

Honestly, though....if you're getting hard bolt lift after just a couple of firings on a 30BR, my suggestion is to look at the back end of the chamber or get a die that's bit more aggressive on sizing the back end. I've seen a couple instances where the diameter of the body/shoulder junction was to blame. That's a bit unusual with the BR case but not completely unheard of. Most don't look there for the issue, though.

A good way to check this is to take a case that's giving you a sticky bolt and stress relieve the case at the body/shoulder area (ie: 'anneal' though that's not really what we're doing ;)). Then size it normally including using the 45 ACP die for the base. Now fire it and see how many firings it takes to get 'sticky', using your normal sizing set up w/o using the 45ACP die on the base. If it gets 'sticky' after the same amount of firings as before....you know it's the base giving you gas. If you can go more firings before it gets 'sticky', you know the front end is in play, as well.

Having a big back end on these chambers is never a bad thing, though.

For what it's worth.... Al
 
Al Nyhus said:
No, it's not.

You might want to read Danny's reply, though......
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Will never work. 45 acp is .4762, fired 30BR case base is .470. Perfect size would be 8 x 75 rimmed or 9 x 63 or 9.3 x 74R or 9.5 x57 Mannlicher Schoenaver which all are .4685. Got none of them but working on it.
 
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Al Nyhus said:
Glad it worked for you, sir.

Honestly, though....if you're getting hard bolt lift after just a couple of firings on a 30BR, my suggestion is to look at the back end of the chamber or get a die that's bit more aggressive on sizing the back end. I've seen a couple instances where the diameter of the body/shoulder junction was to blame. That's a bit unusual with the BR case but not completely unheard of. Most don't look there for the issue, though.

A good way to check this is to take a case that's giving you a sticky bolt and stress relieve the case at the body/shoulder area (ie: 'anneal' though that's not really what we're doing ;)). Then size it normally including using the 45 ACP die for the base. Now fire it and see how many firings it takes to get 'sticky', using your normal sizing set up w/o using the 45ACP die on the base. If it gets 'sticky' after the same amount of firings as before....you know it's the base giving you gas. If you can go more firings before it gets 'sticky', you know the front end is in play, as well.

Having a big back end on these chambers is never a bad thing, though.

For what it's worth.... Al
Click to expand...
Al,
I’m using a custom made Lee Collet Die and a Redding Body Die(only every 3-4 firings for the Body Die).
 
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