Feedback From The Tunnel

G

Gene Beggs

Active member
Experienced benchresters will tell you that keeping the rifle in tune throughout the day as atmospheric conditions change is the biggest challenge the short-range group shooter faces. So, just what is it that makes the rifle go out of tune? Simple! The bullets begin to exit the muzzle at the wrong time. (usually too soon) Yep, it's that simple.

Let's say you have the rifle in perfect tune during the first match of the morning. As the day progresses temp steadily increases and by noon the rifle acts like it's broke! You say to yourself, 'Well, I guess I just missed a condition.' Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you just didn't make changes in the tune to compensate for the increase in temp. The air thinned out due to the increase in temp, bullets met with less atmospheric resistance as they accelerated down the bore and began to exit before the muzzle reached it's sweet spot just before the top of its swing.

Some of you are probably thinking, "Aw, horse manure Beggs, it can't be that simple." If you are one of those, don't read any further because I can't help you, but if you're one that enjoys the study of extreme rifle accuracy and desires to improve your standings in matches, listen up!

The question is; how do you compensate? Do you go up or down on the powder charge? If you have a tuner, do you go in or out? How much? Change seating depth? How 'bout changing powder and/or bullets? Curse and sling things all over the place? Bring out your spare rifle? Change scopes? Give up and go home? I assure you that during the last thirty years, I've tried all that and eventually learned what works and what doesn't. Once you get the rifle in tune during the first match of the morning, you can KEEP it in tune throughout the day with one or the other of the following methods: (But don't try to mix them up, you'll get hopelessly lost.)

1. Adjust the powder charge.

2. Make a tuner adjustment.


Among the top shooters there are two camps;

1. Those who tune ONLY with the powder charge.

2. Those (very few) that have learned to use a tuner and make adjustments ONLY with the tuner.


Keep in mind that here we are talking about short range group shooting at 100 and 200 yards with the 6PPC using N133, H322, LT32 etc., which is the only shooting discipline I know anything about.

Lets say you have a good shooting barrel and bullets that you know are accurate. Your favorite load is 30 grains of N133 and you have your bullets seated where you know they shoot. You go to the line and fire a fouler and a three shot test group. The group prints two bullet holes of vertical. Bummer, the rifle is completely out of tune. If you tune with the powder charge, go either up or down .6 grains and you will be real close. The sweet spots in the barrel's vibration pattern repeat at 1.2 grain (120 fps) intervals. Since 30 grains of N133 is right at the top of the upper tune window, I would prefer to go down .6 but,,,,aw 'ell, I'm not gonna try to tell you how to tune with the powder. Ask Tony Boyer, Charles Huckeba, Gene Bukys, Mike Conry, Jack Neary, Wayne Campbell etc., that's how they do it. Me? I prefer to use a tuner. I can make quick and easy adjustments at the line to compensate for changes in atmospheric conditions and never have to pull bullets and reduce the charge on rounds that are too hot.

I can just hear it now, moans in the background saying, "Oh man, here we go again,, tuners!" But wait! We have made lots of progress in recent years and I'm quite sure the centerfire benchrest community is in for a big awakening. Stay tuned!


Later and good shootin'!

Gene Beggs



02-06-18 Continuing,,,,

Without a doubt, the biggest question on everyone's mind is how do you keep the rifle in tune with a tuner once the in-tune position is found. Things will make a lot more sense once you understand how the barrel vibrates and how moving the tuner fore and aft raises and lowers the vibration frequency. Do not be discouraged by charts, animations and complicated technical data describing various vibration modes etc. It's not that complicated and I'll tell you how to demonstrate it.

Take a cleaning rod, hold it by the handle and extend it horizontally. Now take the heel of your other hand or a small mallet and strike the the handle as if you were trying to drive the rod into something. You will notice that the rod humps up in the middle and the tip flips downward setting up a vibration pattern that makes the tip wave up and down. That's exactly what happens to your rifle barrel. Each barrel has its own vibration characteristics and frequency due to the length, diameter, profile etc., and that's fixed, but if we install a weight that can be moved fore and aft we can vary the vibration frequency so bullet exit occurs just at the right moment as the muzzle approaches the top of its upward swing.

To be continued,
 
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This is good stuff...

...for a new shooter like me trying to break in to SR group shooting. Thank you sir.
 
Gene,

Look foward to your comments. Being one of the few that uses a tuner only and not powder this should be a good thread.
A note to all: Lets keep this civil and not a P contest.

Richard
 
Lets see,

How many years has it been since I gave up on CF tuners simply because there were no answers or simple method to know where one was at? I hope you will make all my dreams come true Gene :).

Pete
 
Gene Beggs said:
Experienced benchresters will tell you that keeping the rifle in tune throughout the day as atmospheric conditions change is the biggest challenge the short-range group shooter faces. So, just what is it that makes the rifle go out of tune? Simple! The bullets begin to exit the muzzle at the wrong time. (usually too soon) Yep, it's that simple.

Let's say you have the rifle in perfect tune during the first match of the morning. As the day progresses temp steadily increases 20 degrees and by noon the rifle acts like it's broke! You say to yourself, 'Well, I guess I just missed a condition.' Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you just didn't make changes in the tune to compensate for the increase in temp. The air thinned out due to the increase in temp, bullets met with less atmospheric resistance as they accelerated down the bore and began to exit before the muzzle reached it's sweet spot just before the top of its swing. Say what? Yep, that's all there is to it.

Some of you are probably thinking, "Aw, horse manure Beggs, it can't be that simple." So, if you are one of those, don't read any further because I can't help you, but if you're one of those that enjoys the study of extreme rifle accuracy and desires to improve your standings in matches, listen up!

The question is obviously, "How do you compensate? Do you go up or down on the powder charge? If you have a tuner, do you go in or out? How much? Do you change seating depth? How 'bout changing powder and/or bullets? Curse and sling things all over the place? Bring out your spare rifle? Change scopes? Give up and go home?

I assure you that during the last thirty years, I've tried all that and eventually learned what works and what doesn't. Once you get the rifle in tune during the first match of the morning, you can KEEP it in tune throughout the day with one or the other of the following: (But don't try to mix them up; you'll get hopelessly lost.)

1. Adjust the powder charge.
2. Make an adjustment to the tuner.

Among the top shooters there are two camps;

1. Those who tune ONLY with the powder charge.
2. Those (very few) that have learned to use a tuner and make adjustments ONLY with the tuner.


Keep in mind that here we are talking about short range group shooting at 100 and 200 yards with the 6PPC using N133, H322, LT32 etc., which is the only shooting discipline I know anything about.

Lets say you have a good shooting barrel and bullets that you know are accurate. Your favorite load is 30 grains of N133 and you have your bullets seated where you know they shoot. You go to the line and fire a fouler and a three shot test group. The group prints two bullet holes of vertical. Bummer! The rifle is 180 degrees out of tune. If you tune with the powder charge, go either up or down .6 grains and you will be real close. The sweet spots in the barrel's vibration pattern repeat at 1.2 grain (120 fps) intervals. Since 30 grains of N133 is right at the top of the upper tune window, I would prefer to go down .6 but,,,,aw 'ell, I'm not gonna try to tell you how to tune with the powder. Ask Tony Boyer,Charles Huckeba, Gene Bukys, Mike Conry, Jack Neary etc. That's how they do it. Me? I prefer to tune with a modern, well built, simple tuner. I can make quick and easy adjustments at the line to compensate for changes in atmospheric conditions, I never have to pull bullets and reduce the charge on rounds that are hopelessly too hot for conditions.

I can just hear it now, the moans in the background saying, "Oh man, here we go again,, tuners!" Yep TUNERS!

One tuner expert says you should go 'out' as temp increases, another says no, you should go 'in.' One says tuner weight must extend beyond the muzzle while another says no it should all be behind the muzzle. Some say tuner weight is critical and determines how far it must be moved. Some use 32 tpi, others insist on 28 and some use 40 tpi. It's all so damn confusing! Who you gonna' believe? I'll try to answer all of these questions and more in my next post. In the meantime, be thinking about all this stuff and I'll look forward to seeing you at the Cactus in Phoenix.

Later and good shootin'!

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

Gene, thank you for doing this. I love talking about tuners but frankly, it does get tiring, countering all of the many, many misconceptions about how to use a tuner. I hope no one takes that the wrong way, as I'm always willing to help. It's mostly on the various forums where I run into keyboard shooters that make claims that just are not in step with anything I've seen, IME. Consequently and as you alluded to, there remains too much confusion. Tuners are plain easy to use. I haven't shot a match without one since 2007 or 8 and I don't see that happening any time soon, again.

I know that from our previous discussions on this subject, that you and I are in complete, or very near it, agreement about what does and doesn't work. Yes, there are subtle differences with tuner designs, thread pitches, weight, etc, but every tuner I've ever tested works on the same principle and very similarly.

I look very forward to keeping up with your thread. --Mike
 
Bolstering Mr Beggs qualifications, once at Kelbly’s Gene and I were shooting adjacent benches, coming off the line Gene said to me “Jerry that is the best group I’ve seen you shoot today and the one beside it was amazing Too!!”.

Got it now. Tuners...in and out at the same time. In 2005, I was probably the first, in CF/group Benchrest to shoot all the biggies using tuners. I say “tunerS” because at that time IBS only. allowed tuners that did not exceed the dimensions of a HV barrel profile. Jim Borden and I came up with an IBS tuner that was 6.5” long. It worked, but a simple adjustment of it might move the POI 1”....

Tuners, gotta’ remember that. I still have the tuners “Fudd” Hamilton made for me in January 2005.

Love ya Gene.
.
 
I would have to agree

that tuners basically all work the same way. But those subtle differences in design can sure make a difference on how you use whatever design that you have. Some tuners tune easier than others, some are more sensative (sp) to changing conditions than others. Thread pitch for the most part is a non issue except for convenience of setting values. You really need to just shoot whatever design you have and REALLY LEARN what it's telling you. In other words, trigger time and lots of it.
I tell guys coming into the shop and wanting a tuner a really simple question. Are you willing to put in the time to learn what to do with it? A tuner can be your best friend or your worst enemy. It depends on you.
Are tuners simple to run? Absolutley!! I can teach you how to run one in about 30 min. But thats not the whole story. You need to take that 30 min of schooling and apply that under totally different conditions and learn what the tuner is telling you.
I tell the guys the rifle is speaking to you, (on the target)you just have to learn what it's saying.

Looking foward to Gene's comments. I always learn something from Gene, not a nicer guy out there!!

Richard
 
there is a alot

in difference threading a bbl .625X24 and threading a typical tuner which is around .875 to .935 dia and a thread of 32 tpi or therebouts. Not only does the larger dia help, but the pitch dia is alot shallower on a 32 thread.

I have seen bbl's open up when threading for brakes and suppressors but have never seen that with the tuners most guys run.

Richard
 
glp said:
Frank Green put this youtube video up in another thread recently. Threading the muzzle end on button rifled barrels often opened them up measurably. Does that affect accuracy? Prolly would be something you do not want to chance imo.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?91536-Barrels/page7
Click to expand...

I've seen the video but I've put a bunch of tuners on and never had the first problem. In fact, the barrel I have on my 30 is quite possibly the best barrel I've ever had and is button rifled. IF, and that's a big if..there is any consequence to threading the muzzle appropriately for a tuner, it's tiny and is completely washed away in the noise. I'm not referring to the 5/8 -24 he mentions in the video, but along the lines of .875-.950". In the video, the barrels he tested did not grow measurably when threaded 3/4-28.

I'm more than enough convinced that tuners are worth their weight in gold in this sport. I'll take my chances. Perhaps off topic slightly, but has anyone measured how much the bore grows under the pressure of being fired?
 
My Plan

Hey guys. I can see there is still great interest in tuners. I hope I haven't bit off more than I can chew here but I'll do my best to clear up some misconceptions and convince others to pursue this fascinating and pretty well wide open chapter in extreme rifle accuracy. My plan is to continue adding to post number 1 in this thread. I think that will be easier for everyone to keep up with.

Wish me luck

Gene Beggs
 
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Ok, Gene, thanks for chiming back in. We may not agree 100% on all of the details, but we're close and it really doesn't matter. We do agree on the gist of things and all that matters is the ability to easily and repeatably make needed adjustments to it. As you've pointed out, it's very easy to use a tuner. It's so much simpler than people make it out to be.

I've said this about a thousand times and I'll say it again...By far, the most common mistake people make with a tuner is not moving it the wrong way, but moving it too far.

Fact is, in short range BR, if you move the tuner a mark in the wrong direction, the group on the sighter gets bigger. Simply take it back the other way a mark.

IME, the biggest learning aspect is just correlating group size and shape to how far to move the tuner. It comes easy, though.

I'll shut up for now. Later, I'll post a photo posted on this site by someone on an old tuner thread. I have no idea who's tuner he was using but it's classic, to the point of being predictable...So much so, that I can look at the target and tell how far the tuner should be moved...The best part is, everyone should be able to clearly see the same thing.
 
mwezell said:
Ok, Gene, thanks for chiming back in. We may not agree 100% on all of the details, but we're close and it really doesn't matter. We do agree on the gist of things and all that matters is the ability to easily and repeatably make needed adjustments to it. As you've pointed out, it's very easy to use a tuner. It's so much simpler than people make it out to be.

I've said this about a thousand times and I'll say it again...By far, the most common mistake people make with a tuner is not moving it the wrong way, but moving it too far.

Fact is, in short range BR, if you move the tuner a mark in the wrong direction, the group on the sighter gets bigger. Simply take it back the other way a mark.

IME, the biggest learning aspect is just correlating group size and shape to how far to move the tuner. It comes easy, though.

I'll shut up for now. Later, I'll post a photo posted on this site by someone on an old tuner thread. I have no idea who's tuner he was using but it's classic, to the point of being predictable...So much so, that I can look at the target and tell how far the tuner should be moved...The best part is, everyone should be able to clearly see the same thing.
Click to expand...


Mike, I have you to thank for convincing me that I was making way too big of adjustments. That was a real eye opener. Tuners are fascinating and like you, I wouldn't dream of having a benchrest rifle without one.
Sure wish you could come out and shoot with me in the tunnel. It's warm and cozy on a cold winter day which we are forecast to have tomorrow.

If I say anything in my post you disagree with please speak up. I've learned to listen carefully to what you say.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
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Gene Beggs said:
Mike, I have you to thank for convincing me that I was making way too big of adjustments. That was a real eye opener. Right up there with the discovery that my tuners, being mounted behind the muzzle, work opposite from those that extend beyond the muzzle. It's no big deal either way as long as you know what it does. Like Richard Brensing says,, You just have to put in the trigger time". They are fascinating and like you, I wouldn't dream of having a benchrest rifle without one.
Sure wish you could come out and shoot with me in the tunnel. It's warm and cozy on a cold winter day which we are forecast to have tomorrow.

If I say anything in my post you disagree with please speak up. I've learned to listen carefully to what you say.

Later,

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

Thank you Gene!
I think we're much better off not debating what amount to semantics when it comes to using a tuner.

What's important is what we're covering and it's going well.

I don't want to side track this thread with something that matters little, in the big scheme of things.

We need more of what we have right here and now.

I'm often too opinionated and made a resolution to not argue over little things on forums at new years. I see no reason to argue with anything you've said.
 
I have played with tuners some, several designs. One thing that I would like to mention is that sometimes we get wrapped up in theory and that can distract us from the simple direct stuff. First of all the most basic information is ...tuners work. The second thing is that it is easy to confuse yourself trying to reconcile theories when all that is really required is some trial and error testing combined with careful note taking. If you rifle goes out of tune as the day gets warmer, and you find tune by turning the tuner one direction better than if you try going the other, then IMO you have your answer. It sort of reminds me of some advice an old friend gave me about sales. He said that if you know that you are talking to the decision maker in the family, and you have clearly described the product's advantages, ask for the sale, and shut up, because after that, the first one to speak looses. In other words, don't talk past the sale. In this case I think that once you are confident in your "when I do this that happens", your cause and effect, rather than try to make that fit some theory, leave it at that. After all you have solved your problem and you have other things that need your attention, like wind flags.
 
Tuners

After reading what Mike said previously about tuners I had this made up (see pic) to remind me to adjust small.
I have just started using the Bukys tuner this season after having them sit in the cupboard for roughly 4 yrs.

So far so good but have plenty to learn, especially when and how to adjust.

I guess I was lucky as I didn't really touch my load of N133 for 3/4 of the 2 gun and didn't adjust the tuner either. Barrel was a Shilen @ 5lb4oz + tuner on a Bat DS Action

I followed Gene's instructions and then went one number at a time til I reached 7 and groups started to open up. I settled on setting at No.3 from what the testing showed and locked it down

So I will see how it goes as the tuner is on all year regardless so I can give it a fair test.

I will follow this thread and hopefully learn some more here and at the range.

Thanks
Michael
 

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Gene, you lost me on

your last thread. What do you mean by the tuners working opposite?
From my experience you can make any tuner work opposite just by tuning on the opposite of the node. To make it simple I just look at a sine wave. I think you agree the best groups are shot at the null point but can tune either side of the wave to get there.
What am I missing here Gene.

Richard
 
Richard said:
your last thread. What do you mean by the tuners working opposite?
From my experience you can make any tuner work opposite just by tuning on the opposite of the node. To make it simple I just look at a sine wave. I think you agree the best groups are shot at the null point but can tune either side of the wave to get there.
What am I missing here Gene.

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard maybe it would have been better if I had never mentioned what I discovered with a piano tuner three or four years ago. I'm also sorry I ever mentioned the term 'density altitude.' It just confuses people. You will notice I have quit using the term and now I just say, 'As temp increases and air thins out." But back to your question about some tuners working backwards from others.

Assume your rifle is right in tune and you make a note of the tuner position and temperature. As the day warms up and air thins out, the bullets encounter less atmospheric drag as they accelerate down the bore and begin to exit the muzzle early. In order to keep the bullets exiting at exactly the right point we must increase the vibration frequency of the barrel slightly. With a tuner that extends beyond the muzzle that means turning the tuner 'in' toward the breach which in effect shortens the length of the barrel thereby 'increasing' the vibration frequency. With my tuner and any other that mounts completely behind the muzzle, moving the weight toward the center of the barrel reduces vibration frequency; moving it toward the muzzle, increases it.

Don't worry, I didn't understand it either and it did not become clear to me which way to go with my tuner until I made the discovery with the piano tuner. Rather than think of it as 'out' and 'in' it would be better if we all used the term 'increase' or 'decrease' vibration frequency. By now, the manufacturers all know which way their tuner goes to 'raise' vibration frequency depending on the design. Let's use a simple scenario to illustrate how this works;

Lets say we get our rifle right in tune during the ten minute warm up and make a note of the temp and tuner position. We started out with the tuner set to 'zero'. That didn't look good; big group in dead calm conditions with about two bullet holes of vertical. Since the tuners are all graduated in one thousandth increments we know it will take about four thousandths (4 marks) one way or the other to bring the rifle in tune. So as a matter of habit, lets always start by going 'out' one mark at a time shooting two to three shot test groups at each mark slowly creeping up on the sweet spot. As we gain more experience, we can tell by the test group how many marks to go but for now it's best to make adjustments of only 1 mark at a time. So,,, with the tuner set at 4 marks out from 'zero' the rifle shoots dots! Temp is 65 degrees, tuner 4 marks out from center and noted. Now we are ready to go to the record and get serious about winning this match. Alright!

Let's say the day is typical of what we encounter at Midland and Phoenix; an increase of about 20 degrees from match one of the morning until noon. By mid afternoon, it may be as much as 25 degrees warmer. As the air warms up it thins out and the bullets are exiting the muzzle a bit early. We need to speed the barrel up slightly to keep bullet exit at the right spot. I'll turn my tuner 'out' about 1 mark for each 5 degree increase in temp watching the test group on the sighter to verify.

Richard, I realize this is way too elementary for you but I wrote it that way for the benefit of newcomers just starting out with tuners.

Mike Ezell (I love the guy) probably has the best idea by saying , "Move the tuner 1 mark in one direction or the other, if the group gets bigger, you went the wrong way, go back where you were and move it 1 mark the other way." Mike, I hope I said that right. I'm getting tired and need to take a break. Hope this helps.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
Richard maybe it would have been better if I had never mentioned what I discovered with a piano tuner three or four years ago. I'm also sorry I ever mentioned the term 'density altitude.' It just confuses people. You will notice I have quit using the term and now I just say, 'As temp increases and air thins out." But back to your question about some tuners working backwards from others.

Assume your rifle is right in tune and you make a note of the tuner position and temperature. As the day warms up and air thins out, the bullets encounter less atmospheric drag as they accelerate down the bore and begin to exit the muzzle early. In order to keep the bullets exiting at exactly the right point we must increase the vibration frequency of the barrel slightly. With a tuner that extends beyond the muzzle that means turning the tuner 'in' toward the breach which in effect shortens the length of the barrel thereby 'increasing' the vibration frequency. With my tuner and any other that mounts completely behind the muzzle, moving the weight toward the center of the barrel reduces vibration frequency; moving it toward the muzzle, increases it.

Don't worry, I didn't understand it either and it did not become clear to me which way to go with my tuner until I made the discovery with the piano tuner. Rather than think of it as 'out' and 'in' it would be better if we all used the term 'increase' or 'decrease' vibration frequency. By now, the manufacturers all know which way their tuner goes to 'raise' vibration frequency depending on the design. Let's use a simple scenario to illustrate how this works;

Lets say we get our rifle right in tune during the ten minute warm up and make a note of the temp and tuner position. We started out with the tuner set to 'zero'. That didn't look good; big group in dead calm conditions with about two bullet holes of vertical. Since the tuners are all graduated in one thousandth increments we know it will take about four thousandths (4 marks) one way or the other to bring the rifle in tune. So as a matter of habit, lets always start by going 'out' one mark at a time shooting two to three shot test groups at each mark slowly creeping up on the sweet spot. As we gain more experience, we can tell by the test group how many marks to go but for now it's best to make adjustments of only 1 mark at a time. So,,, with the tuner set at 4 marks out from 'zero' the rifle shoots dots! Temp is 65 degrees, tuner 4 marks out from center and noted. Now we are ready to go to the record and get serious about winning this match. Alright!

Let's say the day is typical of what we encounter at Midland and Phoenix; an increase of about 20 degrees from match one of the morning until noon. By mid afternoon, it may be as much as 25 degrees warmer. As the air warms up it thins out and the bullets are exiting the muzzle a bit early. We need to speed the barrel up slightly to keep bullet exit at the right spot. I'll turn my tuner 'out' about 1 mark for each 5 degree increase in temp watching the test group on the sighter to verify.

Richard, I realize this is way too elementary for you but I wrote it that way for the benefit of newcomers just starting out with tuners.

Mike Ezell (I love the guy) probably has the best idea by saying , "Move the tuner 1 mark in one direction or the other, if the group gets bigger, you went the wrong way, go back where you were and move it 1 mark the other way." Mike, I hope I said that right. I'm getting tired and need to take a break. Hope this helps.

Later,

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

I'm hesitant but I have to disagree about how far and when to move my tuner. IME, it depends mostly on the cartridge and powder used. Some powders change more than others with condition changes...we're all familiar with n133 in a 6ppc and h4198 in a 30br, for example. One is known for being very tune sensitive and the other, not so much. IME, neither can have a blanket statement made as to when you should move the tuner, as in every 5°. With various cartridges, chambers, barrels and rifles, I can say that only a handfull of times over several years now, have I moved my tuner more than 1 mark throughout the course of an entire day and about half of the time, I don't move it at all after the warm up. I will, but only if the target tells me I need to.

Another thing is that with my tuner, about a bullet hole of vertical = 1 mark on the tuner. There are rare exceptions to this, but again, rarely. We have to look at the whole rifle and even the rest and how it manages vibration, so, while I find this remarkably consistent, we have to look at each individual rifle, case by case. That said, I've never seen a rifle be an extreme outlier to this. Every one has been very close.

The picture below is of a target fired with a different make of tuner, but it's absolutely textbook as to what I look for and how groups form...

Look at the top row.

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18512&d=1476239932

A very, very consistent scenario with my tuner is clear in the pic. That being, on a typical short range br rifle, there are about 3-4 marks between completely in tune and completely out of tune. As you move it in 1 mark increments from the out of tune condition, it's very typical to see just what this shooter saw. That being, 3-4 marks from tune, the gun shot a big round group. Then 2-3 marks from tune, the group stairstepped. One mark out, it went straight vertical and in tune, it shot a bullet hole group.

I can't begin to tell you how consistent and predictable this scenario is! It's that EASY! You are NEVER more that about 4 marks out of tune and once you learn what the group size and shape are telling you, it's as simple as moving the tuner that amount.

Now tell me who can't tune a rifle like that.
 

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