Exporting from the U.S. ?

Lynn said:
Dennis
According to Peters and Your earlier Posts and Links the person in Canada should have been asked for his import license and appropriate paperwork.:rolleyes:
Waterboy
Click to expand...

Roll your eyes Lynn :rolleyes:... you are partially correct in the sense that in order to comply with US Laws a Canadian now must apply for an import license for things we never had to apply for before... like brass and bullets...

Canada had to create this import form to comply with US regulations... so a Canadian now has to apply for this import license here in Canada, when received he forwards it with his order to the US supplier. The US supplier can then apply for the export license. When it is received he may then mail the goods.
 
Exporting from the U.S.?

Canadians don't require an import licence for Canadian authorities, we require an Importation Certificate(IIC) which is required by the U.S. exporter as demanded by the U.S. authoriries in order for them to issue an export licence, as stated several times now.

Jim is correct in that we, target shooters and hunters, are targeted by U.S. regulations and certainly the acquisition of American components has been curtailed in Canada to our detriment.

I have been on Foreign Affairs seminars and have dealt directly with the State Department and this is common knowledge to most and substaniated to all that wish to heed.

Regards,

Peter
 
Dennis
Take the time to read your last post very carefully.You keep refferencing the supplier or the exporter like they are a huge corporation.In that situation nobody here is in disagreement.
Inert munitions bans mean they don't want you sending 88mm cannon cases fully intact minus the primer.The reason being anybody can add a primer and powder and create a piece of SME as has been stated at nauseam.
If you look at your own link it says Howitzer right in it.I actually like cakes and pies so no worries here.
There is a huge communication gap going on between individuals and manufacturers and as second one between small arms components and loaded Howitzer rounds.
Lynn


V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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An exporter is the person or company exporting the item. It does not matter if you are Joe the plumber sending one sample unprimed cartridge case for a 6mmPPC or a huge company or corporation sending howitzer cases.... they are both exporters... and inert munitions have no size limit... small or large today are the same as brass cases or bullets. The only way they are exempt from export licensing is if they are rendered useless beyond the possibility of restoration for use as a cartridge or shell casing......

an excerpt below:​


usregs-0.jpg


I know most of this is relatively new regulations but why do you find it so hard to believe the facts? It's a puzzle.:confused:


.
 
Dennis

I know most of this is relatively new regulations but why do you find it so hard to believe the facts? It's a puzzle.:confused:
[/QUOTE]

Don't let this confuse you.I think the confusion comes from not understanding this sentence."For practical purposes, ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military related technologies".It is from the regulations you are quoting from.;)
Waterboy

P.S. Here is an example

In addition, the prohibition on access by Dual and Third Country Nationals from countries proscribed under ITAR 126.1 can cause problems for countries with large immigrant populations from those countries (such as Canada and Australia, which both have large Overseas Chinese and Overseas Vietnamese immigrant populations: see immigration to Canada and immigration to Australia).[41]

The US Government actively enforces restrictions on access to USML items by Dual and Third Country Nationals:

General Dynamics Land Systems was fined USD$20M in 2004 for breaches of the AECA by its predecessor, GM Defense, that included access to USML items by unauthorized Dual Nationals. The unauthorized access had included direct access to USML items and access to international computer systems on which USML items were stored by Dual Nationals from countries including Syria and the PRC.[95]
In 2008, Dr J Reece Roth of the University of Tennessee was convicted of breaches of the AECA because he had given access to USML items (plasma technology used for USAF UAVs) to a graduate students who was a national of the PRC (he had also carried a laptop computer containing USML items to the PRC, even though he did not access the items whilst in the PRC).[96]
 
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Exporting from the U.S.

i have never seen such drivel. I'm out and back to business.
 
Peter, it's beyond drivel... hard to describe.

Lynn, be sure to follow up on your question to the State Department about exporting cartridge cases or bullets.
 
Dennis
The entire part of the 25 page document concerning brass and bullets is in the first 3 pages.
The short section you included of Article III refers you to the weapons of Article I and Article II does it not?
Does Article II clearly state weapons larger than 50 caliber?
Does Article I clearly state weapons smaller than 50 caliber?
Does Article I describe the Type of weapons that the brass and bullets would be used in?
Does Article I clearly point out that those weapons or scopes would be military in nature?

The problem here is You and Peter are probaly having trouble reading the Articles in English.Maybe they have a French version and you would better understand what they mean when they say things like Article III refers to the weapons from Articles I and II.
I'm not from Canada and don't know anyone fluent in french who can translate it for you guys.Article I is dealing with Military weapons and Article III about the brass and bullets is in reference to there use in military weapons.
In the United States we don't consider the 257 Roberts a military weapon.We consider 223 or 308 like used in a Palma rifle Military in nature but commonly used outside of the military as well.
As to your comment about the rules changing frequently down here they are updated every April or you can subscribe and get them as each new rule passes throughout the entire year.
Hopefully our State Department will get us an answer faster than whomever you contacted up there.
Waterboy

Edit: I don't know if this will help you or not but that little funny looking star shaped thing next to the word Firearm is called an Asterisk.What that means is every time you see it you need to put Significant Military Equipment in its place to better understand what they are trying to describe.Again it tells you this but it is in english and not french.
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Lynn you have the interpretation wrong

Lynn
I read and understand English very well. I know and understand the ITAR--I am regulated by it because I manufacture hunting and competition weapons and parts for those weapons. In the USA the rifles we use to hunt with are considered to be military weapons under the ITAR. The 257 Roberts you mentioned IS an ITAR Category I weapon. The 6PPC bench rifles, the 30 BR bench rifles, barrel blanks, stocks, triggers, receivers, scope bases, magazine boxes, trigger guards, springs, followers, rings etc all fall under category I. That is why Shilen, Hart, Jewell, Kelbly, Stiller, Lilja, Borden, etc are registered with US State Department. They have determined that the items we make are ITAR Category I items. The ammunition and components of ammunition for those weapons are Category III.

It is sad that many do not understand or want to believe this reality. Us manufacturers pay at least $2250 a year to the US State Department to stay in business. That is the minimum registration level. Manufacturers/exporters pay a minimum $2750 per year to the US State Department. There have been quite a few manufacturers over the past two years that did not believe this and have gotten friendly phone calls and letters to pay up or else. A couple have argued the same points that you have been making-but they lost and had to register and pay.

What is worry some is that the ITAR is going to expand. The UN has an agenda to eliminate private firearms ownership and it is being done with treaties under the veil of controlling illicit firearms trafficking. the very thing that started the ITAR in the first place with the OAS.

Dennis and Peter have had to deal with this very sensitive issue and understand the regulations well.

Respectfully
Jim

by the way--the Rimrock BR action you purchased last year is considered SME by the State Department
 
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Thanks for the excellent information Jim.

Lynn, you troll* very well.
I am sorry I don't know anyone fluent in French either...

But I think I (as well as many others) know where you can put that little funny looking star shaped thing.

* Troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

The most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts.

That is my perception...

If any moderators feel this is out of line please delete it or let me know and I will remove it.

.
 
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Jim and Dennis

Jim
It is my understanding that All manufacturers(you) and all gunsmiths with a ffl(you,maybe dennis mayve peter) and all commercial exporters(midway usa,cabelas) fall under one category and are not permitterd to export without a license.Basicaly You have your hands tied together because of the nature of your business.They want fees(money) and they want to know what and more importantly whom your dealing with and what you are selling them.

It is further my understanding that while the 257 Roberts Brass is a problem for you as a manufacture,gunsmith,businessman it is not a problem for myself as a individual.This might be my huge mistake but I am not seeing it in Article III which references cartridge cases back to the weapons as described in Article I as Significant Military Weapons.Like I said earlier I will post what the state department says.
In Cheechako's case were he can no longer as a individual send brass or bullets to Canada or Australia as a individual I posted above the reason why straight from the link from Dennis.They both have such large populations of chinese and vietnamese that the state department is worried they will collect products and re-distribute them to there native countries.They simply no longer trust them meaning nobody can send goods without the proper licensing.
If I am found out to be wrong I will post it but again I am coming at this as a individual and not a businessman who has more regulations placed on him.I actually had this same conversation with Jerry Stiller on the centerfire forum.

Dennis
As a Supermoderator whom Wilbur has entrusted to keep things civil and cordial I think you need to tone down your negative and nasty responses or give up your title.You started your poor behaviour issues with Bill Calfee and should have been relieved of your duties back then.
I do however find it funny how your original post says follow the links and don't ask so I will.

Lynn aka Waterboy

Jim
Here is my interpretation.
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Lynn

The regulations apply to everyone!!!!
If you export you have to be registered whether or not you are a manufacturer or an individual.

This is about the flow of arms and ammunition--it is not about just control of manufacturers and businessmen. I have been involved in this long enough I am quite certain about what I have learned.

Also it does not key off if you have an ffl. A trigger maker has to be registered, a barrel maker has to be registered, a stock maker has to be registered, etc. beyond that the regulations apply to individuals taht want to "export" an item outside the USA. They have to go through a registered exporter to send it!

Individuals have bought barrels and have tried to ship to makers in other countries and have found that they are trying to "export" an SME item.

Jim
 
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Sec. 126.5 Canadian exemptions.

(a) General. District directors of customs and postmasters may permit the
export without a license of any unclassified defense article or any
unclassified technical data to Canada for end-use in Canada or return to
the United States, with the exception of the articles or technical data
listed in paragraph (b) of this section.


(b) Eligibility. Licenses or other approvals (other than approvals
obtained pursuant to Sec. 123.9 of this subchapter) may be granted only to
U.S. persons (as defined in Sec. 120.23) and foreign governmental entities
in the United States. Foreign persons (as defined in Sec. 120.11) other
than governments are not eligible. U.S. persons who have been convicted of
violating the U.S. criminal statutes enumerated in Sec. 120.24, or who
have been debarred pursuant to part 127 of this subchapter, are also
generally ineligible (see Sec. 127.6(c) of this subchapter). Applications
for licenses or requests for other approvals will generally be considered
only if the applicant has registered with the Office of Munitions Control
pursuant to part 122 of this subchapter. All applications and requests for
approval must be signed by a responsible official who is a U.S. person and
who has been empowered by the registrant to sign such documents.

SOURCE: [49 FR 47684, Dec. 6, 1984; 50 FR 12787, Apr. 1, 1985, as amended
at 53 FR 11496, Apr. 7, 1988; 54 FR 42497, Oct. 17, 1989]




A U.S. person desiring information as to whether the Office of Munitions
Control would be likely to grant a license or other approval for the
export of particular defense articles or defense services to a particular
country may use the Office of Munitions Control's informal "Advisory
Opinions" procedure. These opinions are advisory only. They are not
binding on the Department of State and are revocable. A request for an
advisory opinion must be by letter. It must outline in detail the
equipment, its usage, the security classification, if any, of the articles
or related technical data, and the country or countries involved. An
original and seven copies of the letter must be provided along with seven
copies of suitable descriptive information concerning the defense article
or defense service. If a request for an advisory opinion involves more
than one country, the letter should address only those countries in the
same geographic area.

Still no word from the state Department but this should help Cheechako out.
Lynn aka Waterboy

Jim check this out.
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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USA to Panama and return

What are the USA rules that might apply --

I am a citizen of the US
I am a resident of the State of Oregon
I have a CCL for the state of Oregon
I am a perminate resident of the Republic of Panama
I am eligable for a weapons permit in Panama

I spend 6 to 8 months per year in the Republic of Panama

I wish to carry my .45/.410 derringer (purchased in the USA) back and forth to and from the US and Panama

The best self-defense rounds I have found for the derringer is Federal 2-1/2" 4x000 Buckshot Personal Defense rounds which are NOT AVAILABLE IN PANAMA.

Continental Airlines has no problem packing the weapon or ammo as long as I follow their rules which are pretty simple.

The weapon will be retained by me. I.e. not sold in Panama.

Do I need a US EXPORT license for the weapon under these circumstansces?

Can anyone put me in touch with a US EXPORTER (required by Panama) to coordinate with a Panamanian IMPORTER to facilitate the transfer of the ammo?

Thanks for any help!
 
I'm sure the good folks in Wales feel safer for it. I wonder what the penalty might be for smuggling the wrong kind of fruitcake.

Greg
 
langenc
If you go hunting in Wyoming,Colorado,Montana,Utah,Arizona,New Mexico,Nevada,Idaho etc etc etc you can bring the meat to California but not the bones or the head.Your allowed to bring the horns home if you cut them off of the skull cap.When you get to the inspection station at the state line you always see a pick-up truck with a couple deer heads proudly on display.The next thing you see is the truck pulled over and emptied out so they can remove the horns and check the ice chests for bones.

If you read my earlier post it is at the discression of the Postmaster if certain items can be shipped.In California about 25% of the Postmasters I have dealt with know what is allowed without looking it up.Alot of them won't ship inert bullets at all even inside the borders.
Waterboy aka Lynn
V. EXEMPTIONS
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS: The ITAR provides for certain exemptions relative to the
transfers of firearms and ammunition. Please read the complete applicable section of the ITAR:
• 123.17(b) Obsolete firearms and models -Non-automatic firearms that were
manufactured on or before 1898, as well as replicas of such firearms, are exempt.
• 123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -U.S.
persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not
more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive
use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on
hunting trips or sporting events).
• 123.17(a) Minor components -Components and parts for Category I firearms are
exempt from licensing requirements when the total value does not exceed $100
wholesale in any single transaction. Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or
complete breech mechanisms are major components and require a license.
• 123.18 Firearms for personal use for members of the U.S. armed forces and
civilian employees of the U.S. Government -Non-automatic firearms may be
exported for personal use and not for resale or transfer of ownership if the firearms
are accompanied by written authorization from the commanding officer or Chief of
the U.S. Diplomatic Mission.
7
 
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Exporting from the US - condensed version.

Exporting from the US - condensed version.
This is posted for general information.

It has been my experience that shooters in both Canada and the US are not aware of all the export regulations that the US has implemented in the past few years. Those living in countries outside of the US became aware of these restrictions much sooner than individuals have in the US due to the fact that knowledgeable businesses within the US were the first to face these export regulations and informed their foreign customers of what had to be done.

Just to name a few items that currently require import/export licensing...

Firearms, barrels, ammunition, cartridges cases, bullets, primers, powder, and many firearm parts all require export licensing. Export means to exit the USA.

The procedure is for the foreign customer to obtain an import license *[International Importation Certificate(IIC)] from their authorities, then send that to the person or company in the US who will be exporting the item/items. That person or company will then use that import license to apply for the export license they require before shipping.

*The International Importation Certificate(IIC) had to be created to satisfy the US exportation laws implemented.

Now many officials are not aware of all the regulations and a huge portion of the population are not. The laws are inadvertently and sometime deliberately broken all the time. Some times individuals get caught, sometimes businesses get caught. Penalties can be severe.

If you have any doubt about exporting cases, bullets, parts, etc. that you may have been doing for years with no problems I suggest you contact the US State Department. http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/about/co...formation.html

I have still not received an answer from Canadian authorities about the status of inert ammunition in Canadian mail. It is rather a moot point with the current US laws anyway. I will post that information when I receive it.
 
I finally received a reply from Canada Post about mailing 'inert munitions'.

As far as Canada Post is concerned "inert munitions" are not allowed in the mail in Canada. They are classified the same as replica ammunition and ammunition and not permitted.

My assumption is they do not have the technology to determine if a round is live or inert and simply ban them all.

Unprimed cases and lead/copper bullets are mailable.
 
Lynn said:
Peter
The intent of the state department is to keep bad people from easily aquiring firearms and ammunition by simply mail ordering it from abroad.They are not interested in a bag of 257 roberts brass going to your favorite hunting buddy.

In the various countries you have manufacturers and businessmen who don't want joe sixpack sending his buddy cartridge cases because it cuts into their profit margins.In 2011 we won't be able to buy components inside of California from other states because of this very same greed.

You also have tariffs and fees imposed on the various imports as everybody wants there piece of the pie.

With the advent of 9-11 and people wearing explosives in there underwear on airplanes do you tryuly think it would be considered prudent to allow 10 guys flying into the country with specialised equipment without advanced notice?

This truly isn't rocket science we are talking about here just common sense.

Ask Jim Borden if he can sell rifles to anyplace inside the U.S. other than his home state without paperwork.I bought one of his actions last year and it cost me $80 just for the paperwork and a 2 week wait before I could take it home from a licensed manufacturer to a licensed dealer and I live here.
Your post is only addressing what everybody who actually lives here already knows and has known for years about firearms and loaded ammunition.

I have hunted and shot outside of this country on many occasions and not once did I not do a pile of paperwork and background checks and I already have a current security clearance on file with the department of defense.

The question is can Joe Sixpack send someone a box of brass in a foriegn country where it isn't illegal to have it?
I have sent the question out to the state department and will post the answer here even if I am wearing egg on my face when I do it.
Lynn
Click to expand...

How is the egg coming Lynn? It took ages for me to get an answer from Canada Post and a few attempts. I expect it takes ages for you to get an answer from the State Department as well...
 
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