Es & sd
- Thread starter shinny
- Start date
dmwphoto
New member
I think there is much more to this story....
I have done that many times, however, it doesn't make any difference how precisely the rounds were charged. As a matter of fact I have found I get better ES & SD when I drop the powder rather than weighing it..
I agree 100%
I agree also
You all are telling me you've weighed to the individual kernel?
"weighing" with normal equipment like a Chargemaster is no better than throwing. In many cases it's worse.
And have any of you ever GOT single digit ES?? I do it regularly on cases up to and including 100gr charges...... I do it as a matter of course, dozens of chambers.....
If just one of you tell me you've actually DONE IT, on an electronic scale which differentiates individual grains, I'll apologize......profusely.....and say I'm WRONG.
Just one of you.
BTW, if you've done it, you should have an idea just how much a single kernel of your chosen powder is worth, velocitywise.
"weighing" with normal equipment like a Chargemaster is no better than throwing. In many cases it's worse.
And have any of you ever GOT single digit ES?? I do it regularly on cases up to and including 100gr charges...... I do it as a matter of course, dozens of chambers.....
If just one of you tell me you've actually DONE IT, on an electronic scale which differentiates individual grains, I'll apologize......profusely.....and say I'm WRONG.
Just one of you.
BTW, if you've done it, you should have an idea just how much a single kernel of your chosen powder is worth, velocitywise.
FBecigneul
Member
And if you have done it with just one, not a matter of course but with one single chamber, I will apologize. The only difference between the collective US and you is you post more.
I have found inconsistent neck tension affects es/sd more than one kernel of powder. I use a fx 120 scale.
I have no idea what you're attempting to communicate here
I shoot 100 to 600yds out my reloading room window, I have a dozen chronos including 2 Oehler43's and a fixtured acoustic target @ 100yds just to support my "$1000.00 Internet Bet" about bullets going to sleep.
I weigh thousands of charges and routinely shoot everything except 6PPC over the chronos... I've got more weighed/chono'd shots documented on video than most people have ever fired.
adamsgt
Jerry Adams
Bill Calfee?
Al, you're sounding a little like Bill Calfee here. You claim some wonderful results but no real hint at how you got there.
Al, you're sounding a little like Bill Calfee here. You claim some wonderful results but no real hint at how you got there.
Sngle Digit SD
Shooting 6 BR
Use Auto Trickler Gen 3 with 120 Electronic balance
routinely get 3 SD-9 SD
Scale is accurate to .02 gr.
Occasionally have to add one kernel of powder, which for Varget ,weighs routinely within .02 gr . Adding the kernal this is done with a pair of micro surgery forceps.
But it does not help me read the flags any better.
Shooting 6 BR
Use Auto Trickler Gen 3 with 120 Electronic balance
routinely get 3 SD-9 SD
Scale is accurate to .02 gr.
Occasionally have to add one kernel of powder, which for Varget ,weighs routinely within .02 gr . Adding the kernal this is done with a pair of micro surgery forceps.
But it does not help me read the flags any better.
I don't "claim" squat, I DO get these results, regularly. I expect them. Low ES in and of itself doesn't make a gun shoot but it definitely eliminates one variable, the variable of velocity differences shot-to-shot
"no real hint???"
now
I tried to speak real slow in my first post.
I'll try again.
#1- you get a good scale
#2- you weigh charges to the single kernel of powder
those of you who do this and still are getting high ES, please let the world know....... because it's HARD to load that bad. I will be very interested in solving your dilemna. If you're weighing to the individual kernel and still getting 20fps ES then IMO you've a mechanical issue somewhere.
OTOH if you're using a Chargemaster or a thrower you'll be hard pressed to see as low as 20fps no matter how carefully you suave your cases.
some of the posters here have grown a years-long reputation for grunting and wheezing about stuff they've never done so please, those of you who are actually weighing like Fx77 feel free to reply....... with actual experience......you'se others weezers can go p!$$ up a rope
(BTW, that was funny right thar, Weezer)
FBecigneul
Member
Isn’t that wonderful? You can weigh single kernels and had an ES and SD of Zero.Now, post the targets that made all that worthwhile. Matter of fact, you’ve never posted any pictures of targets or match results. That is where rubber meets the road.
I've got hours of "pictures"...... live video, live camera feeds...... I recently built several 6PPC's, showed the targets from the first shot....... I'm currently documenting, in detail building 50BMG hunting rifles, posting an impossible challenge to myself, building rifles to a standard that's never been done. You can buy one if you want, I'll build you one with your name on it.
Your idea of "worthwhile" is perhaps different than mine friend
but posting small targets is dead easy. And yes, I've posted many here on BRC, rows and rows of groups in simple fact....you can't goad me into your silly world, but mine is an open book.
Lee Martin
Active member
I only shoot short range, so I can't speak to ES and SD as they pertain to 600 or 1,000 yard competition. I realize they're more important at those distances. But out to 300 yards, this is what I've found...
I took my FX-120i scale and Lab Radar and checked ES's and SD's when weighed to the nearest 0.02 gr versus thrown with my Culver. I did this with LT-32 in my 6 PPC and LT-30 in my .30 Stingray. Both throw easy. I could keep them within a +/- 0.1 gr window with the Culver. No surprise, those weighed to 0.02 grs had lower ES's and SD's. The thrown charges were a higher. I'll have to dig out my notes for actual figures on this.....it's been a few years. Numbers aside, all I care about is the tale of the paper.
After many trips to the range, group size wasn't strongly correlated to ES or SD. For example, I remember shooting a two groups back-to-back under 0.150" at 100 yards (5-shots). They were weighed but showed a fairly wide spread.....like 20 - 25 fps. Another weighed charge, but a different load, showed much tighter spread but the groups opened to around 0.250" (or higher). Same day, same conditions, pretty much same everything except the ES changed. On the flip side, I had some loads that printed better with low SD's and ES's. Others, not so much.
My take on all this? You can chase low ES's and SD's and have the tightest spread be at the mid-deflection point. Conversely, you could have slightly higher ES's and SD's and be top dead center of a wide node. We want the latter.
Wide nodes and being able to center on those nodes through load tuning or a tuner is key. Powders with wide node profiles also help. All of my guns wear tuners. I want a load that'll give me a little buffer on each side of my tuner setting. So I tune exclusively to the paper. My Lab Radar rarely sees the light of day. And as mentioned before, all of this goes out the window when the flags shift. My personal shooting improved when I focused less on the academics of BR and more on the flags, gun handling, etc, etc. Meaning trigger time and lot of matches across many different ranges.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
I took my FX-120i scale and Lab Radar and checked ES's and SD's when weighed to the nearest 0.02 gr versus thrown with my Culver. I did this with LT-32 in my 6 PPC and LT-30 in my .30 Stingray. Both throw easy. I could keep them within a +/- 0.1 gr window with the Culver. No surprise, those weighed to 0.02 grs had lower ES's and SD's. The thrown charges were a higher. I'll have to dig out my notes for actual figures on this.....it's been a few years. Numbers aside, all I care about is the tale of the paper.
After many trips to the range, group size wasn't strongly correlated to ES or SD. For example, I remember shooting a two groups back-to-back under 0.150" at 100 yards (5-shots). They were weighed but showed a fairly wide spread.....like 20 - 25 fps. Another weighed charge, but a different load, showed much tighter spread but the groups opened to around 0.250" (or higher). Same day, same conditions, pretty much same everything except the ES changed. On the flip side, I had some loads that printed better with low SD's and ES's. Others, not so much.
My take on all this? You can chase low ES's and SD's and have the tightest spread be at the mid-deflection point. Conversely, you could have slightly higher ES's and SD's and be top dead center of a wide node. We want the latter.
Wide nodes and being able to center on those nodes through load tuning or a tuner is key. Powders with wide node profiles also help. All of my guns wear tuners. I want a load that'll give me a little buffer on each side of my tuner setting. So I tune exclusively to the paper. My Lab Radar rarely sees the light of day. And as mentioned before, all of this goes out the window when the flags shift. My personal shooting improved when I focused less on the academics of BR and more on the flags, gun handling, etc, etc. Meaning trigger time and lot of matches across many different ranges.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
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Boyd Allen
Active member
What cartridge, powder, bullet and neck tension? Are you equipped to measure peak seating force? How do you prep the insides of your case necks?