educate me on ammo lot trials

H

hiknmik

Guest
Good evening all,
First time here and scratching my head some.
I have shot for many years but it was always "shoot what ya got" in my lower grade guns. I now have a better bolt action rifle for a starter/training gun, a CZ455 varmint.
I have gotten the brenchrest bug and need an education. I understand some ammo shoots better in certain guns while other ammo does not.
Everyone keeps mentioning "a good shooting lot" but what makes or defines or indicates a good shooting lot? I don't mean"it shoots better" I mean what do you first look for? What could the differences be that makes a good lot?
All things equal like, gun with a good barrel, good technique etc.
We'll use Eley Match as our test ammo. Eley lists lot and FPS for each run.
1) I see FPS from about 1048 to 1078, does FPS come high on the list of what to look for? Would other lots with similar FPS shoot the same in a the same barrel?
2) Does rim thickness play a major role?
3) does overall bullet length play a major role?
4) You get the idea.
I would assume Eley does not assign a certain casing run to a certain bullet run or do they? Some people talk about watching for a certain machine run or operator?
Lots of questions I know but BR seems to be a thinking man's game. if you have somewhere on the internet to direct me for more information that would be helpful also.
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read and/or respond.
Safe shooting and score a ten.
Thanks Mike
 
Educate me on ammo lot trials

1) I see FPS from about 1048 to 1078, does FPS come high on the list of what to look for? Would other lots with similar FPS shoot the same in a the same barrel?
No, even same ammo with same velocity but from different lots shot differently...You need to test several lots and find what your rifle likes best; then BUY lots of that good shooting ammo and start the process whenever you deploy your inventory.
2) Does rim thickness play a major role?
Yes it does but good quality match ammo like ELEY MATCH & TENEX or equivalent have very close rim tolerances and measuring the rim as well as weighting ammo as it was done 10-15 years ago is a waste of time. Check your headspace with the ammo that you will be using as manufacturers use different rim thickness.
3) does overall bullet length play a major role?
You have no choice but to use what the manufacturers offer. Bullet length is important for accuracy in the sense that the chamber should be appropriately cut to match the ammo. Most Match chambers engage the bullet into the rifling (Groves and lands). Freebore in .22 LR does not help for accuracy. Freebore in centerfire is sometimes used for alleviating pressure issues in high velocity-full loads but it is not a good practice in rimfire.
4) I would assume Eley does not assign a certain casing run to a certain bullet run or do they? Some people talk about watching for a certain machine run or operator?
Eley Match grade ammo use EPS bullets (Flat nose) with beeswax as lubricant, this bullet has a .150 BC and it is as high and good as you are going to get, most others match bullets have .140
Eley has a similar standard practices for all of their loading machines and all operators are trained and follow the same rules and parameters, so NO, the operator has not much of an input; remember that the loading is done automatically. Casings are the same for their Match grade ammo and the environmental variables are controlled and the same every time (Humidity, temperature, etc.). The variables that you really have are the mechanical tolerances of the loading machine at the time when the ammo is being loaded, the powder and primmer little variance that may exist in formulations from different batches (Eley does not manufacture primer and powder) and up to a certain point, the lead variance.
Lead is usually very consistent and easier to monitor than Powder-Primmer formulations, these two added to the mentioned tolerances of the loading machine are what basically determine the difference...It is fair to say that a similar loader with very close batch numbers and similar velocities will be "similar" ammo because the lots will almost be identical in components, velocity and tolerances of the loader...


Tenex and Match come from the very same machines and the difference relies is tighter tolerances for the Tenex AFTER the ammo is produced, but we are splitting hairs when we compare the accuracy of these two grades of ammo.

I shoot two identical match grade select Shilen ratchet barrels in a Turbo action cut by the same gunsmith (Gorham), chamber was cut with the same brand new reamer, same tolerances and identical length and both barrels need to have the tuner set about 10-12 numbers apart and shot very differently with the same lot of ammo...Actually one of the barrels has a larger sweet spot.
Some other people will have different experiences and you will find no Bible in this respect...You will have to experiment and do a lot of testing for finding what your gun likes the best...

The CZ is a good accurate plinking/hunting rifle (I have a 452 and a BRNO mod 1 from 1952 in impeccable condition and both shoot very well)...The CZ will get you started but understand that you will not be competitive against the custom rifles with top components costing 6-8 times what you paid for your CZ 455...
To give you a perspective: Not even Anschutz factory rifles with 54 actions (Considered the best factory rifles used in the Olympics) compete against custom made BR rifles.

Please review the top guns/components used in this link: http://www.proshootingleague.com/results/2012-psl-shilen-challenge/equipment-list/

Good shooting...:cool:

Best regards,

AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
 

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................ to really muddy the waters, try testing Lapua Center X, Midas + and don't forget RWS R-50.
 
Thank you Azuora for the reply.
So from what I gather once you step into the higher grade rounds it is more a luck of the draw how a lot will perform in a given rifle. While the variances are very small it can spell the difference between a perfect shot or one 2mm out, wind not taken into consideration.
How many of each lot would one expect to test before determing that lot is sweet? 1 box, 2 boxes, or even more?
As far as the CZ, I agree it is accurate for it's price but would not be competive in true competion.
But it's like this. While I have the funds to purchase a custom rifle and all that goes along with it, I am wise enough to know that the person shooting the gun is just as important if not more important than the gun its self. A bad shooter cannot shoot great because he has a great gun.Shooting the CZ will give me the time and experince to find out if it warrants getting top notch equipment and a chance to see how good I am at reading wind. A race car driver does not start out in NASCAR. The fact also that top smiths have a large back log is a factor also.
I plan to attend some matches this spring to watch and learn from others and talking to them should be a big help.
Again thank you for the reply and the adventure continues.
Mike
 
ammo a/b'ing

I am not a competition benchrest shooter (unless you count F class in 6BR), but I have a lot of fun A/B'ing different ammo in my different rifles, and I will use a rest to remove as much variable as possible. One of my clubs is a 22 only indoor 50 foot range, and this time of year I will take about 10 different ammos, and using an A-17 50 ft. small bore rifle target, with a sighter bull and 10 record bulls, I will shoot five shot groups on each bull, different ammo each time ,everything from Federal AutoMatch to Wolf ME, SK Rifle Match, Fiocchi 320, Eley Match, Eley Club, Center-X, Midas +, and I will soon have some Tenex and other high priced spreads, just for the fun of it. Then I get the calipres out and compare results, all shot in the same session on the same day in the same rifle. Couple days later I will do it again, with a different rifle, and it is fun to see the different results. I log all this, and gradually a data base emerges, what my rifles like on a given day. The biggest variable I wonder about, I have read that you when you switch to a different ammo in the same session, you need a couple of fouling shots, so the rifle can settle in with that ammo. Then shoot for record. I have not been doing that, and wonder if that may account for the occasional flyer. (Couldn't be me!)
I have a good time with this, don't know if it bears any similarity to what a serious benchrest competitor would be doing.
 
Edward - I'd be curious as to what conclusions have been derived from your testing (so far); also, don't discount the potential of Eley "Black Box" Match & of RWS-50. I'm in the midst of similar testing, using one rifle only - cleaning between ammos - and testing 50 rounds per session (15-2 shot groups + 4-5 shot groups). Enjoy the ride!
 
abbydad said:
Edward - I'd be curious as to what conclusions have been derived from your testing (so far); also, don't discount the potential of Eley "Black Box" Match & of RWS-50. I'm in the midst of similar testing, using one rifle only - cleaning between ammos - and testing 50 rounds per session (15-2 shot groups + 4-5 shot groups). Enjoy the ride!
Click to expand...

I am quite impressed with Eley Black Box , as well as Fiocchi 320 (with some rifles). Eley Club (orange box) also does better than its price point would predict. I am not convinced that Lapua Midas + is worth the extra cost over Lapua Center X, which is right up there with the Eley Black Box. have not tried Tenex yet. I am less confident in reporting results with my High Standard Supermatic pistol, too much operator error potential there. For low cost cannon fodder, Federal AutoMatch is my go-to. My rifles range from Browning T-bolts (old and new, not the best, but not bad) to Savage Mk II BTVS, to Ruger 10/22 target, CZ 452, to Anschutz sporters and an old Anschutz 54 target rifle, the best.
 
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hiknmik wrote - "While I have the funds to purchase a custom rifle and all that goes along with it, I am wise enough to know that the person shooting the gun is just as important if not more important than the gun its self. A bad shooter cannot shoot great because he has a great gun.Shooting the CZ will give me the time and experince to find out if it warrants getting top notch equipment and a chance to see how good I am at reading wind."

That's a very logical and typical line of thought. It is, however, somewhat misguided. You can't possibly learn to shoot competitively with a non-competitive rifle.
 
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Wilbur must be remembering when he went from being a participant at the matches to winning when he bought a rifle that was a proven performer
Good post wise one
 
I agree with Wibur. All you will learn from shooting BR with a rifle that does not have the accuracy potential needed to compete is how to deal with frustration. I spent too many years going down that road and I never really learned how to shoot this game until I obtained seriously competitive equipment. But you can have fun with non-BR quality rifles and get hooked on the sport. It won't take you but a couple matches to want better stuff because no one wants to consistently dwell in the cellar. Attend a few matches, get your feet wet and find out what you'll need to buy to compete and then you can focus on what you'll need to learn.
 
Don Stith said:
Wilbur must be remembering when he went from being a participant at the matches to winning when he bought a rifle that was a proven performer
Good post wise one
Click to expand...

I had already done it with a centerfire rifle with great success. It's amazing how well you can learn to read the wind by writing a check.
 
Some explanation might be necessary for this to make sense. For discussion purposes, let's talk about a rifle that groups two bullet holes vertical at best. You're sitting there catching the ten ring in a calm but on the 12th bull the wind picks up requiring a sighter. You shoot the sighter and it hits low just below the 10 ring - a solid 9. You move over to the 13th bull, hold high and your shot hits high - a solid 9.

Your rifle is still shooting 2 bullet holes vertical except that the sighter was the lower hole rather than the higher hole. The record shot was the higher hole.
 
stringing

What does horizontal stringing tell you? I encounter that with some ammo in some rifles.
And vertical stringing, assuming the bore is not over-heating?
And sometimes when shooting five shots, I will get a nice tight three shot group, and another tight two shot group off to the side, not touching the other group. And these are shots where I did not call a flyer.
btw, I do not recall encountering this with my best rifle , the Anschutz 54, regardless of the ammo. I will get groups of greater or lesser tightness varying with the ammo with that rifle, but usually one ragged hole at worst if I do my bit.
 
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Tells me that if I were headed for a shootin' match I'd take the Anschutz.

Those other rifles have some kind of accuracy flaw that could possibly be corrected with a ground up approach. Start with the bedding and go with a known glass. "Two grouping", if the groups are consistently relative to each other, might indicate bedding or an ignition problem. I'm all in with that. Perhaps somebody that knows more about rifles will respond.
 
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