L
LC Smith
Guest
Is anyone still using this product? How does one get started coating bullets with it?
L
LC Smith
Guest
Both, really. I understand its easier to do than moly. Also from what I gather, it has less drawbacks than moly.
Apollo
Jason Stanley
LC
Where to buy: The cheapest place that I have found (online) would be a place in Canada called MK Impex Lower Friction division. I'm not sure what their shipping charges are but their price is around $50/pound.
If you want to stay in the US, the cheapest I've found is around $70 per 1/2 pound. Either way 1/2 pound of Tungsten DiSulfide =WS2 = Danzak, is enough for 3 lifetimes. If you want a sample of it, send me a personal message.
My procedure:
1. Clean bullets with some type of spray degreaser. I have a strainer that I just spray the degreaser in and shake the bullets around. (Do not touch the bullets again, with bare fingers, until your done)
2. Dump the bullets from the strainer onto a towel to dry.
3. Use clean pill bottle to put around 25-40 bullets in. Bigger the bullet the fewer you should use.
4. Clean about 1/5th - 1/4th of the bottle worth of BB (same as #1)
5. Add BB's to bottle.
6. Add a screw driver's tip full of WS2 to the bottle. (a little bit goes a long ways. Don't worry - you can use the extra again - plus it will take some to coat the BB's the first time)
You should now have in the bottle: clean BB's, clean bullets, WS2
7. Use black tape to secure the lid - otherwise the media gets into the bottle. Huge mess.
8. Put the bottle(s) in a tumbler for 1 - 1.5 hours. I usually do 3 bottles at a time. I can do 100 6mm bullets in 3 bottles.
9. After tumbling time - dump contents of bottles into jar. (I made up a strainer that the BB's fall through and the bullets stay on top). Pick out bullets and place in old tube sock or towel. Dump BB's and any unused WS2 back into the pill bottle to use again next time. You will only have to coat the BB's once - the next time won't take near as much WS2.
10. Gently rub back and forth bullets in sock or towel to get rid of any WS2 left on the bullets.
11. Load and shoot
Total time = roughly 1 hour 40 min or so. Total working time = 15 min, if that.
I've never shot Moly - so can't say anything about the benefits - but in my barrels WS2 only takes 2 shots to get the barrel shooting good groups and cleans easily. I used Butch's Bore Shine and Wipe Out. Bore Shine first, 1 wet and 2 dry patches then Wipe Out
Hope this helps - I'm sure others will have their own way - do what works for you.
Stanley
Where to buy: The cheapest place that I have found (online) would be a place in Canada called MK Impex Lower Friction division. I'm not sure what their shipping charges are but their price is around $50/pound.
If you want to stay in the US, the cheapest I've found is around $70 per 1/2 pound. Either way 1/2 pound of Tungsten DiSulfide =WS2 = Danzak, is enough for 3 lifetimes. If you want a sample of it, send me a personal message.
My procedure:
1. Clean bullets with some type of spray degreaser. I have a strainer that I just spray the degreaser in and shake the bullets around. (Do not touch the bullets again, with bare fingers, until your done)
2. Dump the bullets from the strainer onto a towel to dry.
3. Use clean pill bottle to put around 25-40 bullets in. Bigger the bullet the fewer you should use.
4. Clean about 1/5th - 1/4th of the bottle worth of BB (same as #1)
5. Add BB's to bottle.
6. Add a screw driver's tip full of WS2 to the bottle. (a little bit goes a long ways. Don't worry - you can use the extra again - plus it will take some to coat the BB's the first time)
You should now have in the bottle: clean BB's, clean bullets, WS2
7. Use black tape to secure the lid - otherwise the media gets into the bottle. Huge mess.
8. Put the bottle(s) in a tumbler for 1 - 1.5 hours. I usually do 3 bottles at a time. I can do 100 6mm bullets in 3 bottles.
9. After tumbling time - dump contents of bottles into jar. (I made up a strainer that the BB's fall through and the bullets stay on top). Pick out bullets and place in old tube sock or towel. Dump BB's and any unused WS2 back into the pill bottle to use again next time. You will only have to coat the BB's once - the next time won't take near as much WS2.
10. Gently rub back and forth bullets in sock or towel to get rid of any WS2 left on the bullets.
11. Load and shoot
Total time = roughly 1 hour 40 min or so. Total working time = 15 min, if that.
I've never shot Moly - so can't say anything about the benefits - but in my barrels WS2 only takes 2 shots to get the barrel shooting good groups and cleans easily. I used Butch's Bore Shine and Wipe Out. Bore Shine first, 1 wet and 2 dry patches then Wipe Out
Hope this helps - I'm sure others will have their own way - do what works for you.
Stanley
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L
LC Smith
Guest
Stanley,
Email sent.
Email sent.
Apollo
Jason Stanley
sorry
sorry for the confusion LC. My work's IGear won't let me change my personal settings so I can see my messages????? Just send me an e-mail directly to jstanley@esu4.org. Thanks
Stanley
sorry for the confusion LC. My work's IGear won't let me change my personal settings so I can see my messages????? Just send me an e-mail directly to jstanley@esu4.org. Thanks
Stanley
T
tgp
Guest
Don't know if they still do but Sinclair used to offer a kit for Danzac. I bought it years ago and while I don't coat alot of bullets with it(100-200 yr.) I will say that it works for what I needed it to do, stop copper fouling. The kit came with enough Danzac to last past the life of the barrel.
I just dumped all the little ball bearings in a tumbler, coated them, then add about a teaspoon everytime I coat bullets, a box at a time. I tumble them for about an hour then put the the bullets in untreated media and tuble for about 15 min. and they are ready to go.
Hope this helps.
Glenn
I just dumped all the little ball bearings in a tumbler, coated them, then add about a teaspoon everytime I coat bullets, a box at a time. I tumble them for about an hour then put the the bullets in untreated media and tuble for about 15 min. and they are ready to go.
Hope this helps.
Glenn
H
Hankthe22
Guest
Why Danzac
Hi Apollo,
I was on the verge of trying moly coating bullets awhile ago when I read that D. Tubbs was experimenting with boron nitride. I thought I'd wait and see what the verdict was, but I haven't heard anything. I checked out the source you provided and saw all three products for sale. My question is why did you settle on Danzac? The specs didn't suggest any big difference performance wise. It has also been suggested that sulfide (moly and Danzac) may be connected to SS corosion. Any findings or thoughts on this?
Thanks, Hanic
Hi Apollo,
I was on the verge of trying moly coating bullets awhile ago when I read that D. Tubbs was experimenting with boron nitride. I thought I'd wait and see what the verdict was, but I haven't heard anything. I checked out the source you provided and saw all three products for sale. My question is why did you settle on Danzac? The specs didn't suggest any big difference performance wise. It has also been suggested that sulfide (moly and Danzac) may be connected to SS corosion. Any findings or thoughts on this?
Thanks, Hanic
Apollo
Jason Stanley
I shot "naked" bullets up until 1.5 yrs ago when a friend of mine (who knows a lot more about shooting than I do) recommended it. He had shot moly for 15 or so years and was switching to WS2. He explained the process(same as above), so I tried it.
I have never shot Moly - so can't personally comment on it -but I can tell you what he told me. With moly, it took 8-12 shots before his barrel would settle in - now with Danzac he is ready to go in 2-3. My personal findings are the barrel is set in 2 fouling shots. He says clean up is a little easier with WS2 than with moly. Again, I don't know about Moly, just pretty easy with WS2. This is the main reason why I coat my "paper" bullets - I like to shoot more than I like to clean.
I have no personal experience or research with Boron Nitride (white graphite) - so can't say anything about it.
As far as the corrosion question. I have not noticed any on my barrels, but I didn't know for sure (no borescope) - so I e-mail Dominic at Lower Friction - these are his exact words:
"WS2 does not cause corrosion. It is inert and does not absorb moisture. MoS2(Moly) on the the other hand causes corrosion in barrels as it has the ability to absorb moisture."
Another resource would be Varmit Al's web page.(Reloading page) (http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm) Scroll down about 3/4 the way and he'll show you a picture of a blued barrel with moly. Also, make sure your read his 5 points underneath that. As stated, he still shoots moly, just has some precautions if it is raining or humid when he does.
When I was shooting "naked" I would have my best groups, in a 22-250, from shot 3 to about 14-15. Then it would be time to clean. With Danzac I have not noticed any difference in group size all the way out to 50 (that is the most I've shot with out cleaning).
That could be my bad shooting though.
When I was fireforming brass and breaking in my 260AI barrel I shot naked bullets. Group size was around .9- 1" Once the barrel was broke in - I started coating bullets - I tested to see if WS2 shrunk the groups - so loaded some exactly the same with nonfireformed brass and the groups were around 1" (same for my level of shooting). Which confirmed what I had read; coating bullets doesn't shrink your groups - just allows you to shoot the same groups longer.
Another resource you could look for is Eric Stecker (usually on the 1000 yd forum - bulletisian(sp) at Berger) He made some very informative posts on coating bullets earlier.
hope this was of some help to you - many others much more knowledgable than me.
LC - I did not receive an e-mail. My personal messages now work.
Stanley
I have never shot Moly - so can't personally comment on it -but I can tell you what he told me. With moly, it took 8-12 shots before his barrel would settle in - now with Danzac he is ready to go in 2-3. My personal findings are the barrel is set in 2 fouling shots. He says clean up is a little easier with WS2 than with moly. Again, I don't know about Moly, just pretty easy with WS2. This is the main reason why I coat my "paper" bullets - I like to shoot more than I like to clean.
I have no personal experience or research with Boron Nitride (white graphite) - so can't say anything about it.
As far as the corrosion question. I have not noticed any on my barrels, but I didn't know for sure (no borescope) - so I e-mail Dominic at Lower Friction - these are his exact words:
"WS2 does not cause corrosion. It is inert and does not absorb moisture. MoS2(Moly) on the the other hand causes corrosion in barrels as it has the ability to absorb moisture."
Another resource would be Varmit Al's web page.(Reloading page) (http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm) Scroll down about 3/4 the way and he'll show you a picture of a blued barrel with moly. Also, make sure your read his 5 points underneath that. As stated, he still shoots moly, just has some precautions if it is raining or humid when he does.
When I was shooting "naked" I would have my best groups, in a 22-250, from shot 3 to about 14-15. Then it would be time to clean. With Danzac I have not noticed any difference in group size all the way out to 50 (that is the most I've shot with out cleaning).
That could be my bad shooting though.
When I was fireforming brass and breaking in my 260AI barrel I shot naked bullets. Group size was around .9- 1" Once the barrel was broke in - I started coating bullets - I tested to see if WS2 shrunk the groups - so loaded some exactly the same with nonfireformed brass and the groups were around 1" (same for my level of shooting). Which confirmed what I had read; coating bullets doesn't shrink your groups - just allows you to shoot the same groups longer.
Another resource you could look for is Eric Stecker (usually on the 1000 yd forum - bulletisian(sp) at Berger) He made some very informative posts on coating bullets earlier.
hope this was of some help to you - many others much more knowledgable than me.
LC - I did not receive an e-mail. My personal messages now work.
Stanley
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L
LC Smith
Guest
Thank you.
H
Hankthe22
Guest
Thanks for the info
Thank you for your detailed response. If you have any more Danzac you can part with I'd like to try it out bfore I buy 2 1/2 life times worth. I'm willing to pay you for your trouble. Thanks Hanic
Thank you for your detailed response. If you have any more Danzac you can part with I'd like to try it out bfore I buy 2 1/2 life times worth. I'm willing to pay you for your trouble. Thanks Hanic
W
WrzWaldo
Guest
I use it on all but my very low volume big game rifles and sell the stuff for $5.00 per ounce + shipping. It is .6 micron and right now I have just under 10 pounds left.
Here's my procedure.
Here's my procedure.
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A
Ax238
Guest
I bought a sample pack from the Canadian distributor also. I put some on a patch and swab the barrel several times. Then I don't have to treat the bullets if the bore is treated. That works very good to reduce fouling and copper buildup, and it seems to improve accuracy of course. 
W
WrzWaldo
Guest
I bought a sample pack from the Canadian distributor also. I put some on a patch and swab the barrel several times. Then I don't have to treat the bullets if the bore is treated. That works very good to reduce fouling and copper buildup, and it seems to improve accuracy of course.
You do not realize the full benefit unless you both coat the bullets and treat the bore. I have shot with coated bullets only and bore treatment only and the reduction in copper fouling was only marginal at best.
A
Ax238
Guest
Then I guess my barrels are smoother than yours is, because I don't have anything but praise for the way I do it.
Eric Stecker
New member
Asked to respond
I have been asked to engage this particular thread so I will share my thoughts and experience. Moly, Danzac, and Boron are meant to do one thing which is reduce friction. There are reason why reducing friction is a good idea. Unfortunately, of the three methods listed I do not know which is best if one is "best".
What I can tell you is that Walt, Eunice (while she was alive) and I have shot only moly coated bullets (since moly was introduced). It is our observation that the precision level of a particular combination is extended WITHIN A GIVEN SHOOTING SESSION. Barrels must be cleaned after a days shooting is completed but the precision is maintained for longer periods during the day's shooting.
I have never used Danzac or Boron simply because we are happy with moly. They may be fine products and capable of producing the same positive benefits as moly.
For the record, those who I trust to know a great deal about the coorosive nature of moly relay that this is a myth and that moly does not corrode 416 stainless even in high humidity situations. If you are concerned about this put a patch of Rem oil or Kroil through your barrel after cleaning. This will insure that no corrosion of any kind will occur.
I have personally observed that moly will not prevent bullet failure under all circumstance. I am also aware that Boron does not stop the 6mm 117 gr bullets that Tubb was pushing from exploding (I have learned that this bullet will be discontinued as it was found to be an unsuccessful design).
Coatings are meant to do one thing and that is to reduce friction. Reducing friction has positive benefits such as reduced chance of bullet failures, extended precision within a shooting session and easier cleaning. Reducing friction also has drawbacks such as reduced velocity (which can be overcome by increasing your load if you have the capacity to do so) and the addition of another variable in load development.
It is up to each shooter to decide which product to use and it is up to them to determine if they benefit from the compromise.
Regards,
Eric
I have been asked to engage this particular thread so I will share my thoughts and experience. Moly, Danzac, and Boron are meant to do one thing which is reduce friction. There are reason why reducing friction is a good idea. Unfortunately, of the three methods listed I do not know which is best if one is "best".
What I can tell you is that Walt, Eunice (while she was alive) and I have shot only moly coated bullets (since moly was introduced). It is our observation that the precision level of a particular combination is extended WITHIN A GIVEN SHOOTING SESSION. Barrels must be cleaned after a days shooting is completed but the precision is maintained for longer periods during the day's shooting.
I have never used Danzac or Boron simply because we are happy with moly. They may be fine products and capable of producing the same positive benefits as moly.
For the record, those who I trust to know a great deal about the coorosive nature of moly relay that this is a myth and that moly does not corrode 416 stainless even in high humidity situations. If you are concerned about this put a patch of Rem oil or Kroil through your barrel after cleaning. This will insure that no corrosion of any kind will occur.
I have personally observed that moly will not prevent bullet failure under all circumstance. I am also aware that Boron does not stop the 6mm 117 gr bullets that Tubb was pushing from exploding (I have learned that this bullet will be discontinued as it was found to be an unsuccessful design).
Coatings are meant to do one thing and that is to reduce friction. Reducing friction has positive benefits such as reduced chance of bullet failures, extended precision within a shooting session and easier cleaning. Reducing friction also has drawbacks such as reduced velocity (which can be overcome by increasing your load if you have the capacity to do so) and the addition of another variable in load development.
It is up to each shooter to decide which product to use and it is up to them to determine if they benefit from the compromise.
Regards,
Eric
W
WrzWaldo
Guest
J
J. Valentine
Guest
This is how Moly works and the 'Potential " down side but it is not a problem if you adopt the correct cleaning methods after a shooting session.
Danzac has similar properties and performance and is easier to coat but its load carrying ability is inferior to Moly .
Pure Moly Coating .
Article 1.
Written by John Valentine 15 / 11 / 90 Copyright .
Revised and updated 07/ 12 /06
I started experimenting with moly greasing about 30 years ago and moly coating projectiles about 20 years ago now , using them in several center fires .
As far as I am concerned it works well for me .
During one of my tests I fired a CMC Howa 223 Rem , 300 times without cleaning and the accuracy at 300 rounds was just as good as it was at 30 rounds .
It had just returned from a two week trip where it fired 200 odd rounds without cleaning with any bore solvents just a wipe through with oil when I got home each night .
This was some years ago and under the same circumstances today , I would clean properly each day.
During coating , Molybdenum Disulphide and nothing else goes on the projectiles .
The tumbling process at 1.5 revolutions per second with 3 mm hard steel balls produces a different product to other commercial processes .
If done properly it results in a deep coating that doesn’t come off on your fingers .
I believe that pure moly coating will give increased barrel life , cooler barrel temperatures , greatly reduced copper fouling , reduced barrel cleaning , and increased accuracy , although I need to qualify this last statement .
I have found the following to be true in my barrels .
If you compare a 10 shot group from a clean barrel using moly projectiles against uncoated projectiles from the same clean barrel there generally will be little difference and I have noticed a tendency for the uncoated projectiles to group slightly tighter under these conditions .
The nature of the test favours the uncoated projectiles , but if you fire 50 rounds of both projectiles without cleaning at 20 to 30 rounds the uncoated projectiles will start to loose accuracy due to fouling and the moly projectiles will still retain accuracy way beyond that .
The nature of this test favours the Moly projectiles .
It takes a while for the moly to coat the barrel and settle down .
The results of a test depends on what test you do and how you analyse the results .
This is what I have experienced and anyone who is interested needs to try for themselves to see if they like Moly coating or not , but you need to Know what is on your projectiles , just because its black doesn’t mean its Pure Moly .
If you do try it , here are some of the things I discovered .
Never push a dry tight patch through a barrel that has used moly as it can grab the patch and be very difficult to move .
Molybdenum Disulphide has a high coefficient of friction against other materials but a low coefficient of friction against itself .
This is why it can grip to the barrel and bed into the pores of the steel but not build up on itself to any harmful degree but there is some build up going on for it to work as a friction modifier .
It does the same to the projectile as a result the atoms of Sulphur between the bore and projectile act as a friction modifier .
I don’t like to described it as a lubricant .
I believe what’s happening is , the projectile is introducing new molecules of moly into the barrel with every shot and for what ever reason there is a slight build up of free Moly on the surface of the deeper bedded Moly this build up stays about the same for at least 300 shots , which is as far as I have gone without cleaning .
This slight build-up is enough to allow the sulphur atoms within the moly on the projectile and barrel to slide over each other and reduce bullet to bore friction.
Also a property of Moly (MOS2) is that friction decreases as load and speed increase. The bonds between the Sulphur layers are weaker than the bonds between the Molybdenum layers. The covalent bonds of both are strong in the basal plane of the Lamellar structure. The “slip” occurs on the Sulphur atoms.
Even between highly loaded stationary surfaces the lamellar structure is able to prevent contact. In the direction of motion the lamellas easily shear over each other resulting in low friction. After a body has caused a sliding frictional movement against the Lamellar structure the particles line up in an end to end linear arrangement in the direction of movement that gives moly its load bearing ability.
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5297&stc=1&d=1203903381
Large particles best perform on relative rough surfaces at low speed, finer particles on relative smooth surface and higher speeds. Particle size affects load carrying ability. Large particle size carries more load but can create more abrasion. Friction is not affected by particle size.
Friction decreases as load and speed increase. Test results suggest that removing water vapor contamination decreases friction in molybdenum disulfide. *** Within its operating range Moly (MOS2) has superior load bearing and surface speed performance values as compared to Graphite or Tungsten Disulphide ***
This is the reason why it is important to achieve a good deep coating of Moly on the projectile because the projectile sacrifices most of its coating to the bore. A bad coating will run out of Moly as the projectile moves up the barrel and can result in an increase of copper fouling at the muzzle end compared to the chamber end.
I did notice some slightly darker and more obvious marks just on the lands of the barrel after about 200 shots , after thorough cleaning at 300 shots they had completely gone . This was observed with a doctors otoscope .
The thickness would have been microscopic but I believe that it was the slight build-up that I refer to above showing up a bit more at the lands.
Never believe that Moly will protect your bore from corrosion it will not exclude oxygen or moisture from the surface of the steel as well as an oil or grease based coating, clean and oil your barrel after shooting as normal, clean the oil out before shooting with patches as normal .
I believe that the section below shows that there is good scientific indication that it is possible for Moly to hold some moisture or other corrosive elements in intimate contact with the barrel if stored incorrectly and without proper cleaning the bore .
This is the only potential negative that I have experienced with Moly.
Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) is insoluble in water and unreactive toward dilute acids in its normal state.
MoS2 oxidizes very slowly in atmospheres up to 600° F. In these low temperature ranges it oxidizes more slowly than Tungsten Disulfide (WS2). In dry oxygen free atmospheres it functions as a friction modifier up to 1300° F.
Its melting point is 1185 °C,
It starts oxidizing in air at around 315 °C.
We need to ask, what is the flame temperature in the chamber and can it be considered an oxygen free environment. Research information has suggested that the temperature in the chamber and the first couple of inches of the barrel can reach 1400° F or more for a short period of time. Further more, oxygen is required to burn and the powder carries its own supply of oxygen.
This would tend to suggest that there is the potential for some oxidation of the Molybdenum disulfide ( MoS2) in the barrel.
Oxidation products would be formed in the chamber end of the barrel and carried by the passing of subsequent bullets along the barrel.
The most likely spots for oxidation to occur are the same areas likely to suffer from normal flame erosion; peaks and edges.
These are exposed to more of the hot gasses so the temperature can more closely approach the temperature required to produce oxidation products.
There is also the coating effect of the moly to consider.
It will have a protecting effect against some of the flame heat because the oxidation products are working at the surface of the lamellar structure where there is more potential oxygen.
I feel this will cancel out some of the erosion and as long as proper cleaning and lubricating happens after shooting it should limit the potential for any damage.
The oxidation products of Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) are :-----
Molybdenum trioxide (MoO3) and Sulfur dioxide. (SO2).
Whenever sulfur compounds are involved rising temperature excites the bonds that hold the various molecules together. Too much temperature breaks the bonds.
The breakdown products containing sulfur are not good and can cause corrosion . When sulfur compounds are heated they react with any oxygen present to make Sulfur dioxide (SO2) which reacts with water when present to make the primary product Sulfurous acid) H2SO3 (weak acid) and a lesser reaction product of SO3 (sulfur trioxide) which reacts with water to make H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) (very strong corrosive acid).
So, since there is H2O present from the combustion of the nitrocellulose powder at elevated temp, the O2 (oxygen ) and water could get a jump start on breaking down the MoO3 ( Molybdenum trioxide ) especially if some were in the vapor phase for a few micro seconds from the flash of the powder.
The interior barrel surfaces warming up would also support the reaction of the O2 and H2O with the MoO3 when present . Over time , atmospheric moisture ( humidity) could also react with any residual MoS3.
Molybdenum trisulfide ( MoS3) is potentially hygroscopic based on some reports from National Laboratory , Los Alamos USA and causes many of the friction problems in a standard atmosphere.
MoS3 is the less common form of the Sulfides of Molybdenum. It is most likely less stable than MoS2 and can break down. When it does, there is an extra sulfide atom looking to "mate" with something. It could be air or water or both together.
Molybdenum trisulfide is itself a lubricant in dry atmospheres.
Molybdenum trioxide (MoO3) is not abrasive on its own , “ but attracts moisture vapor contamination”. Sulfur dioxide (SO2) can react further in the presence of water vapor to produce acidic compounds like Sulfuric acid (H2SO4).”
The presence of the Sulfur Dioxide ( SO2 ) alone is enough to react with water vapor to cause concern without any of the other potential multi-valent reactions.
Moly powder in its normal state is not corrosive but there is a “ Potential “ for the reactions off its broken down chemical components to combine to assist corrosion.
Question to Industrial Chemist :---
“Would you say that there is a big possibility that after Molybdenum trisulfide (MoS3) is formed that this chemical could be the culprit that attracts the Water ( H20) from the air into reaction with Sulfur Dioxide ( SO2) to form Sulfurous Acid ( H2SO3) & Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4)?”
Chemists answer :---
“Most likely. The reaction product is going to be predominately H2SO3 (sulfurous acid - weak) but at the higher temps of burning powder it is hard to say how much extra H2SO4 is formed.
Any amount would not be good over the long run if it stayed in contact with the barrel. H2SO4 would just stay in the barrel and not evaporate. Some of the MoS2 may be protecting the barrel surface as it has filled in the microscopic pores ; that is why it is a lubricant in the first place.
Most likely the MoS2 could not provide a perfect barrier against corrosion.
If the MoS3 is co-mingled with the MoS2 or just on the surface of a relatively thin layer, the reaction could take place over time.
Regarding oxidation and temperature, look at it this way. You have overly excited molecules of Molybdenum and Sulfur "in heat". They want to mate with somebody else at elevated temperatures and share electrons to make themselves complete again. Well along comes some Oxygen (O2) molecules and maybe some Water (H2O). Some of the Moly will join with O2, some will find other molecules such as sulfides and link up with them to make Molybdenum Trisulfide ( MoS3). Some of the sulfides will link with some of the Oxygen (O2) to make sulfur dioxide.
Everybody is looking to find a mate. The molecules are breaking bonds . The situation is very dynamic.
If there is one product that has a lower final energy state and precipitates out, then everything goes that way and the side reactions are very limited. In this dynamic Moly situation some of the less stable combinations break down about as fast as they mate together. If one were to deprive the reaction environment of Oxygen (O2), the products would be different. As the temp comes down, the reactions may shift around and finally settle out with MoS2, MoS3, SO2, etc in various quantities. As the reaction products like SO2 wait around on the surface at the lower temps, they can react with H2O and make H2SO3 or the less amount of SO3 reacts with H2O to form H2SO4 .” End of quote.
Conclusion:-- It is obvious from the above that the Oxidation products of Moly have an affinity with moisture and Oxygen and that some are “ Hygroscopic ”. There is a real potential for harm to the barrel of the “ unprepared ” owner. Proper precautions should be taken to store firearms in the driest conditions possible. Clean barrels properly after a shooting session and lubricate or grease the barrel before putting it away.
If the gun is to be stored for the season then thoroughly scrub out as much moly as possible with bore solvents, JB paste, kroil etc. and grease the bore up well.
Inspect the bore from time to time during storage and patch it out and re lubricate.
Weapons that are used and stored in humid hot climates continually would be at a greater risk.
Stainless Steel barrels may have better resistance to potential corrosion but they are not immune. One should not dismiss any precautions just because you have a SS barrel.
Perspective:--
To put this all in context I must say that I am still going to use Moly (MOS2) in the same barrels that I have in the past. This new information has not changed the beneficial aspects that I have gained from using Moly for many years. I have always known that there was an “ affinity ” with moisture and I have observed the affects of not cleaning properly. This information is not designed to put fear into the moly user, quite the contrary.
The more you know about a subject the better you can use it to your advantage.
I hope this will allow people to make a more informed decision whether to use Moly and the correct purpose and conditions to use it in.
Pattern of use, Climate in your area, storage conditions, ability to clean regularly all play a part in the decision.
Experience has shown me that with care and correct use the risks of premature corrosion problems are minimal
A special thanks to Ron Teufel for providing chemical reaction information and proof reading of this section concerning the Oxidation products of Moly.
I would also like to thank Carl Porter for his help in providing information and being the catalyst to bring me to try for a better understanding of any potential down side to moly coating ( MoS2) and how to manage it.
Never substitute an uncoated projectile or a projectile with unknown coating material into a case with a powder load worked up for Pure Moly coated projectiles .
Moly will lower the chamber pressures for a given load so you will have to gently increase the load to get back to original velocity .
Moly is not a cure all for bad shooting guns if it shoots bad with uncoated it will probably do similar with coated .
Clean your barrel thoroughly before using Moly projectiles and if you like them don’t use uncoated ones in that barrel again .
Moly works best in shorter barrels as it tends to run out as it moves down the barrel if you get any fouling it will be worse near the muzzle . This can be fixed by making your coating process put on a good deep layer of moly , after you have finished coating take a projectile out into full sunlight and if you can see any coppery colour ( except in cannular ) through the moly coat then it’s not good enough . Also you can condition the bore before or during shooting , with moly slide , work it in with a back and forth rod action then loose patch out the excess . Look down the bore if you can see globs of moly slide it’s too much , patch it out and remove the excess . It's best to let the barrel dry for 5 minuets before shooting . I don’t bother with moly conditioning as my coating does all I need .
Moly has shown a decrease in the amount of deformation to the base of the projectile and a reduction in the depth of the engraving effect of the rifling after firing due to its load carrying Lamellar structure as explained above , this could explain why in America they have put forward theories that Moly increases the ballistic coefficient of projectiles . I can’t confirm this but I suspect that it does give a slight Ballistic Coefficient increase but is hard to measure.
Danzac has similar properties and performance and is easier to coat but its load carrying ability is inferior to Moly .
Pure Moly Coating .
Article 1.
Written by John Valentine 15 / 11 / 90 Copyright .
Revised and updated 07/ 12 /06
I started experimenting with moly greasing about 30 years ago and moly coating projectiles about 20 years ago now , using them in several center fires .
As far as I am concerned it works well for me .
During one of my tests I fired a CMC Howa 223 Rem , 300 times without cleaning and the accuracy at 300 rounds was just as good as it was at 30 rounds .
It had just returned from a two week trip where it fired 200 odd rounds without cleaning with any bore solvents just a wipe through with oil when I got home each night .
This was some years ago and under the same circumstances today , I would clean properly each day.
During coating , Molybdenum Disulphide and nothing else goes on the projectiles .
The tumbling process at 1.5 revolutions per second with 3 mm hard steel balls produces a different product to other commercial processes .
If done properly it results in a deep coating that doesn’t come off on your fingers .
I believe that pure moly coating will give increased barrel life , cooler barrel temperatures , greatly reduced copper fouling , reduced barrel cleaning , and increased accuracy , although I need to qualify this last statement .
I have found the following to be true in my barrels .
If you compare a 10 shot group from a clean barrel using moly projectiles against uncoated projectiles from the same clean barrel there generally will be little difference and I have noticed a tendency for the uncoated projectiles to group slightly tighter under these conditions .
The nature of the test favours the uncoated projectiles , but if you fire 50 rounds of both projectiles without cleaning at 20 to 30 rounds the uncoated projectiles will start to loose accuracy due to fouling and the moly projectiles will still retain accuracy way beyond that .
The nature of this test favours the Moly projectiles .
It takes a while for the moly to coat the barrel and settle down .
The results of a test depends on what test you do and how you analyse the results .
This is what I have experienced and anyone who is interested needs to try for themselves to see if they like Moly coating or not , but you need to Know what is on your projectiles , just because its black doesn’t mean its Pure Moly .
If you do try it , here are some of the things I discovered .
Never push a dry tight patch through a barrel that has used moly as it can grab the patch and be very difficult to move .
Molybdenum Disulphide has a high coefficient of friction against other materials but a low coefficient of friction against itself .
This is why it can grip to the barrel and bed into the pores of the steel but not build up on itself to any harmful degree but there is some build up going on for it to work as a friction modifier .
It does the same to the projectile as a result the atoms of Sulphur between the bore and projectile act as a friction modifier .
I don’t like to described it as a lubricant .
I believe what’s happening is , the projectile is introducing new molecules of moly into the barrel with every shot and for what ever reason there is a slight build up of free Moly on the surface of the deeper bedded Moly this build up stays about the same for at least 300 shots , which is as far as I have gone without cleaning .
This slight build-up is enough to allow the sulphur atoms within the moly on the projectile and barrel to slide over each other and reduce bullet to bore friction.
Also a property of Moly (MOS2) is that friction decreases as load and speed increase. The bonds between the Sulphur layers are weaker than the bonds between the Molybdenum layers. The covalent bonds of both are strong in the basal plane of the Lamellar structure. The “slip” occurs on the Sulphur atoms.
Even between highly loaded stationary surfaces the lamellar structure is able to prevent contact. In the direction of motion the lamellas easily shear over each other resulting in low friction. After a body has caused a sliding frictional movement against the Lamellar structure the particles line up in an end to end linear arrangement in the direction of movement that gives moly its load bearing ability.
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Large particles best perform on relative rough surfaces at low speed, finer particles on relative smooth surface and higher speeds. Particle size affects load carrying ability. Large particle size carries more load but can create more abrasion. Friction is not affected by particle size.
Friction decreases as load and speed increase. Test results suggest that removing water vapor contamination decreases friction in molybdenum disulfide. *** Within its operating range Moly (MOS2) has superior load bearing and surface speed performance values as compared to Graphite or Tungsten Disulphide ***
This is the reason why it is important to achieve a good deep coating of Moly on the projectile because the projectile sacrifices most of its coating to the bore. A bad coating will run out of Moly as the projectile moves up the barrel and can result in an increase of copper fouling at the muzzle end compared to the chamber end.
I did notice some slightly darker and more obvious marks just on the lands of the barrel after about 200 shots , after thorough cleaning at 300 shots they had completely gone . This was observed with a doctors otoscope .
The thickness would have been microscopic but I believe that it was the slight build-up that I refer to above showing up a bit more at the lands.
Never believe that Moly will protect your bore from corrosion it will not exclude oxygen or moisture from the surface of the steel as well as an oil or grease based coating, clean and oil your barrel after shooting as normal, clean the oil out before shooting with patches as normal .
I believe that the section below shows that there is good scientific indication that it is possible for Moly to hold some moisture or other corrosive elements in intimate contact with the barrel if stored incorrectly and without proper cleaning the bore .
This is the only potential negative that I have experienced with Moly.
Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) is insoluble in water and unreactive toward dilute acids in its normal state.
MoS2 oxidizes very slowly in atmospheres up to 600° F. In these low temperature ranges it oxidizes more slowly than Tungsten Disulfide (WS2). In dry oxygen free atmospheres it functions as a friction modifier up to 1300° F.
Its melting point is 1185 °C,
It starts oxidizing in air at around 315 °C.
We need to ask, what is the flame temperature in the chamber and can it be considered an oxygen free environment. Research information has suggested that the temperature in the chamber and the first couple of inches of the barrel can reach 1400° F or more for a short period of time. Further more, oxygen is required to burn and the powder carries its own supply of oxygen.
This would tend to suggest that there is the potential for some oxidation of the Molybdenum disulfide ( MoS2) in the barrel.
Oxidation products would be formed in the chamber end of the barrel and carried by the passing of subsequent bullets along the barrel.
The most likely spots for oxidation to occur are the same areas likely to suffer from normal flame erosion; peaks and edges.
These are exposed to more of the hot gasses so the temperature can more closely approach the temperature required to produce oxidation products.
There is also the coating effect of the moly to consider.
It will have a protecting effect against some of the flame heat because the oxidation products are working at the surface of the lamellar structure where there is more potential oxygen.
I feel this will cancel out some of the erosion and as long as proper cleaning and lubricating happens after shooting it should limit the potential for any damage.
The oxidation products of Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) are :-----
Molybdenum trioxide (MoO3) and Sulfur dioxide. (SO2).
Whenever sulfur compounds are involved rising temperature excites the bonds that hold the various molecules together. Too much temperature breaks the bonds.
The breakdown products containing sulfur are not good and can cause corrosion . When sulfur compounds are heated they react with any oxygen present to make Sulfur dioxide (SO2) which reacts with water when present to make the primary product Sulfurous acid) H2SO3 (weak acid) and a lesser reaction product of SO3 (sulfur trioxide) which reacts with water to make H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) (very strong corrosive acid).
So, since there is H2O present from the combustion of the nitrocellulose powder at elevated temp, the O2 (oxygen ) and water could get a jump start on breaking down the MoO3 ( Molybdenum trioxide ) especially if some were in the vapor phase for a few micro seconds from the flash of the powder.
The interior barrel surfaces warming up would also support the reaction of the O2 and H2O with the MoO3 when present . Over time , atmospheric moisture ( humidity) could also react with any residual MoS3.
Molybdenum trisulfide ( MoS3) is potentially hygroscopic based on some reports from National Laboratory , Los Alamos USA and causes many of the friction problems in a standard atmosphere.
MoS3 is the less common form of the Sulfides of Molybdenum. It is most likely less stable than MoS2 and can break down. When it does, there is an extra sulfide atom looking to "mate" with something. It could be air or water or both together.
Molybdenum trisulfide is itself a lubricant in dry atmospheres.
Molybdenum trioxide (MoO3) is not abrasive on its own , “ but attracts moisture vapor contamination”. Sulfur dioxide (SO2) can react further in the presence of water vapor to produce acidic compounds like Sulfuric acid (H2SO4).”
The presence of the Sulfur Dioxide ( SO2 ) alone is enough to react with water vapor to cause concern without any of the other potential multi-valent reactions.
Moly powder in its normal state is not corrosive but there is a “ Potential “ for the reactions off its broken down chemical components to combine to assist corrosion.
Question to Industrial Chemist :---
“Would you say that there is a big possibility that after Molybdenum trisulfide (MoS3) is formed that this chemical could be the culprit that attracts the Water ( H20) from the air into reaction with Sulfur Dioxide ( SO2) to form Sulfurous Acid ( H2SO3) & Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4)?”
Chemists answer :---
“Most likely. The reaction product is going to be predominately H2SO3 (sulfurous acid - weak) but at the higher temps of burning powder it is hard to say how much extra H2SO4 is formed.
Any amount would not be good over the long run if it stayed in contact with the barrel. H2SO4 would just stay in the barrel and not evaporate. Some of the MoS2 may be protecting the barrel surface as it has filled in the microscopic pores ; that is why it is a lubricant in the first place.
Most likely the MoS2 could not provide a perfect barrier against corrosion.
If the MoS3 is co-mingled with the MoS2 or just on the surface of a relatively thin layer, the reaction could take place over time.
Regarding oxidation and temperature, look at it this way. You have overly excited molecules of Molybdenum and Sulfur "in heat". They want to mate with somebody else at elevated temperatures and share electrons to make themselves complete again. Well along comes some Oxygen (O2) molecules and maybe some Water (H2O). Some of the Moly will join with O2, some will find other molecules such as sulfides and link up with them to make Molybdenum Trisulfide ( MoS3). Some of the sulfides will link with some of the Oxygen (O2) to make sulfur dioxide.
Everybody is looking to find a mate. The molecules are breaking bonds . The situation is very dynamic.
If there is one product that has a lower final energy state and precipitates out, then everything goes that way and the side reactions are very limited. In this dynamic Moly situation some of the less stable combinations break down about as fast as they mate together. If one were to deprive the reaction environment of Oxygen (O2), the products would be different. As the temp comes down, the reactions may shift around and finally settle out with MoS2, MoS3, SO2, etc in various quantities. As the reaction products like SO2 wait around on the surface at the lower temps, they can react with H2O and make H2SO3 or the less amount of SO3 reacts with H2O to form H2SO4 .” End of quote.
Conclusion:-- It is obvious from the above that the Oxidation products of Moly have an affinity with moisture and Oxygen and that some are “ Hygroscopic ”. There is a real potential for harm to the barrel of the “ unprepared ” owner. Proper precautions should be taken to store firearms in the driest conditions possible. Clean barrels properly after a shooting session and lubricate or grease the barrel before putting it away.
If the gun is to be stored for the season then thoroughly scrub out as much moly as possible with bore solvents, JB paste, kroil etc. and grease the bore up well.
Inspect the bore from time to time during storage and patch it out and re lubricate.
Weapons that are used and stored in humid hot climates continually would be at a greater risk.
Stainless Steel barrels may have better resistance to potential corrosion but they are not immune. One should not dismiss any precautions just because you have a SS barrel.
Perspective:--
To put this all in context I must say that I am still going to use Moly (MOS2) in the same barrels that I have in the past. This new information has not changed the beneficial aspects that I have gained from using Moly for many years. I have always known that there was an “ affinity ” with moisture and I have observed the affects of not cleaning properly. This information is not designed to put fear into the moly user, quite the contrary.
The more you know about a subject the better you can use it to your advantage.
I hope this will allow people to make a more informed decision whether to use Moly and the correct purpose and conditions to use it in.
Pattern of use, Climate in your area, storage conditions, ability to clean regularly all play a part in the decision.
Experience has shown me that with care and correct use the risks of premature corrosion problems are minimal
A special thanks to Ron Teufel for providing chemical reaction information and proof reading of this section concerning the Oxidation products of Moly.
I would also like to thank Carl Porter for his help in providing information and being the catalyst to bring me to try for a better understanding of any potential down side to moly coating ( MoS2) and how to manage it.
Never substitute an uncoated projectile or a projectile with unknown coating material into a case with a powder load worked up for Pure Moly coated projectiles .
Moly will lower the chamber pressures for a given load so you will have to gently increase the load to get back to original velocity .
Moly is not a cure all for bad shooting guns if it shoots bad with uncoated it will probably do similar with coated .
Clean your barrel thoroughly before using Moly projectiles and if you like them don’t use uncoated ones in that barrel again .
Moly works best in shorter barrels as it tends to run out as it moves down the barrel if you get any fouling it will be worse near the muzzle . This can be fixed by making your coating process put on a good deep layer of moly , after you have finished coating take a projectile out into full sunlight and if you can see any coppery colour ( except in cannular ) through the moly coat then it’s not good enough . Also you can condition the bore before or during shooting , with moly slide , work it in with a back and forth rod action then loose patch out the excess . Look down the bore if you can see globs of moly slide it’s too much , patch it out and remove the excess . It's best to let the barrel dry for 5 minuets before shooting . I don’t bother with moly conditioning as my coating does all I need .
Moly has shown a decrease in the amount of deformation to the base of the projectile and a reduction in the depth of the engraving effect of the rifling after firing due to its load carrying Lamellar structure as explained above , this could explain why in America they have put forward theories that Moly increases the ballistic coefficient of projectiles . I can’t confirm this but I suspect that it does give a slight Ballistic Coefficient increase but is hard to measure.
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