Custom brass and bullets

J

Joe S

Member
Has anyone had any experiance with this supplier?
I have been playing with a 6x45 lately and I`m either doing something wrong or there is no way to open up .223 brass to 6mm without ending up with a case that`s crooked as a dogs leg, and in dire need of turning. These guys advertize the cases and I`m thinking that might be the way to go if it is quality stuff.

http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/metric2.html
 
Joe,
Midway USA lists the same brass for $35.99 per 20 so since I see no quantity by the listing you reference I would assume it is per 20 also. Sounds kind of expensive to me, for what you get.

James
 
Chisolm said:
Joe,
Midway USA lists the same brass for $35.99 per 20 so since I see no quantity by the listing you reference I would assume it is per 20 also. Sounds kind of expensive to me, for what you get.

James
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Hmm, I didn`t see a count and was figuring it at 50 pc. 20 @ that price is a bit steep for my blood.

fire form ???
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I did a once fire after expanding the mouth but, the run out is as bad as it was on the new brass. I`m pretty sure the neck thickness is to blame and was hopeing to find a way to skip turning. The rifle is a Cooper M21 and I doubt I`ll get much in return from it other then straigher ammo. The way my luck runs I`ll find I need a new sizer after turning to get neck tension where it should be..
 
I have been playing with a 6x45 lately and I`m either doing something wrong or there is no way to open up .223 brass to 6mm without ending up with a case that`s crooked as a dogs leg,
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What do you mean here? What have you tried?
 
I have shot the 7 MM TCU for 10 years or so. It is a 223 necked up to 7 MM.

I have made a lot of brass for it by necking up the brass. Loss rate was low. I usually neck up to 6 MM first and then to 7 MM

Fire forming works even better. I use Unique, cream of wheat and a foam stuffer to cap it.

If your case did not come out true when you fire formed it you may have needed more pressure.

Octopus
 
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alinwa said:
What do you mean here? What have you tried?
Click to expand...

I`ve tried running a tapered expander in the case to open the mouths. Used Imperial as a lube on new Win and Hornady brass. Both showed ~ 0.005"-0.010" total runout after expanding.
I loaded them with a fairly stout load 26.5 H335/70gr Sierra and got nice straight brass from the chamber and, after going through the sizer minus the expander they still are straight.
Run the expander back in the necks and runout jumps back up. I`m thinking the brass is uneven in thickness and turning is the only cure. I`m not real excited about doing that much more work for a rifle that probaly won`t show any noticable gain, it shoots 0.4-0.5" at best as is, and don`t want to find I need new sizer to do the turned brass down to a reasonable ID.

Any ideas?
 
yes..why are you running the expander back thru the case >>
mike in co

Joe S said:
I`ve tried running a tapered expander in the case to open the mouths. Used Imperial as a lube on new Win and Hornady brass. Both showed ~ 0.005"-0.010" total runout after expanding.
I loaded them with a fairly stout load 26.5 H335/70gr Sierra and got nice straight brass from the chamber and, after going through the sizer minus the expander they still are straight.
Run the expander back in the necks and runout jumps back up. I`m thinking the brass is uneven in thickness and turning is the only cure. I`m not real excited about doing that much more work for a rifle that probaly won`t show any noticable gain, it shoots 0.4-0.5" at best as is, and don`t want to find I need new sizer to do the turned brass down to a reasonable ID.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...
 
mike in co said:
yes..why are you running the expander back thru the case >>
mike in co
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The expander has to be run through the case to expand it initially. The subsequent sizeing and expanding is being done this way because I found a long time ago running the expander IN a already sized case mouth seemed not to induce runout, where as expanding by pulling the expander OUT of a case mouth while resizing more often left some cases crooked. The case is sized with the expander stem removed, then followed with it re-installed and case run just enough to pass the button through the neck, no sizing done on this pass.
I did try just resizing as one normally would and the brass ended up with a lot of RO to start then changed to this trying to see if it would help. This is a std RCBS die that I have not a benchrest or custom die.

I started by rounding the new brass necks with a 223 sizer followed by the 6mm expander. Load shoot and then size all fired brass with a 6x45 die minus the expander and follow up running the expander only enought in the mouths to reopen them to the right ID and load as normal from there.
I only expand as a second step with dies/brass that seems to want to show runout to begin with. Most of the time I use them as they are designed, all in one step. I did try to use the die with the expander "loose" and it was centered before I used it when I 1st tried it so I don`t think it was crooked and the problem

I do not use an expander. Use Bullseye and a wax plug and fireform. Do not use a bullet.
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This may work for the initial expanding but, after fireing I will still need to size and expand the cases unless I drop $$ on a new bushing die or have Lee make a custom collet die which I`m not to eager to do yet.

What difference does it make if a bullet or plug is used or Bullseye or 4895? Both rely on pressure to expand the case and I`m getting the cases blown out with no measurable runout by simply using my initial development loads.

Fireing a loaded round that shows runout from expanding the new brass leaves a perfect fired case, the damage appears again though in the next sizeing/expanding process to leave the case mouth ready for seating a bullet. As I said I`m pretty sure the brass wall is uneven and stretching more on the thin side then the thick or warping in one direction or the other due to it.

The new brass isn`t too bad for cheap factory prior to me messing with it. The initial pass through a 223 die to round out the mouths leaves very straight 223 cases to start with, it is the pass with the 6mm expander that screws them up, 1st and every time
I`ve never sized up on a case before, just necked down, and had acceptible results on the couple I did that way. At the moment I`m leaning toward turning after the 1st fireing/expanding and see if that helps. I am just afraid the amount of runout showing will mean taking more off then I want and not leaving enough case wall to hold a bullet properly without a custom sizer, or cause other problems.

If it was just one brand of 223 brass I blame it. This is occuring with two different brands of parent brass
 
Joe,
On first look at your answers tell me you know more than the guys that are trying to help you. Listen to this before you jump off again. If you fireform as I suggested, you will only need to expand your neck only a few thousandths. That is the reason that I do not expand my necks or size my brass before fire forming. At this time your brass should be formed to your chamber. You should not need to expand further unless you are using a tight neck and need to turn your necks. I think I need more info.
Joe, take this in the right way. A lot of the guys on the forum have been around 25-40+ years and have faced your same concerns many times before.
Good luck
 
Butch, sorry if I`m coming off wrong, I`m just frustrated I guess. I don`t mean to.

I think I see where you are going with the fire forming using wax and pistol powder. Don`t try to rough form then fire form but, fire form straight from the bag then worry about resizing or neck ID? This will expand the wall more uniformly?
 
I get the impression that Joe's sizing die is the oversize and pull an expander back through type - and that's what he's saying causes the problem....??
 
Wilbur said:
I get the impression that Joe's sizing die is the oversize and pull an expander back through type - and that's what he's saying causes the problem....??
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Yep!
The die was free and being a poor retiree I`m loath to spend an extra $100 on another die if I can figure out a way to get this one working.
Don`t apppear it is going to happen thought at the moment.:(
 
Is your's a bushing die? If it is I would get a size or 2 larger bushing and sand or grind your expander to a much smaller diameter.
 
Joe S said:
Yep!
The die was free and being a poor retiree I`m loath to spend an extra $100 on another die if I can figure out a way to get this one working.
Don`t apppear it is going to happen thought at the moment.:(
Click to expand...

If you already have a neck turner and mandrel, you can turn the necks so they don't need expanding. I think you already knew that from an earlier post. If you choose this route, start off with extra required seating pressure so your cases will last longer in respect to neck tension.
 
Wilber would you expand as I have been, and turn prior to the 1st loading or turn the case while the neck is still .224" and then expand?

Will just touching them up be likely to do it or, should I turn them completely in your opinion? As I said I don`t want to get them to the point I can`t reduce the neck ID enough without a new die if possible.
 
Why not turn your necks and find a Wilson NS die that way you can still seat using the dies you have and will be able to adjust the neck tension as you need if you need to
 
Joe S said:
Wilber would you expand as I have been, and turn prior to the 1st loading or turn the case while the neck is still .224" and then expand?

Will just touching them up be likely to do it or, should I turn them completely in your opinion? As I said I don`t want to get them to the point I can`t reduce the neck ID enough without a new die if possible.
Click to expand...

Turn them after fireforming. It's a trial and error deal in my opinion. Sure, you can work out how much to turn off mathematically but it may be quicker to just do it. What you are looking for is a neck wall thickness such that the expander ball can barely be felt when it passes back through the neck. Do it on one case at a time until you get your turner set or you risk trashing all your cases instead of a few that are guaranteed trashed. Cut a skosh, fire the case, and load - repeat on the same case until the result is acceptable. If you overcut and the case won't hold a bullet, start over with another case.
 
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