Continuing from a deleted thread.

Here is a comment from one who was told to not ask my questions on this forum but to go to the Factory/Hybrid Rifles forum.

By far, the largest group of new shooters shoot the AR platform. I just checked the AR15.com forums and there were approximately 3,500 viewers on line at that moment on a Sunday evening. Many times there are much more.

I am sure many of you feel shooting an AR is below bench rest shooting. And maybe it is true that most AR rifles cannot achieve the accuracy of most rifles allowed on this forum. What you miss is how much fun shooting an AR can be. And this is what draws the thousands of participants to the AR15.com forum. Of course many of the people on that forum are posers to the nth degree. But it is a lesson to be learned if you want to attract a younger genre to this sport.

I too was a sales and marketing executive and spent many years understanding how to attract customers to a product. When a newcomer encounters the elitist attitude they are immediately turned off and loose interest.
 
Some Perspectives

Comparing AR Shooting to Benchrest is like comparing NASCAR to NHRA Drag Racing.
Both make use of "automobiles". Both are populated by highly competitive individules. Both require the untmost in Equipment and Driver talent to win.
But the truth is, they are very different. So different that not too many NASCAR Drivers are yearning to drive a Top Fuler, and I doubt Tony Shoemacher is that anxious to get into a Cup Car.
AR Shooting and Benchrest are far removed from each other. About the only thing they have in common is both use Firearms as the piece of equipment that the competitor uses.
Each has it's particular trait that makes it difficult to master. The truth be known, most AR shooters are much more in tune with the "Firearm Thing" and the whole "Gun Culture' than are Benchrest Shooters. As I have stated many times, I am not much of a "gun nut". The Benchrest Rifle is simply the piece of equipment that I use to compete.
Just as most AR Shooters have no interest in Benchrest, I have no interest in AR..........jackie
 
just me again

:D How would it go if when you draw your bench you shoot from you also draw your loading bench.Then #1 would be loading next to and meeting #50.# 50 meets # 1 and they may learn from #1.Generally the old boys club keep with the old boys club.Nothing wrong with how it is but the new guy would learn more by seeing more than one way of doing things,your mentor is great for being your mentor however nobody knows everything.
 
R.DesJardin said:
I work with hundreds, yes hundreds of dedicated hunters. They hunt everything that is here in our area, which is most everything in North America. Not one of them have any interest in BR. I ask why and they say I could never shoot a group that small. If we promote 1 small groups only we will scare shooters off. I continually try to get these guys many with custom built varmint rifles to come give it a try. Never a taker, this seems stange to me from an area were hunting is huge and with a population of 36,000 people there are only 3 groups shooters and 1 score shooter.
I could never shoot a group that small?
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A suggestion to the "I could never shoot a group that small?" is that if you happen to be at the range and someone is interested in what you are doing, let them shoot a group or two with your rifle. I had an ag teacher several years ago come out with his ag class and I let several of the class shoot some groups with one of my BR rifles. Even with no experience they all shot better groups than any of them had ever shot in their lives. Some of them even shot some pretty good groups in the .2 to .3" area. Nothing like someone shooting a good benchrest rifle to peak their interest in the sport. None of the class has ever shot a benchrest rifle again, but you can't ever tell they might someday.

To have much interest in benchrest in an area, you have to have a local club that will hold matches. Not many newcomers are going to drive 350 miles or more one way to shoot a benchrest match. Even more so, now with the price of fuel what it is. You have to have someone or preferably more willing to put in the work and time to build ranges, target frames, backers and host matches. Where there's a good local club, you'll see good interest in shooting benchrest. The range Mike Ratigan built in Mooreland is an example of this. He and maybe a few others built the range and they had a pretty good group of local shooters shooting benchrest. Some of the shooters even started traveling to farther matches like the SS and nationals. I noticed this year, that there were no matches at Mooreland for whatever reason. My guess is too much work for too long on not enough people helping put on the matches, but that's just a guess.

One of the draws to cowboy action shooting is that it doesn't take much of a place to hold matches. Some rural land with a backstop, some targets and they can hold matches. It's not that easy with benchrest as it takes more range equipment and facilities to host matches.
 
Untaped Natural Resourse

One of the biggest group's of people that has a interest in shooting , is the volunteers the crew that run the matches ,target pullers,cooks, ticket sellers, scorers, even spectators etc. and many go under appreciated . There could be a small match in the middle of a shoot just for them with a mentor to guide each one and maybe a small prize, that would be a nice memory they could go home with them after all there work , after all they wouldn't be there if there wasn't an interest

p.s. it might narrow the Ellette gap also

thanks, nick
 
Rangerat said:
Here is a comment from one who was told to not ask my questions on this forum but to go to the Factory/Hybrid Rifles forum.

By far, the largest group of new shooters shoot the AR platform. I just checked the AR15.com forums and there were approximately 3,500 viewers on line at that moment on a Sunday evening. Many times there are much more.

I am sure many of you feel shooting an AR is below bench rest shooting. And maybe it is true that most AR rifles cannot achieve the accuracy of most rifles allowed on this forum. What you miss is how much fun shooting an AR can be. And this is what draws the thousands of participants to the AR15.com forum. Of course many of the people on that forum are posers to the nth degree. But it is a lesson to be learned if you want to attract a younger genre to this sport.

I too was a sales and marketing executive and spent many years understanding how to attract customers to a product. When a newcomer encounters the elitist attitude they are immediately turned off and loose interest.
Click to expand...

Not being elitist at all when I ask you of all the forums on Benchrest Central, which forum would be best able to answer questions concerning the AR platform...

The Centerfire Benchrest forum, which is completely dominated by custom single shot 6mm PPC bolt action rifles or the Factory/Hybrid rifle forum? (Accuracy related discussions pertaining to factory and modified factory rifles)

I would hope you were politely informed that the Factory/Hybrid Rifle forum would be more qualified to answer your inquiries... not told as you stated... It seems that just about every new comer clicks on the Centerfire Benchrest forum without really knowing anything about the forums... you are not alone in doing this, it is quite common.

I would also think that the majority of Benchrest Centerfire shooters know very little about AR shooting...and that in no way reflects the quality of another shooting discipline. Being told about the other forums should not be looked at as elitist...
 
Lynn

Do you have any kids?I have 2 neither is intrested in the slightest in guns or shooting.I encourage & help them in their own intrests.I too started with my dad.Over the years he to has lost intrest now if or when he comes out its my turn to provide the gear.Dont expect your kids to have your intrests they just do their own thing.The nature of our game suits older shooters that find their original dicipline to physically demanding.But still enjoy shooting the window isn't very long till even BR is to much.This is obviously a generalisation. I also believe young guys like score because it is easier to understand & explain the objective,don't freak out guys I shoot group myself.Any local here that see any of my guns just think there a waste of money tell them you shoot paper and you get that funny sideways look.The majority of BR shooters would have shot their first group in one of the armed forces why not try targeting that market?
If you tried to describe the average BR shooter what would you find?:confused:
 
j mckinnie said:
ofIf you tried to describe the average BR shooter what would you find?:confused:
Click to expand...
An old sedate retiree like myself who has tried commercial aviation, motorcycle racing (Enduros), tournament Bass fishing and the usual gamut of Trap, Sporting Clays, Bullseye Pistol, Big Bore Handgun Silhouette, and a few other toy-heavy endeavors.

A shooter who is going to do anything other than go to the local gun club and "shoot benchrest" once or twice a year is one situation. If you are going to take in the biggies like the Super Shoot and the two Nationals, it takes more money and time than most are willing to expend. Sorry, but that are the facts. Now, for the few who get hooked compromises will be made to get neck deep in this sport.

If you come across someone who seems interested, by all means help them out all you can, but don't expect the world to flock to the Benchrest Gates.

Back to the original thoughts that began this and Jackies threads, I vote for the small group being the biggest incentive to new shooters. After all the Super Shoot pays $300 for the smallest group in each match, $200 for the second smallest and $100 for the third smallest group of each match. The IBS gives a neat enamel pin for each match winner and the NBRSA gives a nice string tie. IF the small group didn't mean something how did the above recognitions come about???
 
Mustafa

You wrote:

"There are ways to get the word out without an expensive campaign, but to start and for it to succeed, we need a change in perspective among the current BR boards and membership from where we stand today."

What changes in perspective would you suggest?
 
Hey guys, Im 28 and just getting started, dont even havea rifle yet but feel completely ADDICTED. Im still waitng for parts to arrive and make a final decision on a caliber but I think the reason younger people mite not be getting involved as much could be the money,time,and dedication it takes to even shoot any rifle accuratly.
 
Newbie here.

I come from a registered skeet shooting background that is suffering the same ills as BR. There are very few young shooters entering registered skeet. Recreational skeet is alive and well, but registered shooting is on the decline. Besides the usual suspects (time, money, and travel) registered skeet is a game of perfection. Lots of people get excited about it and don't realize what it takes to compete at AA level and leave registered skeet. Most go to sporting clays where dropping one bird will not make you an "also ran" so the fun factor is bigger. Other folks just get bored shooting he same target over and over. The persuit of perfection disease is not in them and never will be. After shooting the circuit for a few years, skeet became like a second job and I got to where I just didn't enjoy it.

I think most 20-30 year olds don't have the disposable cash for these types of games. They are raising families, buying houses, etc. I think cultivating the people who DO have the time, money and desire is the key. Sure, there are young'ns out there who are sponsored by mom and dad, but they are far and few between.

I suspect that there are a lot of recreational BR shooters out there like me who meet up on Saturday and shoot targets and the BS and then go home for lunch with the wife.

What I like most about the rifle shooters I have met is that they will bend over backwards to help a newbie like me.

Just my .02 Your mileage may vary.
 
I have to agree with rangerat

I am very new to this site as can be noted from my number of posts and I have to agree with Rangerat to some degree. I am a die hard hunter and shooter and in reading the centerfire forum I have seen a number of rookie questions answered reasonably politely in word, and between the lines it read "take your silly questions and your printed 700 action/Savage production gun elsewhere".

Most people have been very helpful in sharing knowledge but I have also seen casual shooters and the varmint/deer hunter types(could these be aspiring benchresters?) referred to by a number or disparaging nicknames like "weekend warriors" and other names, One can almost feel people looking down the side of their nose upon these potential benchresters. "Hey fellas, a few of us are gonna call ya names and we dont want to answer any stupid quetions but we would like to pay dues to join our club(not verbatim but the gist of it)". Maybe I am all wrong about this but Rangerat and I have apparently felt similar and I bet we are not the only ones. It sometimes has that exclusive "private golf club" or "country club" feel to it.

I dont believe for one minute that all folks are like that and most have been willing and generous with both knowledge and advice, It just sometimes seems that the price to be paid for that advice is being talked down to or treated like a second class citizen. I have sensed enough of an attitude from some to know they exist on this site.

No disrespect intented to any one and my apologies to any one that may be offended but its honestly what I have noticed or felt a few times here.

Otherwise, benchrest is very interesting to me and even if my production rifles or rebarreled semi-custom 700 will only shoot .5, I am still tryin to make it better and improve my shooting. Heck, I get all riled up if all my bullets will hide under a dime(very rare) from my factory 22-250 Abolt micro or my DPMS. I am still waiting for my 700 to get back with the new Krieger on it to see what it will do and then I might like to try BR or F-class. I love shooting small groups. Problem is, my idea of small is most BR guys idea of hideous, but I try my best with equipment I can afford.

Thanks,

Jamie

40 year old sole breadwinner in family of three @ 30,000$ a year.
 
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You know both sides are right and both attitudes toward the other side are wrong. Yes you need to shoot small aggs. to win a match, but each small agg starts with 1 small group. Small groups keep beginners trying, small aggs keep them coming back. The other thing is not everybody needs to or wants to compete at a National or Regional level and they have a good time shooting local events only, you make your choice and run with makes your boat float. I have a general question how many shooters who compete carry an extra rifle to a local or club match to catch a spectater and maybe get them to shoot ? I do. Do you?
 
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jaybic said:
I am very new to this site as can be noted from my number of posts and I have to agree with Rangerat to some degree. I am a die hard hunter and shooter and in reading the centerfire forum I have seen a number of rookie questions answered reasonably politely in word, and between the lines it read "take your silly questions and your printed 700 action/Savage production gun elsewhere".
Click to expand...

What is between the lines isn't "take your silly questions and your printed 700 action/Savage production gun elsewhere"...

it is, "your questions will be best answered on the Factory/Hybrid Rifle forum as that forum was created for that type of rifle".

Most new comers don't realize Benchrest Central is set up intentionally with different forums to cover different topics. Many think "Centerfire Benchrest" means any center fire used from a bench... they do not realize the difference between Benchrest and benchrest.... one has a capital B... None of this is elitist or looking down at anyone... it is simply trying to help by getting one into the correct forum to start with...

Perhaps Centerfire Benchrest should be renamed and placed at the bottom of the list...:;)

At any rate don't give up on the forum if you are interested in accuracy...:)
 
There is Nothing "Special" about Benchrest

Often, while I am practicing, shooters will come over and strike up a conversation. They tend to "marvel" at the tiny groups.
What I do is put it in perspective. Sure, the groups are tiny, but that is exactly what this contraption is supposed to do.
A good analogy is a typical NHRA Pro Stocker. You can Marvel at the idea that it will go 6.508 at 208 mph. But think about it. If it will not do that, of what use is it. You sure can't go get groceries in it. And, if it will not compete at the level it was designed for, it is even more useless. The car is nothing more than a accumilation of parts, designed to perform one function, in a Competitive Arena, very well
The same can be said for a Benchrest Rifle. It is built with one purpose in mind, to shoot competitive aggs in a Arena of Competition, that Competition being governed by some sort of Sanctioning Body. My Rail Gun might look real neat,and it will absolutly stack one bullet on top of another. On any given day, if the tune is right, it might be the most precision accurate Rifle on the Planet.
But, if it will not do that, of what use is it. Like the Pro Stock Car, The Benchrest Rifle has evolved into a very single purpose piece of equipment.This single purpose evolution makes it do what it does very well, but tends to render it usless for much of anything else.
Of course, just like the car, the "driver" of the Benchrest Rifle must also be up to the task. But that is a different subject.
Just as the Pro Stock Car sacrifices all other aspects of "automobile performance" for the single purpose of getting down the 1/4 mile as quickly as possible, the Benchrest Rifle sacrifices all other aspects of "Rifle Performance" for the ability to shoot competitive aggs in Competition.
It does what it does because that is what it is designed, and built, to do. No more, no less....jackie
 
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I only have one good rifle, so I only take one to the range. If there are other shooters there, they usually look at my equipment and are curious. I offer to let them shoot, and they really like the consistency of the shots. I then offer to work with their hunting rifles, and to try to ring the best accuracy from them using their cases, and reloading for the one load that the rifle likes. If I can get the rifle to shoot one inch groups consistently, I feel that I have done some good.
At our club, we have a factory category, and often some of the shooters will be shooting reloads based on the work that I have done with them. It is frustrating to see them not take the next step and move up to benchrest. I will keep trying, but they often are so happy with a one inch group that the necessity to shoot smaller ones isn't there.
 
Small group idealism..

Recently at our club match an "old time" shooter made the comment about one of our absent shooter that "held the club record" of shooting a .176 group at 200 yards during one of our unregistered fun matches (which the small group shooter did not win)...That same "old time" shooter failed to recognize that the club record for highest score in that some match,(which has been held since the late 70s) was held by one of the people he was telling that story to...:mad:
This is the mentality that confuses me..because this "old timer" probably couldn't tell you who held the records for best Grand Agg or High Score at our local club even though he (the old timer) has been involved with and kept the records for eternity..:rolleyes:
It amazes me that the small group syndrome holds more collateral than the overall match record..:confused:
Go figure.???
 
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j mckinnie said:
Do you have any kids?I have 2 neither is intrested in the slightest in guns or shooting.I encourage & help them in their own intrests.
The nature of our game suits older shooters that find their original dicipline to physically demanding.
But still enjoy shooting the window isn't very long till even BR is to much.This is obviously a generalisation.
I also believe young guys like score because it is easier to understand

If you tried to describe the average BR shooter what would you find?:confused:
Click to expand...

Mr. McKinnie, You'r right on the money. Unless one is an addict, BR is boring, TV or otherwise totally unwatchable and most definitelly not a shooting sport for young people.
In the BR a gentleman can be a winner or a record holder many times over, but he may be unable to even finish a single original discipline.

The aim should be directed towards the middle aged and the older generation of the ex discipline shooters. They are more likely to have the money, they'r more likely to find the boring BR nature entertaining, not physically demanding and with the right attitude they can shine on the top of the World once again.

Con
 
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