Continuing from a deleted thread.

M

Mustafa Bilal

New member
When I look down the shooting line and see that most of the other shooters are my age (55) or older, I worry about the future of BR. I realize that we are not going to attract 20 and 30 year olds very often into the sport, but I’d settle for a slow and steady stream of 40+ year olds coming into the sport. Newcomers are the lifeline of any sport, association and/or club.

BR as a whole has a problem with branding, positioning, marketing and communications. I know that because that is what my company does for corporate clients who are experiencing similar internal and external challenges. We have to make it easier for new shooters to first experience, learn to appreciate and participate in BR. That means we have to not forget why shooters gravitate to BR to begin with. Shooting small groups still remains to be the primary reason for what we do, whether new or a veteran. I see no useful or reasonable purpose to downplay small groups or warn people of the difficulty of a sport. I also see no reason to not reach out to the rest of the shooting community to attract new members. The notion that they will find us, or that they will come to us if they really want to shoot BR is a faulty assumption. Our ranks are guaranteed to continue to diminish if we follow that school of thought.

The way I look at it, if you want to do something truly difficult, go shoot a biathlon. But if you want to shoot miniscule groups under varying conditions, get close to the pinnacle of accuracy and enjoy yourself in the company of like minded individuals, then BR may just be the ticket for you. That might be a good starting point for bringing people in, getting them to string a few small groups together over time, and start sharing in on the agg trophies to become fully participating members. There are ways to get the word out without an expensive campaign, but to start and for it to succeed, we need a change in perspective among the current BR boards and membership from where we stand today.

Mustafa
 
Mustafa

I saw Jackie’s post as a warning to new shooters not to jump on the next new thing because of one good group. It’s not bad advice no matter how good the cartridge may be.

As far as new shooters go the desire to shoot small groups is the only thing that gets them in the sport. They will figure out how to shoot aggs later. I’ve never seen a new shooter pull out targets and say look at this agg, but he will pull a small group out of his billfold.

Getting new shooters in is great, but we also need to keep the ones that we have. This past year we (Billy and I) pulled a shooter back from the brink that was ready to quit. He was fed-up with not being able to get his equipment to shoot. After Billy and I went through his equipment and a couple of practice session at my place he is doing very well. If you see someone really struggling throw them a rope.

Bart
 
Mustafa, I like the tone of your post. Your last statement about doing "get the word out without an expensive campaign" is the only thing about BR that would be inexpensive. Perhaps the reason for the decline of membership and the older people participate is money and time? I don't know how you over come the two problems?
 
Attraction

I work with hundreds, yes hundreds of dedicated hunters. They hunt everything that is here in our area, which is most everything in North America. Not one of them have any interest in BR. I ask why and they say I could never shoot a group that small. If we promote 1 small groups only we will scare shooters off. I continually try to get these guys many with custom built varmint rifles to come give it a try. Never a taker, this seems stange to me from an area were hunting is huge and with a population of 36,000 people there are only 3 groups shooters and 1 score shooter.
I could never shoot a group that small?
 
Look at the over all

If you show them the over all winning aggs, they will feel they have a chance. I tell prospective shooters, that if their gun will shoot a 3/8" group, they could win some targets. Most of them feel their gun is capable of doing that. Some try and come back, some try and buy better equipment and some just go away.
 
Victor and I went to the RoseBud range one day. There was four hunters sighting in their rifles. Vic said "Don't talk to them . " We had two 6 PPC Benchrest rifles to pratice for a match-it was a beautiful summer day and fine conditions.

One had made a wooden rifle rest-he was a carpenter I believe .
They would fire a few groups and then they would all cluster around the fired targets and discuss the results . No windflags......

After overhearing a few comments about strange "flyers" Victor had enough and says "The wind will push a 747 around -what do they think it will do to a bullet !! "

Then he goes over and snags the culprit . He sits him down behind his 6 PPC and says "Shoot when I tell you."
The shooter then puts five rounds into under .5 and they all cluster around checking out the target.
Then Vic showed them the range flags and our flags. A good time was had by all and those hunters sure learned a lot .
Where were they suposed to learn anything about shooting and wind -in Guns & Ammo magazine ?

I still laugh every time I remember Victor and that day -we were all at that point once.

My first exposure to a Benchrest was when I met Al Mirdoch in Calgary. I bought an Unertal scope from him. Then on 1982 I was at the Namaka range late one day checking the zero on my 25/06 and Al was there shooting a Witchata 1375 barreled by F. Pindell in 6 PPC.

I watched him put five rounds into an extremely small group at 100 yards-only the fourth shot went very slightly high and opened up the caliber sized hole on the target. Conditions were perfect-dead calm.

I didn't say anything at the time but I phoned him up when I got home and bought that rifle.

I got into shooting in Boy Scouts in Quebec many years ago . Members of the local range took the time and effort to show us how to shoot .22lr Match rifles. (Lapua match at .63 Cdn /50 rounds)

The people that I met here introduced me to trap shooting , handloading and centerfire rifles .

I have always been fortunate in finding mentors and people willing to take some time to educate me in shooting .


Take an extra rifle and bags when you go to the range . Maybe you will run into some one that would like to try a few groups with a Benchrest rifle.....

For the cost of a few components you could put a big smile on a new shooters face.

Glenn:D
 
There seems to be an area in BR shooting that is overlooked.
A '"CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM" . The new shooter (new to BR) sees he/she has to compete against the top dogs at his/her clubs. Most shooting disciplines have a class system ie; trap-skeet-sporting clays-hi-power rifle-palma rifle etc. etc. etc. New shooters are very intimidated by having to competet against "everyone", instead of shooting against those with little or no experience like themselves.

Think about it !

Gary.
 
The mindset should be that he's competing against himself and conditions .
If this was easy it would not be much of a challange.
It's not a computer game.

It's all shooting and anything that he learns here can be applied to varmint and big game .

Glenn:D
 
Gary;
There is a strong downside to your theory. Any "classification" system is almost always accompanied by those that are more than willing to take advantage of that system. As hard as it is to believe, a "trophy" is something that certain personalities will sell their soul for. This is in line with the reason that group matches have moving backers. The principal reason that the great shooters are the best is they made the commitment to the game and then put in the labor to get it done. Strangely, a large number of these folks are competitive in most every thing they do in their life. There seems to be a shortage of stick-to-it-ness these days.

Mike Swartz
 
One last shot

It’s not about arguing small groups vs. aggs if we are looking to hold current membership and increase the ranks of new members. Nor is it about presenting BR as a tough sport, because in the grand scheme of things, it is neither. You can be old or young, fit or out of shape, brilliant or marginal shooter to get into the action and enjoy yourself. It is challenging, entertaining and the ultimate in the accuracy game. Of course, to attain the highest levels of success is difficult as with anything else one takes on seriously in life. But I regard all these as attributes and selling points of BR, not as negatives.

One has to dangle the right bait in front of the right fish and that’s all about shooting small groups. BR is accuracy, which equates to small groups. Consistently small groups equates to winning aggs. But one has to learn to walk before running. BR is not for everyone but we have to appeal to those that do appreciate accuracy by exposing them to these positive aspects and possibilities of BR. There are number of tactics that can be used to get the word out.

Before taking on a rebranding, repositioning and/or marketing project, there needs to be an internal aspect to it. It involves the desire to change, much soul searching, some discomfort before change can be made. Reasonable goals have to be set, strategy and tactics need to be defined, committees formed, and leaders and volunteers need to be appointed. It may sound simplistic or impossible or perhaps idealistic, but it works!

At this point in time, I don’t really see much of this happening unless BR people stop arguing about every single point that’s put out there, be flexible and decide to get on the bandwagon to make a difference.

I know it is a stretch but… Einstein said;

"everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."

That is a version of the K.I.S.S. principle that applies to BR…”Keep it small & simple”. I really think we can do this if we all think it is important enough.

Mustafa
ps. I promise to not bore you with this mumbo jumbo again.
 
This topic is discussed - -

at least once each year and sometimes more. There seems to be two schools of thought, 1. The bravado thing about folks wanting easy wins and 2. the suggestion that there might be a better way via a classification system.

If a classification system is to work, it will have a maximum win, kind of requirement so that once someone has "Won" a few times, they are graduated upward.

Would it make a difference? I don't know. I know it does in other sports but BR isn't a lot like most other sports. One thing is for sure, I have seen new people come and go since I began in 99. Thankfully, the ones who keep coming back stick with it for a while at least, otherwise, when the oldies quit, the sport would die.

Truth be known, there aren't many venues that could accomodate big numbers of shooters at every shoot. If 70 or 100 new shooters showed up at every shoot, the folks running shoots would be exasperated. Most of the venues offering BR shooting are small and big numbers would make for very long days. I don't think most people would want that.
 
Mustafa Bilal said:
When I look down the shooting line and see that most of the other shooters are my age (55) or older, I worry about the future of BR. I realize that we are not going to attract 20 and 30 year olds very often into the sport, but I’d settle for a slow and steady stream of 40+ year olds coming into the sport. Newcomers are the lifeline of any sport, association and/or club.

BR as a whole has a problem with branding, positioning, marketing and communications.Mustafa
Click to expand...

Mr. Mustafa Bilal, at your age of 55 Benchrest may mean the World to you, but for 20-30 year old there is no shooting that's more boring then the Benchrest is.
It's foolish to think and to expect a 20 year old to sit behind a HG machine and drill a hole in the hole over and over and be enjoying it for long.

Con
 
New shooters

I was very happy to bring a new shooter to BR over the winter. He shot my rifle a few times, got hooked and bought a rifle of his own. I helped with a spare press, rear bag, Kelbleys rings, dies, powder, and even bullets from my own stash. The guy was shooting 2's on a regular basis at 200 yds over the winter and early spring!
Next thing I know, the press and bag etc. come back to me and I find out the guy sold the rifle.:(
He's now spending on BSA Martini's and old black powder cartridge rifles that he can shoot whenever he wants. I think the pressure to shoot against Hall of Fame shooters right off the bat took it's toll before the first match.
What a shame. The rifle was a shooter, and the shooter was good.
BA
 
Con Cross said:
Mr. Mustafa Bilal, at your age of 55 Benchrest may mean the World to you, but for 20-30 year old there is no shooting that's more boring then the Benchrest is.
It's foolish to think and to expect a 20 year old to sit behind a HG machine and drill a hole in the hole over and over and be enjoying it for long.

Con
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr. Cross, I believe that's what I said in my post as well.

MB
 
I guess its time for my perrenial reply. I went to the range today. I thought about Jackie's post. I thought about Mustafa's post. I thought about what everyone dances around every year when this topic comes up, but never says -- OK, I say it -- everytime.

Benchrest is not for everyone. It is a sickness. A disease. You have to be hooked like an addict to keep up with it. It takes a LOT of time. It takes LOT of effort. And, it takes a lot of money to compete at the highest level. It is not for everyone. My brother, who is an avid shooter and hunter, thinks its as boring as watching paint dry. He's a damn good shot and can shoot small groups and punch hole where he aims, but has NO COMPUNCTION to shoot a BR match. He's not alone, only a tiny percentage of the total shooting population likes doing what we do, although I don't have the figures, I'd wager that the percentage of BR shooters vis-a-vis the total shooting population has remained constant through the years, so the more shooters we have on total, the more benchrest shooters we will have.

Every year, at least out here on the L coast, we lose ranges. When we lose ranges, we lose shooters of every description, including active and potential benchrest shooters. Most BR shooters are like me and their personal sickness grew from factory rifles to semi custom varmint rifles to full blown BR rifles and ultimately rail guns.

But my point is that if we want to stop losing shooters, we have to stop losing ranges. We have to change the growing negative tide against the shooting sports in general.

My solution then, is to take people you know shooting. Neighbors and co-workers are great starts. Start with plinking. Graduate to targets. Pistols, rifles, semi-autos, hell full auto if you got them (legally of course), get the person thinking about how much fun shooting is and you might just end up with a new BR partner. At least you might end up with a new shooting partner or somone else who doesn't buy into the anti-gun rhetoric.

Slightly different spin this time, but the message is the same. If everyone recruited one new BR shooter, our ranks would immediately double. The next time someone comes up to you at the range and asks about your gun, loading stuff, etc., take the time to talk to them. Let them shoot your stuff. You've dangled the bait with all your nifty stuff. Now its time to set the hook. WHAM -- another addict.
 
I'm guessing this is about Jackie's post.......

A view from the outside, in defense of Jackie.

I'm basically a non-competitor because I'm in the middle of raising my family. I've been to the IBS Benchrest School, I've been to a few matches.....and I'll go to many more BECAUSE it's a no-holds barred, get up and swing with the Big Boys sport and ONLY because of that.

I have ZERO interest in dumbing the sport down with "classes" or divisions.

I have ZERO interest in shooting against someone else who's "in my class".

I have ZERO interest in "competing with myself" ...... (I'm a fisherman but not a Master Baiter :D )

I am only interested in comparing myself with The Gold Standard, the best.

The only thing that piques me is the pursuit of consistent accuracy and this simply means 100-200 or even 300 Group or Score. In the aggregates. I'm shooting the 600yd matches that occur in my area and will support them every one but there's too much luck involved for my taste........... IMO 100/200 Group and Score are "pure" games. On any given relay you will be competing on a level playing field, PERIOD! There are no "judges", there are no "classes"....... there's just YOU with your rifle against THEM with theirs.


This is what draws me. And yes this has drawn me since I was 20yrs old, I'm now 46 and on the brink of having my life together enough to shoot BR. This is simply about time and disposable income and them occurring concurrently...... AND about family....... sorry guys but until now you've all been outranked by my FAMILY, my kids specifically. My wife loves the fact that I/we shoot, she actually reserved a slot for me at the Super Shoot 6-7yrs ago and I couldn't do it. If we weren't raising kids we'd be at matches.


I WILL shoot in this environment when life dictates that I can and I guess if the sport is dead by then ( HBR already is around here, just as I got a really cool HBR setup put together ;) ) then I'll try some "Sniper Matches" or Egg Shoots or something......... With my BR rifles :) .........Or by modifying my BR rifles to compete in the sport available. This is exactly what I've done to compete in 600yd BR, I've chopped up a perfectly good Borden HV 6PPC and made it into a 17lb "6X47L" which seems now to be competitive.

I can't even understand competing in ANY sport with purposely inferior equipment. No matter who we are and no matter what we do we will ALWAYS shoot/drive/compete at whatever level we can afford. I feel that trying to tempt or lure people in by changing the sport of Bench Rest will accomplish nothing but the death of the sport. The folks who're exposed to it and drawn to it's peculiar charms WILL COME.....

Some folks likes shotguns

Some folks likes cowboy action shooting

Some folks likes longrange Tactical or Sniper competitions

some folks likes Practical Pistol or IPSC with Hi Cap pistols

Some folks likes racegunning revolvers or fast draw

Some folks likes hamhocks.......



All the dangling lures in the world don't get me to shoot certain disciplines nor to hit a little white ball quietly nor to ride upon some four-legged critter with a bat.........nor even to turn left fast. I like shooting little holes in paper.



AND...... to a real competitor it's posts like Jackie's that really whet the whistle. REAL competitors aren't "scared off" by difficulty, they're intrigued by it. The dilettantes will always be just that, dilettantes. And the whiners will always be whiners.


And the operators will always be there, getting it done :)



opinionby


al
 
BTW I doubled on Marcelli.......

Any similarity or anything that can be taken as a comment on the thread need be considered separate from Mike's post. ONLY because I wrote mine without Mike being yet a part of the thread.


al
 
Benchrest comes to those who want to's...

What a shame.....

Ultimately yes Bryan, but the guy was "Shown" the way by a dedicated Benchrest shooter... Top's in equiptment and in description of preparation of equiptment/shooting techniques... Still he felt he couldn't compete at a high level..EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME.. Sounds a bit too EGO related to me (can't stand not to win)...... Ya done good in the end Bryan.

Benchrest AIN'T fer everybody ..... To some it's "boring too easy"...!!!!! For these personalities.. I say, here's my gun ready to go, "please show me a .100 is "easy"".......... To some it's I can't shoot that small "even with that fancy painted gun"! ....

Mr. Bilal and Mr. Schmidt Both have solid valid points... I agree and disagree with both...

but for 20-30 year old there is no shooting that's more boring then the Benchrest is.
It's foolish to think and to expect a 20 year old to sit behind a HG machine and drill a hole in the hole over and over and be enjoying it for long. Con

Even though I do believe Mr. Con is correct... The youth is too wrapped up in INSTANT gratification/satisfaction... Some with the attention span of a sparrow....... But I know of a few youth shooters whom have taken to Benchrest with a fever..! But can't shoot too often cause there future (going to college) occupation takes first priority... But will shoot more often in the near future cause they got the Want Too's..!

To the point..... It's the "gotta want too's"..... The new shooter has to have the Gotta Want Too's in my opinion... I believe no one can be taught this...

The people who WANT to shoot Benchrest will find the sport.... BRC is just one means of getting out the "word"... Thanks Wilbur! :)
cale
 
Mike Marcelli said:
Benchrest is not for everyone. It is a sickness. A disease. You have to be hooked like an addict to keep up with it. It takes a LOT of time. It takes LOT of effort. And, it takes a lot of money to compete at the highest level. It is not for everyone. My brother, who is an avid shooter and hunter, thinks its as boring as watching paint dry. He's a damn good shot and can shoot small groups and punch hole where he aims, but has NO COMPUNCTION to shoot a BR match. He's not alone, only a tiny percentage of the total shooting population likes doing what we do.

Mr. Mike Marcelli, there're thousands if not millions just like your brother. Benchrest is an addiction sickness representing only the tiny percentage of the total shooting population.
How many times one has to shoot 0.1" group and still try to improve on it? When to the rest of the shooting millions of people even a 0.5" is just one hole.

BR is an art and as boring as it is, it deserves full support and recognition.

Con
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top