Cleaning a barrel after shooting 8208 Pull Down

Plastic......a great description for the fouling that occurs with XBR. Seems like Butches does better at removing it too. You can really feel it with a bronze brush for 1 to 3" past the throat. Don't let that plastic sit between shoots, else, you will get a big one. Not the "One" you want either.
 
ok...just cause
typically i clean with two wet patches of gm tec followed by a dry patch or two, and then go to a copper cleaner......
for those that cannot find tec , try any car maker and ask for a top engine cleaner...subaru has one.
mike in co
 
This is getting interesting. To me anyway. Something i havent ever thought about is just how clean 133 really is. Maybe this isnt such a good thing? I would seem that a little fouling would actually protect a barrel, and prohibit the steel from picking up the copper? Thats something i havent ever given much thought to. As far as carbon. i would have to think a good cleaning regiment with Butches and a bronze brush should do? I havent ever shot any coated bullets. I dont have the equipment to apply it either. Maybe i need to start thinking about using some type of bullet coating?
I am really excited about this pull down stuff thats going around. It seems to hold a tune much better than N133, but it really is a little early to state this for sure. One last thing i will add, that some might find interesting is the fact that i went almost 40 rounds with out cleaning my barrel with the pull down powder last time out. I didnt do this on purpose, but i forgot to pack the cleaning rod, so i had no choice. Accuracy didnt suffer, even in the least!!!
 
Hi Bob,
The old GM TEC came in a can. Know someone that has some. After Barry Sotoro closed all those Dealerships(which is another story). Some friends were helping clean out the dealership and came across a case. 24 cans.
The new stuff is environmentally safer. And comes in a plastic bottle. Does not work the same. There is a formula of other things to add to it....
This was discussed on BC last winter. Some of the old guys think, Subaru TEC, is very close to the old stuff.
But, I know someone with a bore scope who did some experimenting.
The new Shooter's Choice Aqua Clean or Bore Tech Eliminator will clean the carbon.
The VP of Shooter's Choice was handing the stuff out for free. At the Super Shoot. He made a comment about putting some Lube/oil down the barrel after cleaning.
WE think it cleans too good. But, it gets the job done. Use it with a nylon brush. It will start to squeak real loud. That might be when it is clean.
Both products look the same, smell the same, clean the same.
look for PM
 
Boyd Allen said:
jo191145
Some time back, Skeetlee observed that XBR seems to do better if he doesn't let the fouling cool off for too long during a match, while waiting for a condition. I see that you seem to attribute some special characteristics to its fouling as well, with the reference to plastic. Have you found this to be the case with all the Australian manufactured powders that you might have tried? Also, do these powders seem to require different cleaning? I am curious about your choice of the word plastic.
Boyd
Click to expand...

I found exactly that using XBR in several rifles. Keep pumping them down the tube an it aggs just fine. Hold off for 60 seconds and the small flyers commence.
1-3 rds quickly and it settles back into the group. My reference to plastic was not originally coined by me. Another poster used the term "Green Plastic Army Men".
I found that phrase to fit my own expieriences perfectly.
Clean a barrel using XBR and the last dry patch will feel very sticky running down the bore. YMMV
I ask of my barrels to hold accuracy for 100rds without cleaning. Not normal BR tactics. Not normal BR accuracy either but it fits one of the games I play.
 
skeetlee said:
This is getting interesting. To me anyway. Something i havent ever thought about is just how clean 133 really is. Maybe this isnt such a good thing? I would seem that a little fouling would actually protect a barrel, and prohibit the steel from picking up the copper? Thats something i havent ever given much thought to. As far as carbon. i would have to think a good cleaning regiment with Butches and a bronze brush should do? I havent ever shot any coated bullets. I dont have the equipment to apply it either. Maybe i need to start thinking about using some type of bullet coating?
I am really excited about this pull down stuff thats going around. It seems to hold a tune much better than N133, but it really is a little early to state this for sure. One last thing i will add, that some might find interesting is the fact that i went almost 40 rounds with out cleaning my barrel with the pull down powder last time out. I didnt do this on purpose, but i forgot to pack the cleaning rod, so i had no choice. Accuracy didnt suffer, even in the least!!!
Click to expand...

Skeet
I'm not an HOF BR shooter. Far from it. The first thing I learned attempting to make factory barrels shoot accurately is fouling "bore condition" is everything.
Bore condition must remain constant. Accumulate copper or carbon and accuracy will first suffer then disappear entirely.
Too clean may give copper depending on the barrel.
Too dirty will steadily accumulate carbon.
Custom handlapped barrels are less sensitive than factory tubes but the scenario remains.
Most BR shooters using 133 clean religously. They shoot a clean bore condition. Some barrels may be able to run a full match without cleaning but most won't.
My ol PPC can run 133 for about 50rds then fall apart. That was two years ago. No idea about now.
It may be something for most folks to laugh at, but its something I pay close attention too.
 
I find that different barrels "like" different bore conditions.

Some time back, a friend, who is an avid long range varmint hunter, got a bore scope. (Those of you who have one know what I am about to write.) At first it seemed that anything that he saw in a barrel, no matter how small had to be removed. After becoming more experienced he finally arrived at the conclusion that cleaning to bare steel was not needed, given that he wanted his barrels to last for as long as possible, and that perfectly clean required the use of abrasives, more frequently than he liked. After he became more experienced, he began to develop some judgment about what is important, and what is not. I call his earlier condition "bore scope disease". The truth is that you do not have to get a barrel perfectly clean for it to shoot well, just clean enough, so that it at the same starting place each time. I clean my 6PPC barrels less than I used to, and I get fewer surprises. I do pay particular attention to the end of the neck part of the chamber and throat when I clean, since accumulations in that area can cause problems. So far, with 133, Butch's, patches, and bronze brushes, my barrels look good when they are scoped. As far as the relationship between hard carbon and copper goes, it has been the conventional wisdom that in a smooth barrel, carbon accumulation will strip copper from bullets, and that if ineffective cleaning methods are used, alternating layers of carbon and copper will result. This used to be seen, a lot more often, when less effective bore solvents were the rule, and 133 was not in the powder mix. Back then, no one that I knew had a bore scope, and a home made copper solvent called blue goop, that was made with (cringe) 28% ammonia, was used by some shooters to deal with copper that had accumulated due to the ineffectiveness of off the shelf bore cleaners. Then Marksmans Choice, later renamed Shooters Choice, and Sweets became available, and at that point the use of strong home brew cleaners started to diminish. BBS came along later, and is what I currently use.
 
Pay me now, or pay me later

zippy06 said:
The new Shooter's Choice Aqua Clean or Bore Tech Eliminator will clean the carbon.
Click to expand...
I like Eliminator because you can use it indoors without the ammonia odor. But it doesn't get ALL the carbon out. As I recall, the point has been made on this forum that carbon gets baked onto the first few inches of the barrel, and resists removal by anything other than abrasives. Tony B's cleaning procedures support this (JB or Iosso after 60 shots).

I found this to be true in my 30BR. For almost two years and about 4000 shots, I cleaned with Eliminator and no brush. Accuracy was falling off. Then I got a bore scope. The first 8-10 inches of the bore looked like the Bonneville Salt Flats in August. I lost track of how many times I JB'ed the bore this winter, but now only about 4 inches look terrible and some of its accuracy has returned. (The barrel was used before I got it, so with potentially 'way over 4000 rounds, it is just worn out.) Maybe I have Boyd's "bore scope disease" ;), but seems like baked-on carbon is a "pay me now, or pay me later" kind of thing. Either you clean it out regularly, or you are left with a bigger job later.

(Or, in the case of the 30BR, you could shoot the barrel for 3000+ rounds and then trash it. That could be the "less work" option.:rolleyes:)

Cheers,
Keith
 
I have friends that have gone the "I'm no going to brush" route, but try as they might, in every case but one,(and he doesn't clean at the range) they all have gone back to brushing...based on what a bore scope told them. If I am cleaning at home, and have the time, I usually use WipeOut. A friend that has a bore scope tells me that for the powders that he shoots in his 6BR varmint rifle, that WipeOut does not get rid of all the carbon/powder fouling, but that if he uses Butch's and a brush, for a few strokes, after patching out all the foam residue, that his barrels scope clean. I think that hard carbon is a matrix, of carbon particles that are "glued together" with some sort of "varnish" combustion byproduct, and that some of the new chemistry can weaken the bond to the point that a brush can remove it. Yes, I know that this is just a theory, but it will have to do, till a better one comes along.
 
Boyd,

If your mixing your own and still having trouble with carbon and you know it's not the carbon cleaner....add a couple more CC/ML to a pint, that will help a bunch. You can also do this to Butch's or Shooters Choice.

Hovis
 
skeetlee,
a few years back sinclair sectioned a bbl that had been shot with moly, found hard black deposits, quickly said the sky is falling and quit selling moly poducts/kits.
what had happened was actually quite simple...the shooter tried moly but used his old cleaning program...and moly dont like that!.
moly coats the bbl and provides some insulation to the powder flame......this allows powder heat more time to react with the carbon in the burn. it in fact can and does cause hard carbon deposits if one does not clean for the carbon......
since i have shot moly for about 12 years....i have seen lots of guys make strange claims and disasters with poor attempts at using moly coated bullets.
bottom line as has been pointed out some fouling seems to create a sweet spot where the gun shoots great, then falls off as the fouling increases. this was the one and only benefit to moly..a longer sweet spot.
mike in co
 
kevin

Kevin, probably going to embarrass myself but what is CC/ML? Canadian Club and what??

Thanks

Mark
HovisKM said:
Boyd,

If your mixing your own and still having trouble with carbon and you know it's not the carbon cleaner....add a couple more CC/ML to a pint, that will help a bunch. You can also do this to Butch's or Shooters Choice.

Hovis
Click to expand...
 
Hovis,
Although I am not currently mixing my own, I am all ears. Add a couple more cubic centimeters/ milliliters (same thing) of what?
 
Boyd Allen said:
I find that different barrels "like" different bore conditions.

Some time back, a friend, who is an avid long range varmint hunter, got a bore scope. (Those of you who have one know what I am about to write.) At first it seemed that anything that he saw in a barrel, no matter how small had to be removed. After becoming more experienced he finally arrived at the conclusion that cleaning to bare steel was not needed, given that he wanted his barrels to last for as long as possible, and that perfectly clean required the use of abrasives, more frequently than he liked. After he became more experienced, he began to develop some judgment about what is important, and what is not. I call his earlier condition "bore scope disease". The truth is that you do not have to get a barrel perfectly clean for it to shoot well, just clean enough, so that it at the same starting place each time. I clean my 6PPC barrels less than I used to, and I get fewer surprises. I do pay particular attention to the end of the neck part of the chamber and throat when I clean, since accumulations in that area can cause problems. So far, with 133, Butch's, patches, and bronze brushes, my barrels look good when they are scoped. As far as the relationship between hard carbon and copper goes, it has been the conventional wisdom that in a smooth barrel, carbon accumulation will strip copper from bullets, and that if ineffective cleaning methods are used, alternating layers of carbon and copper will result. This used to be seen, a lot more often, when less effective bore solvents were the rule, and 133 was not in the powder mix. Back then, no one that I knew had a bore scope, and a home made copper solvent called blue goop, that was made with (cringe) 28% ammonia, was used by some shooters to deal with copper that had accumulated due to the ineffectiveness of off the shelf bore cleaners. Then Marksmans Choice, later renamed Shooters Choice, and Sweets became available, and at that point the use of strong home brew cleaners started to diminish. BBS came along later, and is what I currently use.
Click to expand...

Boyd thanks for that bit of knowledge.
 
mks said:
I like Eliminator because you can use it indoors without the ammonia odor. But it doesn't get ALL the carbon out. As I recall, the point has been made on this forum that carbon gets baked onto the first few inches of the barrel, and resists removal by anything other than abrasives. Tony B's cleaning procedures support this (JB or Iosso after 60 shots).

I found this to be true in my 30BR. For almost two years and about 4000 shots, I cleaned with Eliminator and no brush. Accuracy was falling off. Then I got a bore scope. The first 8-10 inches of the bore looked like the Bonneville Salt Flats in August. I lost track of how many times I JB'ed the bore this winter, but now only about 4 inches look terrible and some of its accuracy has returned. (The barrel was used before I got it, so with potentially 'way over 4000 rounds, it is just worn out.) Maybe I have Boyd's "bore scope disease" ;), but seems like baked-on carbon is a "pay me now, or pay me later" kind of thing. Either you clean it out regularly, or you are left with a bigger job later.

(Or, in the case of the 30BR, you could shoot the barrel for 3000+ rounds and then trash it. That could be the "less work" option.:rolleyes:)

Cheers,
Keith
Click to expand...

Cool.
 
Sorry...I must have had a brain cramp or something. Anyway...add 2-4 CC's/Millileters of Peroxide to the mix will help remove carbon. It's not a carbon cutter but it does two things. One....it bubbles and helps the carbon cutter get under the layers of carbon as it breaks it down and two...it helps to keep the cleaner from settling all to the bottom of the bore.

Hovis
 
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