Bullet Seating

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ekp

Guest
I have experience a difference in seating depth even using a Wilsons Seating die. After determining and setting my depth I find that subsequent cartridges can vary +/- .005. I have found more accurate results by seating the bullets in two steps with the final step the finish depth I desire. Is this because of different neck tensions and kinetic energy when seating in one step? Any suggestions? In the same vein I am undecided in the value of using a factory crimp die. I have heard arguments on both sides of the issue.

thnks
 
i am going out on a limb here and guess that as long as you are discussing a crimp die, you will get few responses on seating....

mike in co
 
Neck tension is a biggie, try polishing the insides of the necks with 0000 steal wool then us molly inside the necks you will be amazed how consistent they will be.

Joe Salt
 
mike in co said:
i am going out on a limb here and guess that as long as you are discussing a crimp die, you will get few responses on seating....

mike in co
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What is more important to me is method of seating bullet. The reason I brought up the factory crimp is related to the difference they are supposed to make in anomalies with bullet seating. I really would like input on the method of seating though.
 
ekp said:
I have experience a difference in seating depth even using a Wilsons Seating die. After determining and setting my depth I find that subsequent cartridges can vary +/- .005. I have found more accurate results by seating the bullets in two steps with the final step the finish depth I desire. Is this because of different neck tensions and kinetic energy when seating in one step? Any suggestions? In the same vein I am undecided in the value of using a factory crimp die. I have heard arguments on both sides of the issue.

Ekp

This may be a silly question but do you measure you bullets. I find that they can differ up to .006 maybe more in a single lot if you are using production bullets. Custom bullets are much better but can still very
Up to .003.
I separate them and adjust my seating die accordingly. I'am not sure if the bullet being a few thou further
In the case makes that much difference.
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What are you using to apply the force that seats the bullet? Are you measuring off of the tips of bullets, or off of bullets' ogives? Do you brush the insides of necks? Are you leaving some powder fouling when you do? ( I do, and find that it is a good idea for seating force uniformity.)
 
FBecigneul said:
Is this a joke?
How are you measuring your loaded round's length?
What instrument are you using to measure this?
How adept are you at using this instrument?

The only question above that may not be a serious one is the first.
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You know I am 60 years old not some dumb ass kid. I did not think there were any stupid questions but I guess I was wrong. I have been shooting since I was 5 and reloading probably since I was 14. Never really checked COL after setting the die until now. I just got concerned with what I was seeing on my calipers. Forget I asked
 
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Joe Salt said:
Neck tension is a biggie, try polishing the insides of the necks with 0000 steal wool then us molly inside the necks you will be amazed how consistent they will be.

Joe Salt
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Thnks for the advice. The only time I usually lube the neck case is when I full length resize. These were neck resized and thus were not lubed.
 
Boyd Allen said:
What are you using to apply the force that seats the bullet? Are you measuring off of the tips of bullets, or off of bullets' ogives? Do you brush the insides of necks? Are you leaving some powder fouling when you do? ( I do, and find that it is a good idea for seating force uniformity.)
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I use a cheap arbor press. I actually see a difference in just how long I maintain pressure on the die. I am obviously annoying some of the more experience members with my posts so I guess i will just leave the subject alone.

Thank You to those who were thoughtful in their response
 
Of course we had all that information in your question didn't we? And just for the record, age and experience don't necessarily confer skill or insight. I can speak to this from personal experience. As long as I have been reloading, from time to time, I still stumble onto things that I should have picked up on much earlier.

Getting back to your question, I have not checked this dimension much on my finished loads, and I will try to remember to take something to the range with me to do so, the next time that I go. (because that is where I do most of my loading) It may be that this is a significant issue that has not been noticed by many of us. I know that for my best rifles, that small differences in seating depth show up on the target, and if I am getting more variation than I realized, I will certainly give your method a try, and report back.
 
Boyd Allen said:
Of course we had all that information in your question didn't we? And just for the record, age and experience don't necessarily confer skill or insight. I can speak to this from personal experience. As long as I have been reloading, from time to time, I still stumble onto things that I should have picked up on much earlier.

Getting back to your question, I have not checked this dimension much on my finished loads, and I will try to remember to take something to the range with me to do so, the next time that I go. (because that is where I do most of my loading) It may be that this is a significant issue that has not been noticed by many of us. I know that for my best rifles, that small differences in seating depth show up on the target, and if I am getting more variation than I realized, I will certainly give your method a try, and report back.
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I would agree with you completely. That is why I asked the question to begin with. I also am not sure that what I saw makes a difference. Your answer is what I was looking for to begin with not condescending remarks from others. As I said before thanks for the thoughtful response.
 
Don't let some of these guys on this site get to you. They do come up with good answers to your problem but some try to make you feel dumb for asking.
 
ekp: Instead of checking the o.a.l of your loaded rounds, check the case head-to-ogive dimension. Often, the distance ahead of the ogive will vary while the case head-to-ogive figure will be consistent. That figure is where we look for consistency when loading for accuracy.

At first, this can be a bit hard to visualize even for veteran reloaders like yourself. If you'd like, I can post some pics that may be helpful.

Hope this helps. -Al
 
Are you using a bullet comparator or just your a set of calipers? If you are measuring the tip of the bullet you will see some difference in the OAL. Get yourself a good comparator and see if this changes your findings.
I have an older Stoney Point with the changeable inserts, they are now Hornady I believe. It works good. I now have some custom inserts made with my chamber reamer. They work very nice.

I have heard the Sinclair hex style works too.

I have a friend that measures his loaded rounds every time he loads when shooting in a match.

When checking mine I generally have about .001" difference, any more than that and they get put into the fouler pile.

Hope this helps.

Joe Hynes
 
This has turned into a very interesting question. For many years I have thought that the relationship of the bullet ogive to the lands was the important thing. With that in mind I opend up my seater stems to get contact for seating closer to the ogive-thinking this would make my loaded ammo more consistent. Thinking as others that what is in the case doesn't really matter. Without sorting length from base to ogive was quite consistent. After getting Quickload for a christmas present, and playing around with it. it dawned on me that things change a lot with seating depth-pressure, case volume, bullet travel(both length and time up the bore, etc. Now I'm wondering if my modifications along with sorting bullets by base to ogive is maybe the way to go. Any thoughts, or am I getting carried away?
 
Please, I am not casting aspersions

ekp said:
I have experience a difference in seating depth even using a Wilsons Seating die. After determining and setting my depth I find that subsequent cartridges can vary +/- .005. I have found more accurate results by seating the bullets in two steps with the final step the finish depth I desire. Is this because of different neck tensions and kinetic energy when seating in one step? Any suggestions? In the same vein I am undecided in the value of using a factory crimp die. I have heard arguments on both sides of the issue.

thnks
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But one question I have not yet seen answered is are you measuring from the point/meplat or are you using an "ogive" measuring fixture. A piece a lot of BR shooters reffer to as a "gizzie". If you are measuring points then I am surprised you only saw .005" difference.
 
I have not measured from ogive. I guess I probably should. I usually start with a dummy round and then adjust my seating die from there. If the stem of the seating die works from the point of the bullet how does one remove the point from the variables. It appeared to me as if a big factor was the energy created when seating and variable of neck tension and the necks resistance to seating the bullet
 
As I recall you are

ekp said:
I have not measured from ogive. I guess I probably should. I usually start with a dummy round and then adjust my seating die from there. If the stem of the seating die works from the point of the bullet how does one remove the point from the variables. It appeared to me as if a big factor was the energy created when seating and variable of neck tension and the necks resistance to seating the bullet
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using a Wilson style seater. They seat the bullet with pressure somewhere near the ogive, not at the point. Some of us have even lapped the stems to get a more intimate fit to the bullets we are using.
 
EKP when you sort your bullets also measure Ogive to Ogive. And measure base to Ogive. Don't forget the molly inside the necks, after they're clean. That's from YEARS of Experience!

Joe Salt
 
ekp

Might you share what cartridge you are loading for?

I like most of the 6PPC shooters use a clean brush to clean the ID neck area after shooting.
A few years ago there was a very interesting article in Precision Shooting about consistency of pull of a bullet from the case. The author used naked cases and put graphite into the neck after cleaning the necks with the brush to gain consistent bullet release. Or you could use a coated bullet (moly, Dan Zak) and not use the graphite.
Centerfire
 
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