Brass fit from one rifle to another ???

[Dennis Sorensen]

.

Just throwing this out for some educated (I hope) answers...

This is not all in front of me but here is the situation:

.338 Lapua used brass.

New barrel installed to correct headspace with a MATCH chamber. [PTG reamer]

Full length sizing die appears (not confirmed) to size the used brass to SAAMI specs.

This sized brass will not chamber. After attempt it requires tapping out with a rod.

Is this a simply fix with a new FL die?

It is my belief similar problems can occur with the mighty PPC case and I remember reading something about a tighter die ???


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[vinny]

Dennis

I had the same exact situation with a 308 Baer (Improved 300 weatherby). I shot the brass in my LG a few times then I tried to use the same re sized fully prepped brass in my HG, I could not close the bolt. I had to run the brass through my collet die by innovative technologies. They chamber now. I don't ever mix the brass I was just toolin around. My smith said sternly "Know two barrels will accept the same reamer in identical fashion, they will not cut exactly the same so you should not mix brass".
good luck
vinny

 

[Pete Wass]

Have you noticed

That you can go to a store and buy loaded ammo that will fit in any Factory chamber of that chambering? If chambers were as unique as some say, there would be no chance of being able to buy ammo off the shelf that would fit "Factory" rifles.

Unique is a bunch of BS. What matters is the dies. Once a piece of brass is run into a die it becomes the size of that die, which may or may not have anything to do with a chamber's size.

What you may have to do, as I have in the past, is to trim a few thou off the die to get the correct head spacing and/or bump. One also needs to pay attention to total case length.

If one has multiple chambers, be they in rifles or just barrels, all of them will be subservient to the die one uses to size the caess that go in them. Once brass is sized in a die it becomes like the die, not the chamber. Having segregated brass for each chamber is ludicrous if one runs them into a die. A die made with a reamer that made the chamber is useless to re-size brass to re-use but I think I am preaching to the flock here.

Another situation is the size of the chamber itself in comparison to the size of the cases when they were manufactured. There was a thread that discussed some of this in the past few days on one fo these forums. The problem with using chamberings that are not "Standard" is the sizing dies one needs to make the cases fit the chambers once the caes have been fired. Even having dies made off fired cases doesn't always prove to be satisfying all the time, form my experience. Dies are the Bain of the sport.

 

[vinny]

Pete
How come the brass fit in my HG only after I ran it through the collet die?

I was thinking that the chamber of the LG is a few .ooo larger just above the belt then the chamber of the HG. What do you think?
vinny

 

[Pete Wass]

I have had the problem

of having the same reamer cut different size holes in differnt barrels. Once they are done, one must have a die made that will size the brass to fit the smallest chamber. A better solution is to have the smallest chamber "Polished" a bit so that it is the same size as the larger chamber. It is, apparently, easy to do. I had to have to get a custon die re-sleeved to size cases down to new chambers. In retrospect I should have had the chambers "Polished .002 larger at the butt and I would have been all set.

The Smith may be right about the reamer not making the chambers all the same size but it may be because of the process, not the reamer. I don't think there is much sacred about any of these things. It is simply a matter of making them work together. Make the smallest fit the same as the largest. If a chamber is too tight to allow a re-sized case to be chambered, have that chamber "Polished out" so that it does fit.

 

[alinwa]

I've got two Borden PPC's made ten yrs apart. One a LV, on a HV. I can order a barrel with a phone call and EXPECT to not even change my die settings.... Right now, 5 barrels for two rifles, same die, total interchangeability.

al

 

[Pete Wass]

I hope

I've got two Borden PPC's made ten yrs apart. One a LV, on a HV. I can order a barrel with a phone call and EXPECT to not even change my die settings.... Right now, 5 barrels for two rifles, same die, total interchangeability.

al

people are paying attention to this answer. This is what everyone who has a Gunsmith do something for them should be able to say. It's great to have a vendor one can trust

 

[AVanGorder]

Borden Rifles

I've got two Borden PPC's made ten yrs apart. One a LV, on a HV. I can order a barrel with a phone call and EXPECT to not even change my die settings.... Right now, 5 barrels for two rifles, same die, total interchangeability.

al

Ditto what Al wrote.

Last summer Julia and I took the Benchrest Class that Jim Borden offers to his customers. Part of the class is load development. Well, I was having trouble with Lucy (one of the rifles Jim built for Julia). Jim loaded up some ammo, using his dies, his powder and measurer, his bullets (we both use 10X)... everything he uses for his personal 30BR - Shot it in Lucy - The gun shot great! I duplicated everything and Lucy shot great.

My story is a little bit different than Al's. It shows that Borden rifles are built so precise that two different guns can share the same everything.

Adrian

 

[Larry Elliott]

Dennis, were the cases fired in that rifle's chamber or another rifle's chamber before sizing, or were they new and unfired? A match chamber is likely to be smaller in diameter than a factory SAAMI chamber, and sizing dies seem to be somewhat variable in size.

Although I never checked with cases from a SAAMI chambered 6 PPC (USA?) I had in a match 6 PPC chamber it likely wouldn't fit without some serious sizing in a small base die.

I'm not a machinist, but it sure seems to me that chambers cut by a good machinist/gunsmith with the same reamer should be the same size, or so close that normal measuring tools couldn't detect a difference.

 

[longshooter]

Dennis,

It seems like you would need a F.L. die that compliments the match chamber in the new barrel.

For example, my .300 win mag rcbs die gives me 0.001" bump, and 0.0012" sizing at the case above the belt, and reduces the shoulder diameter 0.004". I consider my chamber to be max sammi, but would not expect the die to size for a match chamber.

Hope this is helpful.

longshooter

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

Dennis, were the cases fired in that rifle's chamber or another rifle's chamber before sizing, or were they new and unfired? A match chamber is likely to be smaller in diameter than a factory SAAMI chamber, and sizing dies seem to be somewhat variable in size.

Although I never checked with cases from a SAAMI chambered 6 PPC (USA?) I had in a match 6 PPC chamber it likely wouldn't fit without some serious sizing in a small base die.

I'm not a machinist, but it sure seems to me that chambers cut by a good machinist/gunsmith with the same reamer should be the same size, or so close that normal measuring tools couldn't detect a difference.

We are talking about brass fired in a factory 700 chamber and now the rifle has been re barreled with a match chamber.

I think the best solution here is to simply hone the back of the chamber out 1 or 2 thou...

unless he wishes to buy a new die and hopefully be able to size the cases...

 

[Lynn]

Alinwa

Al
I noticed I get fewer bad barrels when using Jim as a gunsmith as well.Right now I am 3 for 3 all bringing home prizes,and with me shooting them that is saying alot.
Lynn

 

[alinwa]

Al
I noticed I get fewer bad barrels when using Jim as a gunsmith as well.Right now I am 3 for 3 all bringing home prizes,and with me shooting them that is saying alot.
Lynn

hmmmmmmmm

al

 

[Paul H]

That you can go to a store and buy loaded ammo that will fit in any Factory chamber of that chambering? If chambers were as unique as some say, there would be no chance of being able to buy ammo off the shelf that would fit "Factory" rifles.

Unique is a bunch of BS. What matters is the dies. Once a piece of brass is run into a die it becomes the size of that die, which may or may not have anything to do with a chamber's size.

(sic)

Not exactly. Brass will never be the same dimensions as the die, as there is "springback" Also with chambers using a sharp shoulder, it is very difficult to set the shoulder back once the case has been fired. And dies do not size the entire case, the portion of the case that doesn't run into the die will not be sized.

Factory ammo is made to minimum dimensions, so it will chamber in any saami spec chamber. "Match" chambers are cut to tighter dimensions than factory chambers, some won't feed factory ammo, most won't feed rounds that have been fired in a factory chamber that is then fl sized. Even a factory chamber that is on the tight size often won't chamber brass that is once fired from a looser chamber that is fl sized.

The simple fix is new brass.

 

[Centerfire]

Dennis

I had the problem with my 25-06 neck sized cases using some older 10x fired brass and trying to FL size this brass with RCBS dies for the new Hart barrel.
Sent the dies to RCBS and were returned polished. No help.
Bought a new Redding bump die and still could not get the shoulder pushed back enough. Bought a Hornady tool for measuring the datum to head and this proved I was not able to change the set the older cases had taken. Used a Texan shell holder .200" under and still did not work.
Some one responded and said to pitch the old cases and start a new and the problem would go away by FLbumping .002" rather than neck sizing.
Problem solved.
Centerfire

 

[Pete Wass]

Benchrest shooters

Not exactly. Brass will never be the same dimensions as the die, as there is "springback" Also with chambers using a sharp shoulder, it is very difficult to set the shoulder back once the case has been fired. And dies do not size the entire case, the portion of the case that doesn't run into the die will not be sized.

Factory ammo is made to minimum dimensions, so it will chamber in any saami spec chamber. "Match" chambers are cut to tighter dimensions than factory chambers, some won't feed factory ammo, most won't feed rounds that have been fired in a factory chamber that is then fl sized. Even a factory chamber that is on the tight size often won't chamber brass that is once fired from a looser chamber that is fl sized.

The simple fix is new brass.

Routinely set back shoulders and re-size their entire cases. Springback does occur but if one has proper dies they can control the dimensions they want. Many of us anneal the neck-shoulder area of out cases often to insure we are able to bump our shoulders back and keep neck tension consistent. Many of us have chamberings that require making cases from parent brass so we can not be in a position of having to make new brass often. Properly annealed brass and a proper sized die will keep brass usable for many, many firings.

I shot a tight necked full 308 for a couple of years. The brass I used all that time came with the rifle when I bought it used and went with the rilfe when I sold it. As far as I know it is still with the rifle. I used an off the shelf Redding S fullsize dies to size the cases all that time without ever a problem unless the necks and shoulders got hard. Annealing corrected that situation.

Regarding factory chambers, Small Base dies will size cases back to fit tight chambers. I reload for a Remington 74- 280. Auto-loaders are very fussy about reloaded ammo. I can pick up cases at the range, run them through the small base die and shoot them in the 74 without a problem. There are dies that will work for us to do what we want to do.

I have a pair of 30-44 rifles I use in competition. I have several hundred rounds of brass which I feed them both without regard to the rifles chambers. Both rifle have nearly identicle chambers. Same is true for my 30 BR brass. I only need to know the chamber fit. I can easily bump the shoulders where they need to be to fit, one chamber to another.

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

It is a simple fix... his press is springing to much on sizing...

I received the rifle, used brass and dies...

I screwed his FL die down all the way in my Bonanza Co-Ax press and lubed (greasy old Lyman case lube) a case well and sized it... and I could feel it size at the bottom of the stroke... and it fit the chamber perfectly... so I did the rest of the cases and they fit perfectly...

I don't know what he is using for lube or a press... but I like that old greasy lube from Lyman and RCBS and after 38 years I still think my Co-Ax press is one of the best ever...

 

[Pete Wass]

I have been experimenting

It is a simple fix... his press is springing to much on sizing...

I received the rifle, used brass and dies...

I screwed his FL die down all the way in my Bonanza Co-Ax press and lubed (greasy old Lyman case lube) a case well and sized it... and I could feel it size at the bottom of the stroke... and it fit the chamber perfectly... so I did the rest of the cases and they fit perfectly...

I don't know what he is using for lube or a press... but I like that old greasy lube from Lyman and RCBS and after 38 years I still think my Co-Ax press is one of the best ever...

with several things. Die wax is pretty good, so is STP. I have some RCBS I have had for a long time and sometimes use that.

I have a big Texan turret press I use. It has a long handle on it and I need it often.

I sometimes find that sizing dies need to be trimmed a little bit to work well. Some people use those shell holders of different thickness; that seems like a good way to go at it also. I noticed a post that spoke of turning some off the face of the shell holder; guess that would work too.

 

[Larry Willis]

Factory loads are designed small enough (headspace) to fit in every rifle of that caliber.

Resizing dies are designed to make handloads small enough (headspace) to fit in every rifle of that caliber.

Rifle chambers are designed large enough (headspace) to chamber any factory loads made by anywhere. When everything is made within SAAMI spec there is always total ammo compatability . . . . .

HOWEVER,​

Some custom "match" chambers are made tighter than the minimum SAAMI spec. (In most cases this should not happen, but occasionally it does.) Any rifles made with a "special tight chamber" (tight neck etc.) should be noted on the barrel, and you can expect to use a custom resizing die. I have encountered several "special" chamber reamers that were too tight, (and I've found that it doesn't matter who makes the reamer.)

FL resizing dies today are easily made to incredible tolerances, and they should have no trouble making handloads fit in any rifle chamber in a given caliber. If the guns, factory loads and resizing dies are all made within SAAMI spec., a full lingth resizing die should cause no problem (when used properly) with interchangability of handloads between guns.

EXCEPT WHEN​

Belted magnums expand just above the belt. This is very common, and the reason it happens is this: Factory belted cases are designed to headspace on the belt. The shoulder gets blown forward quite a long way on the initial firing. This stretches the case considerably making it weakest just above the belt. Belted handloads need to ALWAYS be headspaced on the shoulder. Conventional FL resizing dies exert downward pressure on handloads, and belted cases will eventually bulge just above the belt. Conventional resizing dies then work like a bulldozer plowing dirt against a wall. The brass is swagged back against the belt and the brass builds up. The case diameter actually gets larger (not smaller). The tighter "small base dies" make the problem even worse.

If you need to measure the headspace clearance in your rifle or check the dimensions of your handloads, take a look at the new Digital Headspace Gauge that I just made for shooters. You can see it on www.larrywillis.com It has a few patented features that make it a very handy measuring tool for handloading.

- Innovative

 

[langenc]

I suspect it is the shoulder needs to be pushed back slightly.

Also try lubbing the INSIDE of the case neck (actally both in/out sides) as the case could be being stretched a little (few thousands) when the expanded plug comes out of the case.. Those situations will cause hard/impossible bolt closing.

Get a Wilson case gauge and use it on each case.