Bolt Lift
- Thread starter TedH
- Start date
FBecigneul
Member
Shouldn’t that be “of whom”?
Who gives a damn?
Who gives a damn?
ummmm, I do. I don't like folks who imply that "some reamer makers suck"
and when these same people make grandiose claims I like to see the rationale.
#1-with all this talk of sizing the "bottom" of the case... remember, much of it has nothing to do with the chamber. that portion of the cartridge at the very bottom is inside the bolt face.
I _think_ Paul is letting us know that the casehead is outside the chamber...... not sure WHY, but there it is.
#2- We shorten shell holders and harden them, And we make ring dies that work and are attested to by many customers.
I _think_ Paul is telling us he shortens and hardens shellholders...... Again, WHY?
#3- But if the chamber reamer is so poorly made that the cartridge is tight in the bolt... you have a problem.
I _think_ Paul is telling us..... well'p.... nope.... I have no friggin' idea'r what Paul's saying here.....none.
Maybe you can clear this up for us Dad?? As to how the chamber reamer can be "made so badly that "the cartridge is tight" in the bolt"....
Here's a bideo of some perty large cases, seriously mismatched and oversized and fired to destruction...... that means fired until the heads expanded and the primers prolapsed. These poor guys are stretched, murtilated and FUBAR'd until the caseheads gave up the ghost, hammered beyong redemption..... and these cases never clicked, hung up nor stuck in the boltface. So evidently this reamer maker is one of the "good ones"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWEM0qYq9zs&t=556s
I'm just some silly bohunk who DOES this stuff every day....NO weird sizing, NO clicking, NO cartridge hangups of any sort.....certainly ain't never had no cartridge get stuck in no bolt. But I'll go test it, you tell me HOW....
Or is that 'HOWM"??
Actually I lied a liddle bit...... but I didn't want to muddy the waters.
At one time I DID stick cases into a recessed boltface. I did this because I lissened to a well-known rifle builder who "believed" that a tight chamber could somehow keep a casehead from expanding. I say "believed" because he's obviously never tried it. But he talked me into trying it!
I spent about 5 Grand on his fantasy....I had a reamer cut small and even paid this guy to make me a custom bolt-face only .002 larger than a virgin case.
THIS is how I do stuff..... I DO STUFF!
I don't just grunt and opine about it......... I DID IT....... I TESTED "can you contain a cartridge case against casehead expansion?"
And the answer is "NO"
Nor can you easily resize an expanded casehead
And the real answer is simply to get the chamber stuff out of the way.....
"which I have done"
Jeremy Clarkson
At one time I DID stick cases into a recessed boltface. I did this because I lissened to a well-known rifle builder who "believed" that a tight chamber could somehow keep a casehead from expanding. I say "believed" because he's obviously never tried it. But he talked me into trying it!
I spent about 5 Grand on his fantasy....I had a reamer cut small and even paid this guy to make me a custom bolt-face only .002 larger than a virgin case.
THIS is how I do stuff..... I DO STUFF!
I don't just grunt and opine about it......... I DID IT....... I TESTED "can you contain a cartridge case against casehead expansion?"
And the answer is "NO"
Nor can you easily resize an expanded casehead
And the real answer is simply to get the chamber stuff out of the way.....
"which I have done"
Jeremy Clarkson
FBecigneul
Member
Poor Al;
There is so much you don’t know other than typing. You put up a post and then correct yourself in the next post.
Since you spout erroneous information so often I think I just won’t respond to you again. Let the jury rule.
Much of what you says belongs in the humorous forum section. Oh wait. You own that one already.
There is so much you don’t know other than typing. You put up a post and then correct yourself in the next post.
Since you spout erroneous information so often I think I just won’t respond to you again. Let the jury rule.
Much of what you says belongs in the humorous forum section. Oh wait. You own that one already.
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FBecigneul
Member
Basics of the relationship between a chamber and a case. Take a barrel off of an action. Drop a loaded or a fired case into the barrel. It should come to rest with just the extractor groove outside the chamber. The extractor on your bolt does not go into the chamber to retrieve (extract) the shell. If it does your case is unsupported and will have a catastrophic malfunction. I can’t explain it any better than that. The case is totally contained in the chamber in the barrel of the rifle. With a coned action face and coned bolt, The extractor groove and rim are outside the chamber but in that coned area and well short of the end of the barrel.
The function of a “ring die” is to size the case all the way to the extractor groove or as far down the case as is needed to have a case that chambers. To facilitate sizing without scraping brass off the shell case a small radius must be placed on the leading edge of the die. So, to get the sizing die to size all the way to the extractor groove it may be necessary to mill or shave the top of some shell holders the same amount as the radius of the leading edge of the die.
Did I really have to explain that? Do what you do do well, Boys. Do what you do do well.
The function of a “ring die” is to size the case all the way to the extractor groove or as far down the case as is needed to have a case that chambers. To facilitate sizing without scraping brass off the shell case a small radius must be placed on the leading edge of the die. So, to get the sizing die to size all the way to the extractor groove it may be necessary to mill or shave the top of some shell holders the same amount as the radius of the leading edge of the die.
Did I really have to explain that? Do what you do do well, Boys. Do what you do do well.
Ahhh, THERE we go
finally.
You believe that "your" die can resize a swelled casehead...... "clear to the extractor groove".......yeahh, good luck wi'dat!
Schucks.... just drive 'er on thru and you'll be bringing back primer pockets next!
BTDTGTTS
"Keep on believin'...".... It's easier than understanding!
finally.
You believe that "your" die can resize a swelled casehead...... "clear to the extractor groove".......yeahh, good luck wi'dat!
Schucks.... just drive 'er on thru and you'll be bringing back primer pockets next!
BTDTGTTS
"Keep on believin'...".... It's easier than understanding!
Jeepers, it's like playing chess with a pigeon!
And BTW, to anyone reading this who doesn't have access to machine tools etc..... ALL caseheads stick out the chamber around 135-150thou, it's the nature of the beast. It doesn't matter if you've a FLAT faced barrel (Atlas, Savage et al) or a RECESSED face (Rem 700 design) or a CONED bolt (Panda etc).......
They're all the same.
And anything a "ring die" can do, a plain 'ol resizing die can do too
Or, you can bush out your RCBS die with a "ring" if you so desire....
Again, I got nuttin' against ring dies. They exist as an alternate fix to a problem that does exist, just not quite as cut and dried as some believe.
This reminds me of arguing with Stephen Perry back in the day....... Stephen had a good gunsmith, a guy who set him up in a way that worked for Stephen. Problem WAS, is..... Poor ol' Steve had no friggin' IDEA just how talented his gunsmith was!! He's argue endlessly that "the correct way to set a sizing die is to incrementally work down til the bolt closes"
Got a lot of folks into trouble.
But Bless His Heart he was RIGHT!!!!!
In his world.
Francis is RIGHT. Sometimes his ring dies are an answer...
There, now he can say I've "changed my story" 3 differ'nt ways
And BTW, to anyone reading this who doesn't have access to machine tools etc..... ALL caseheads stick out the chamber around 135-150thou, it's the nature of the beast. It doesn't matter if you've a FLAT faced barrel (Atlas, Savage et al) or a RECESSED face (Rem 700 design) or a CONED bolt (Panda etc).......
They're all the same.
And anything a "ring die" can do, a plain 'ol resizing die can do too
Or, you can bush out your RCBS die with a "ring" if you so desire....
Again, I got nuttin' against ring dies. They exist as an alternate fix to a problem that does exist, just not quite as cut and dried as some believe.
This reminds me of arguing with Stephen Perry back in the day....... Stephen had a good gunsmith, a guy who set him up in a way that worked for Stephen. Problem WAS, is..... Poor ol' Steve had no friggin' IDEA just how talented his gunsmith was!! He's argue endlessly that "the correct way to set a sizing die is to incrementally work down til the bolt closes"
Got a lot of folks into trouble.
But Bless His Heart he was RIGHT!!!!!
In his world.
Francis is RIGHT. Sometimes his ring dies are an answer...
There, now he can say I've "changed my story" 3 differ'nt ways
FBecigneul
Member
Chess with a pigeon
I thought this is/was a civil website.
I explained the ring die concept to a dead ash tree and it knows more about dies than you.
Check
I’ve never been banned from a website for putting out bad information. Can you say the same?
Mate
I thought this is/was a civil website.
I explained the ring die concept to a dead ash tree and it knows more about dies than you.
Check
I’ve never been banned from a website for putting out bad information. Can you say the same?
Mate
Yes, I can.
I was never banned from a website for putting out bad information.
I was banned from a website for "calling the owner a pusbucket"...... there's a difference. Semantics maybe, but a difference.
You, on the other hand have never been banned from anything, nor will you be.
Good Boy.
I went over to my newsfeeds and there's a story which exemplifies our situation Francis!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/spotifys-joe-rogan-problem-isnt-192327878.html
We are different.
I side with Joe Rogan
You, with Neil Young
You and yours will ALWAYS have numbers on your side! You and your comrades with fingers in the air will ALWAYS be right....
And I will always be over in the corner with Joe Rogan LOL, busy being wrong, hard.
(And I think Rogan's a twit... I'll STILL support his right to be one!)
Go Joe!
Ohhh, and you forgot to mention your other go-to....... that I got KICKED OUT OF GUNSMITHING SCHOOL!
Expelled.
Forever
I never got a diploma, I never got recognition and I was blacklisted in total disgrace. My parents were embarrassed....... ""what will the neighbors think?"
because,
c o n v i c t i o n s
my silly c o n v i c t i o n s . . . . . again
I could have gotten a diploma, I could have graduated with honors, All's I would have had to do is "admit that there are two sides" to certain issues and "apologize" for proving my point and disagreeing with the status quo. All's I had to do was "fit in!"
Don't worry, you're safe, this problem will never be yours
Oohh, and your ring die works.
And Paul makes a good rear-entry action wrench.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/spotifys-joe-rogan-problem-isnt-192327878.html
We are different.
I side with Joe Rogan
You, with Neil Young
You and yours will ALWAYS have numbers on your side! You and your comrades with fingers in the air will ALWAYS be right....
And I will always be over in the corner with Joe Rogan LOL, busy being wrong, hard.
(And I think Rogan's a twit... I'll STILL support his right to be one!)
Go Joe!
Ohhh, and you forgot to mention your other go-to....... that I got KICKED OUT OF GUNSMITHING SCHOOL!
Expelled.
Forever
I never got a diploma, I never got recognition and I was blacklisted in total disgrace. My parents were embarrassed....... ""what will the neighbors think?"
because,
c o n v i c t i o n s
my silly c o n v i c t i o n s . . . . . again
I could have gotten a diploma, I could have graduated with honors, All's I would have had to do is "admit that there are two sides" to certain issues and "apologize" for proving my point and disagreeing with the status quo. All's I had to do was "fit in!"
Don't worry, you're safe, this problem will never be yours
Oohh, and your ring die works.
And Paul makes a good rear-entry action wrench.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
Besides the depth of the shell holder (top to where the case rests), the other thing that limits the reach of a die is the chamfer/slash bevel that most dies that I am aware of have. If one makes a ring die that has the absolute minumum chamfer the die can reach lower than a standard die, and of course the adjustment of a standard die is limited by the fact that it engages the case shoulder, which a ring die does not, which is the whole point.
Boyd
Besides the depth of the shell holder (top to where the case rests), the other thing that limits the reach of a die is the chamfer/slash bevel that most dies that I am aware of have. If one makes a ring die that has the absolute minumum chamfer the die can reach lower than a standard die, and of course the adjustment of a standard die is limited by the fact that it engages the case shoulder, which a ring die does not, which is the whole point.
Boyd
Boyd, just yesterday I modified a f.l. die for a .17 cal. wildcat and in the process eliminated the chamfer...which will be a good thing going forward as the die will be modified to take a bushing.
This is a Redding Body Die for the BR cases. The top is enlarged so only the bottom .375 of the die is working on the case. In effect, it's a 'tapered ring die' rather than a straight walled 'ring die':
Here, you can see the bored out area as well as the chamfered area on the bottom of the die, which was later faced off:
Good shootin'
-AlOn the subject of the whole Neil Young/Spotify/Rogan thing...this is too good not to share. -Al
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DakWejBcQIY
-Al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DakWejBcQIY
Butch Lambert
Active member
Looks great Al. I do it a simpler way after learning it from Charles Huckaba. I cut .100" off the bottom of a sizing die and the drill out the shoulder to allow the case to go beyond the old shoulder. If not and you did it like old Stevie you would be pushing the shoulder back to a dangerous level.
Dave Coots
64 Chevy 409 10.42 129
On the subject of the whole Neil Young/Spotify/Rogan thing...this is too good not to share.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DakWejBcQIY
Good stuff Al. Go Ted.......
Much as I love Tedly for his passions and his rants...... I disagree with him about it being "drugs" and people frying their brains. IMO he's missing the real problem.
I live immersed in a fundamentalist culture amongst a group of folks who generally exchew drinking and drugs of all sorts. "Clean Livin' Christian American Conservatives"......
Except they AIN'T! They think they're conservative but they think like children. They refuse to grow up and become adults.....It's all about "being nice" and "not judging" and "everyone's opinion is valuable"..... THIS is our problem IMO, political correctness. I've been kicked out of every room I've ever been in, for "being mean"........
BTW Ted knows this, he just hasn't formulated it in his mind yet. He KNOWS it when he speaks of discipline and parenting. Like Ted, I tell folks "you want to know me?? Meet my kids. ANY or all 8 of them. And my grandkids..." Most people of my generation whine endlessly about what losers their kids are.......MY generation, the folks aged from 50-70 right now have failed miserably in passing on judgement and values to our young.
Disingenuous "nice people" have been the death of us as they get played by the professionall martyrs and victims of this world..... There are fewer and fewer people in any group equipped to actually converse, rationally.
"Civility" has become a tenuous concept in a world where it's against the law to teach civics.
Still love me some Ted..... I'd happily trust him to care for my teenaged grandbabbies, KNOWING he'll treat them like little goddesses....... whereas I would go to jail before I'd let our POTUS or any of his supporters sully the interior of my home.
Like Ted, nothing gets my back up like mistreatment of the helpless.
I live immersed in a fundamentalist culture amongst a group of folks who generally exchew drinking and drugs of all sorts. "Clean Livin' Christian American Conservatives"......
Except they AIN'T! They think they're conservative but they think like children. They refuse to grow up and become adults.....It's all about "being nice" and "not judging" and "everyone's opinion is valuable"..... THIS is our problem IMO, political correctness. I've been kicked out of every room I've ever been in, for "being mean"........
BTW Ted knows this, he just hasn't formulated it in his mind yet. He KNOWS it when he speaks of discipline and parenting. Like Ted, I tell folks "you want to know me?? Meet my kids. ANY or all 8 of them. And my grandkids..." Most people of my generation whine endlessly about what losers their kids are.......MY generation, the folks aged from 50-70 right now have failed miserably in passing on judgement and values to our young.
Disingenuous "nice people" have been the death of us as they get played by the professionall martyrs and victims of this world..... There are fewer and fewer people in any group equipped to actually converse, rationally.
"Civility" has become a tenuous concept in a world where it's against the law to teach civics.
Still love me some Ted..... I'd happily trust him to care for my teenaged grandbabbies, KNOWING he'll treat them like little goddesses....... whereas I would go to jail before I'd let our POTUS or any of his supporters sully the interior of my home.
Like Ted, nothing gets my back up like mistreatment of the helpless.
FBecigneul
Member
I have nothing more to say and it’s better that way. We’ll, or I’ll, let Al Matson spout off about how his way of life, and his way of doing things, is THE way…………the truth and the light.
thank you for your blessing
i'll treasure it and hold it close
al-the truth and the light-inwa
Ohhhh, and I promise to never attempt to censor your words and opinions, you just spout all's you ever want sir, more power to you
20-some years we've disagreed, for 20+ years you've been trying to shut me up and for these same 20+ years I've welcomed your thoughts and opinions. That will never change, I promise. You and your cronies may well get me kicked out the room for "spreading false information" as your numbers are growing. Your power base and credibility have increased by leaps and bounds the last couple yrs..... you may still win this fight, but that's OK......i'm used to it!......and in the meantime as I look around and see normal people dimly questioning their reality ("words to a child" and "dress code") I'm shot with hope.THINK people..... THINK!