Bolt Lift

Pete, please KEEP WONDERING..... hopefully enough that you actually TRY a fat-butt chamber (Franny has never tried this, nor much else in his time as "testing" is not really his thang) please experiment with this...... I can't count the number of people I've helped with klikky guns just by getting them to hone out their chambers bigger using sandpaper! "clearance IS clearance!".... but ya got's to get enough to make it work.

Here's where your brain is right now, this minnit Pete...... you're asking yourself "HOW can more or less clearance make any difference?? I mean, "clearance is clearance".... right??" And you're asking yourself "HOW could brass possibly expand "beyond??"......"

It's simply because liberals don't feel a need to express a REASON, nor a mechanism, but just saying "yes" or "no" is enough because "their opinion is as relevant as yours"

Here's a copy and paste from another post today, from my reply to Jim O'Hare.....

Quote Originally Posted by jim1K View Post
I have annealed for 10 years and it works.... I shot and set records with brass that was fired a 100 times.... I have cases that have not been retired that were shot over 300 times.... You gain longevity, uniform neck tension, uniform seating depth and more uniform sizing..... Annealed correctly can not be improved on by one method over an other, so what works can be checked by testing spring back, it should be .0005....... Jim

THANK YOU Jim, nothing trumps real world experience

Many folks reading this forum won't believe you but THANK YOU!! And to those unbelievers...... unbelief only means YOU can't get those results, not that Jim can't.

As my buddy Jesse says, "Ya cain't argue with facts!" (altho most folks do..... well over 50% of our population will ALWAYS argue with facts because they can't help it )





Sorry Franny..... I don't CARE what people like you say, I lissen to people who DO
 
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Why do you need to screw with your chamber when a proper die gets your solution with zero risk to the chamber? Seems like an easier fix.
 
I don’t mess around with changing the base size of the chamber. I DO size the base of the cartridge with our ring dies which we make and sell.
Oh, Thank you Tim. I didn’t see your post before I sent mine in.
 
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tim said:
Why do you need to screw with your chamber when a proper die gets your solution with zero risk to the chamber? Seems like an easier fix.
Click to expand...

Because in the real world you CANNOT resize the actual base of the cartridge. Ain't no "ring die" that does anything cooler than tip the teeny-weeny area at the web/body junction back in just a tit because your regular die is too short....... completely useless to guys like me who want every shot to be the same and sizing to be one step. A ring die is a fix for a problem which shouldn't exist, a problem which can easily be entirely avoided.

With a properly matched die-to-chamber and a properly sized chamber you simply resize your cases every time and they never klik. Easy-Peasy

When the actual disc of copper at the base of the case starts to grow because you're loading too hot, primers loosen and the case is destroyed and you cannot somehow "fix" it without driving the entire case straight through a swaging die.

BUT.... in normal hot shooting the actual base of the case does tend to squat and widen just a tad as it seasons in....... not enough to loosen primers and the widening will stop and stabilize, it will not just keep getting wider until it "fills the chamber" or somesuch. The actual answer is to have your reamer made to just a little wider than a seasoned case and it will never click.

AND, to have your dies made to just maintain this fit.
 
And BTW this is not speculation.....I actually DO this with chamberings ranging from 22PPC up to hawg 338's


The only problem I've recently run into is that I'm deeply invested in the WSM case and I'm finding that these cases will leak gas and ring-cut a bolt WHILE THE PRIMER IS STILL SEATING TIGHT! The cases last and size just fine and no clicks..... but the bloody primers leak gas. I'm getting ready to start playing with foil, cigarette papers and such. Or swap out the entire setup for competition work.

Lapua cases do not have this problem but Lapua won't make WSM cases
 
alinwa said:
Because in the real world you CANNOT resize the actual base of the cartridge. Ain't no "ring die" that does anything cooler than tip the teeny-weeny area at the web/body junction back in just a tit because your regular die is too short....... completely useless to guys like me who want every shot to be the same and sizing to be one step. A ring die is a fix for a problem which shouldn't exist, a problem which can easily be entirely avoided.

With a properly matched die-to-chamber and a properly sized chamber you simply resize your cases every time and they never klik. Easy-Peasy

When the actual disc of copper at the base of the case starts to grow because you're loading too hot, primers loosen and the case is destroyed and you cannot somehow "fix" it without driving the entire case straight through a swaging die.

BUT.... in normal hot shooting the actual base of the case does tend to squat and widen just a tad as it seasons in....... not enough to loosen primers and the widening will stop and stabilize, it will not just keep getting wider until it "fills the chamber" or somesuch. The actual answer is to have your reamer made to just a little wider than a seasoned case and it will never click.

AND, to have your dies made to just maintain this fit.
Click to expand...

I respectfully, to the same degree you respect me, to disagree. Open the chamber up and what happens? The case expands again. So you ream again. You sir, are chasing your tail or in this case, your tale. End of story. Have the nice day you deserve.
 
Really? Most custom FL dies for benchrest ( as far as 6PPC) do exactly that. Since this is a CFBR forum I’m assuming not a lot of 338’s in short range BR.
When the Viper drop ports first came out, they were among the first with click issues on lift due to final extraction being right up top of the bolt lift, after a few resizing, started to get clicky. Dwight Scott built that 1st gen Viper and after a while I circled back and he supplied me with a FL die that bumped shoulder and only sized base, never had a click again…..still shoot it today.
Seem like ring dies work in several applications, sometimes not. IMHO best way to go is my custom die for my chamber using my reamer…. Zero clicks with four different actions.
 
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tim said:
Really? Most custom FL dies for benchrest ( as far as 6PPC) do exactly that. Since this is a CFBR forum I’m assuming not a lot of 338’s in short range BR.
When the Viper drop ports first came out, they were among the first with click issues on lift due to final extraction being right up top of the bolt lift, after a few resizing, started to get clicky. Dwight Scott built that 1st gen Viper and after a while I circled back and he supplied me with a FL die that bumped shoulder and only sized base, never had a click again…..still shoot it today.
Seem like ring dies work in several applications, sometimes not. IMHO best way to go is my custom die for my chamber using my reamer…. Zero clicks with four different actions.
Click to expand...


No tim, your dies do not resize the base..... they resize far enough down close to the base to get rid of the click. They get rid if the click because the actual "base" of the case never touches the sidewalls of the chamber. And while there are several ways to skin this cat the trick is to keep your chamber large enough that you stay away from that really thick brass down by the base, the stuff that doesn't resize well. The chamber does not somehow "contain" this base brass and once you realize this the easiest and most effective fix is simply to enlarge your chamber which allows your resizing setup to work with tractable, thin casewall brass. Ring dies and small base dies ARE addressing the same problem, but IMO not as well as just making the chamber a little wider.

And I agree with you that in any case you must achieve a scrupulous fit between the resizing setup and your chamber.

And the reason your 4 different setups don't click is because the chamber is fat enough to stay clear of the base brass.
 
FBecigneul said:
I respectfully, to the same degree you respect me, to disagree. Open the chamber up and what happens? The case expands again. So you ream again. You sir, are chasing your tail or in this case, your tale. End of story. Have the nice day you deserve.
Click to expand...


umm, no.

As I said earlier..... the proof you've never actually tried it is in your own words, your own explanation.

You lissen, but you don't hear. Nor do you try it. All you have to do to show me wrong is to explain WHY I'm wrong. I already HAVE "ring dies"..... and small base dies, and drive-thru dies. I'm the original tool geek, I buy into every idea that comes along and TRY IT. Most don't work. Right now we have a poor fellow trying to grab a share of the resizing market by stating "they tell me dies have to be straight! Well I make the straightest dies".....what he doesn't understand is what resizing dies actually DO, and that "straight" ain't in it.

"The Dreaded Click" derives from exactly ONE small section on the casewall, an area not 20 thousandths long, not from the base nor from the main casewall. Your ring die does iron this section for a certain small subset of chamberings within a small range of common 6PPC reamers. But it doesn't "resize the base" and it doesn't help the much larger set of folks who are shooting cartridges outside this range.

(Oddly enough, there is actually "Bench Rest" outside of 100/200 Group shooting! :) )
 
alinwa said:
Because in the real world you CANNOT resize the actual base of the cartridge. Ain't no "ring die" that does anything cooler than tip the teeny-weeny area at the web/body junction back in just a tit because your regular die is too short....... completely useless to guys like me who want every shot to be the same and sizing to be one step. A ring die is a fix for a problem which shouldn't exist, a problem which can easily be entirely avoided.

With a properly matched die-to-chamber and a properly sized chamber you simply resize your cases every time and they never klik. Easy-Peasy

When the actual disc of copper at the base of the case starts to grow because you're loading too hot, primers loosen and the case is destroyed and you cannot somehow "fix" it without driving the entire case straight through a swaging die.

BUT.... in normal hot shooting the actual base of the case does tend to squat and widen just a tad as it seasons in....... not enough to loosen primers and the widening will stop and stabilize, it will not just keep getting wider until it "fills the chamber" or somesuch. The actual answer is to have your reamer made to just a little wider than a seasoned case and it will never click.

AND, to have your dies made to just maintain this fit.
Click to expand...



Al, you are correct as I've followed your lead.
 
alinwa said:
No tim, your dies do not resize the base..... they resize far enough down close to the base to get rid of the click. They get rid if the click because the actual "base" of the case never touches the sidewalls of the chamber. And while there are several ways to skin this cat the trick is to keep your chamber large enough that you stay away from that really thick brass down by the base, the stuff that doesn't resize well. The chamber does not somehow "contain" this base brass and once you realize this the easiest and most effective fix is simply to enlarge your chamber which allows your resizing setup to work with tractable, thin casewall brass. Ring dies and small base dies ARE addressing the same problem, but IMO not as well as just making the chamber a little wider.

And I agree with you that in any case you must achieve a scrupulous fit between the resizing setup and your chamber.

And the reason your 4 different setups don't click is because the chamber is fat enough to stay clear of the base brass.
Click to expand...

My reamer print would disagree with you.
 
I got distracted of making this series on my youtube channel before I got to the description of "The Dreaded Click" but there may still be some points of interest here for some.....

from a couple years ago.

Maybe I'll get motivated to go finish the series and actually SHOW the click and how the various methods approach "fixing" it whereas my fat-butt method just flatout E L I M I N A T E S the whole clicking mechanism.

BTW these rounds pictured in this video are seriously fat-butted so's you can see what they look like. 6X47L at 10 thou over base case

ooops...... I just removed the link. I think I inadvertantly linked to my own admin section

I'll Be Back


OK, so I'm back.


I'm a computer illiterate dope so here's hoping this is NOT a linkie directly into my own admin LOL

(Maybe Elmer will be nice enough to tell me if I am since't he's actually abl to tell)

https://youtu.be/alBzU9CI-xE

If the link does not start at the absolute beginning that may be a sign that you're in my admin.....
 
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tim said:
My reamer print would disagree with you.
Click to expand...

words, timmie, words again. You wanna' say something that MEANS something, ie you wanna' make a real-world BigBoy statement then back it up with an explanation. All's you got's to do is show us all your fired case and a virgin case setting in a set of calipers.... or just share with with us the difference betwixt the two and I'll take you on faith.

The reamer print doesn't do a whole lot of good because the number of people who can make chambers the same size as the reamer is vanishingly small.

In any case Dwight did you fine by making your setup(s) work repeatably. He supplied you with a die or dies which does iron back the body/web junction, and enough casehead clearance that your actual bases don't hang up.
 
In the olden days before I speced (spelling), my sizing reamer, I did as Charles Huckaba suggested. I took a small base sizing die and cit about .150" off the base. I then ran a drill through the shoulder to allow the case to be pushed further into the case. I pulled it out when I had the "click".
My sizing reamer is .003 undersize at the base and .002 under at the shoulder. This is based on the dims of my chambering reamer.
 
On the back end of the chamber dimension thing, there needs to be some clearance over the diameter of new unfired brass. You can have a chamber that takes new brass just fine, but you will have issues if it is too close to unfired brass. This is not conjecture.

In the PPC world it is a lesson that was learned a long time back. Some shooters thought that they could gain something with a tighter fit to cases and based on that ordered reamers just a little bit smaller at the .200 line. All that they accomplished was to end up with clicks with the same loads that did not produce them before. You can theorize all you want, and buy smaller dies but the real solution is to get that dimension right.

Another related issue is chamber coverage on the bottom of the case, vs. die coverage. Typical FL dies have over generous chamfer/radai which combined with the thickness of the top of the shell holder limit the reach that dies have down the case.

Some years back, a well used test case developed a click. It was one that I had reserved for pressure testing, so as not to mess up a matched set. The die that I was, and still use has interchangeable inserts at its base, that allow different amounts of sizing. They are screwed into the die body with very fine threads. The Shell holder that I was using had had about .014 taken off the top, so with the correct bump setting of the die there was a small gap between the die and the shell holder. The bottom edge of the insert had almost no rounding. Taking a chance I unscrewed the insert a bit, to the point where it just brushed the top of the shell holder with a case being sized in place. With the same insert, that only sized cases from that chamber .0005, the click was gone. It wasn't about diameter, it was about reach. I made the die reach farther down the case.
 
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Boyd Allen said:
It wasn't about diameter, it was about reach. I made the die reach farther down the case.
Click to expand...

Absolute agreement here..... all fixes (ring die, grinding/drilling/, shortening shellholders etc etc) allow the improperly sized die to access or "roll in" that tiny section where the click occurs. The junction of the casehead to the casewall, the point just at the base of the ring or line or swelling where the casebody blows out to fill the chamber.
 
Apparantly, some don’t understand what a ring die is. It is a straight walled die. That’s it. It is ground to the size of the base of a die. When you cut the bottom off of a sizing die and cut back on some of the neck area you have essentially made a ring die. Thank you for approving of what we are doing with the ring die.
 
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I have two types of ring dies, one that has a pusher so that the case passes through the sizing part, and the other that works with a standard shell holder. Even the latter can have more reach because you do not risk too much shoulder bump if you cut down the top of the shell holder, and/or take a little off the bottom of the die to do away with excessive chamfer. In the case that I mentioned above, the base insert has virtually no chamfer, the shell holder had been shortened, and I was able to screw the insert down on the case to increase reach, The combination fixed the problem.
 
with all this talk of sizing the "bottom" of the case... remember, much of it has nothing to do with the chamber. that portion of the cartridge at the very bottom is inside the bolt face. We shorten shell holders and harden them, And we make ring dies that work and are attested to by many customers. But if the chamber reamer is so poorly made that the cartridge is tight in the bolt... you have a problem.
 
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