Better rifle setup and SHOOTER setup for load development from a bench?

[G & V Carter]

more thoughts on bench set-up

Hi Jim, good information from folks on this thread, a couple more thoughts on set-up:

Sit so the rifle recoils squarely into your shoulder pocket. The rifle should return to battery on target after firing. Keep your head down through firing and follow-through. Top shooters sit behind the rifle (watch the scope doesn’t poke you in the forehead if you lean too far forward). Personally I have trouble getting behind the gun on some ranges and sit more to the side, bringing the rear bag as close to the edge of the bench as possible.

A hydraulic stool is a good investment since benches are rarely consistent height even on the same range. The hydraulic stool is quick to adjust. The stool you purchased sounds like it did the trick for you though.

You should be able to sit behind the rifle and line the reticle on target, close your eyes and relax, and still be on target when you look again into the scope. Front rest needs to be tight enough that it doesn’t creep down during the match. The rear bag should be stiff enough to not settle while firing.

Settle the rifle into the bags before firing. The stock should ride on the ears and not bottom out in the v-groove of the rear bag.

If you have a sling swivel on your stock don’t let it drag in the rear bag. Check the swivel is behind the bag.

If the rifle drags in the bags it will cause accuracy problems. Use teflon stock tape and place a used dryer sheet under the stock to help the rifle slide in the bags. Some shooters use powder but I find it messy, and it gets gummy on wet days.

Flinching the shoulder into the butt stock on firing will change the point of impact. This is often seen as vertical on target. I also sometimes nudge the rear bag sideways when I overhandle the rifle (not being directly behind the gun sets me up for this problem). Practice pinning the rifle against the front stop and shooting with a consistent shoulder hold. It’s not as easy as it sounds.

Watch how you lean against the bench – see how much the reticle moves on target if you lean into or let up against the bench. Some benches have unstable platforms and can rock when someone walks behind you.

Don’t allow the rifle to cant in the bags. If you’re shooting a traditional-style hunting stock this can be difficult to prevent, especially if you're using a tactical "cheek weld" hold – the top benchrest shooters have low-profile stocks and shoot free recoil, but I understand you might be shooting a larger caliber so a firm (but stable) hold would be needed.

Check your set-up before your first shot: slide the rifle forward and back in the rest and watch the reticle – does it track vertically? If not then check the front rest is parallel to the target board, and the rear rest is directly in line behind. Tighten the front rest so the rifle tracks consistently in the bags.

If the hard machined surface of the front rest touches the forestock this will cause crazy flyers. Happens at some ranges when shooting uphill. Make sure your front sand bag sits high enough above the machined pedestal so the metal edge doesn’t touch the stock when you raise the height of the front rest.

Check that the front sand bag is level (an unlevel bag will also cause the rifle to cant). The front bag must be soft enough to absorb vibration.

Hope this is helpful for you,

cheers,
Vera (precisionshooting.com)

 

[Butch Lambert]

Hi Jim, good information from folks on this thread, a couple more thoughts on set-up:

Sit so the rifle recoils squarely into your shoulder pocket. The rifle should return to battery on target after firing. Keep your head down through firing and follow-through. Top shooters sit behind the rifle (watch the scope doesn’t poke you in the forehead if you lean too far forward). Personally I have trouble getting behind the gun on some ranges and sit more to the side, bringing the rear bag as close to the edge of the bench as possible.

A hydraulic stool is a good investment since benches are rarely consistent height even on the same range. The hydraulic stool is quick to adjust. The stool you purchased sounds like it did the trick for you though.

You should be able to sit behind the rifle and line the reticle on target, close your eyes and relax, and still be on target when you look again into the scope. Front rest needs to be tight enough that it doesn’t creep down during the match. The rear bag should be stiff enough to not settle while firing.

Settle the rifle into the bags before firing. The stock should ride on the ears and not bottom out in the v-groove of the rear bag.

If you have a sling swivel on your stock don’t let it drag in the rear bag. Check the swivel is behind the bag.

If the rifle drags in the bags it will cause accuracy problems. Use teflon stock tape and place a used dryer sheet under the stock to help the rifle slide in the bags. Some shooters use powder but I find it messy, and it gets gummy on wet days.

Flinching the shoulder into the butt stock on firing will change the point of impact. This is often seen as vertical on target. I also sometimes nudge the rear bag sideways when I overhandle the rifle (not being directly behind the gun sets me up for this problem). Practice pinning the rifle against the front stop and shooting with a consistent shoulder hold. It’s not as easy as it sounds.

Watch how you lean against the bench – see how much the reticle moves on target if you lean into or let up against the bench. Some benches have unstable platforms and can rock when someone walks behind you.

Don’t allow the rifle to cant in the bags. If you’re shooting a traditional-style hunting stock this can be difficult to prevent, especially if you're using a tactical "cheek weld" hold – the top benchrest shooters have low-profile stocks and shoot free recoil, but I understand you might be shooting a larger caliber so a firm (but stable) hold would be needed.

Check your set-up before your first shot: slide the rifle forward and back in the rest and watch the reticle – does it track vertically? If not then check the front rest is parallel to the target board, and the rear rest is directly in line behind. Tighten the front rest so the rifle tracks consistently in the bags.

If the hard machined surface of the front rest touches the forestock this will cause crazy flyers. Happens at some ranges when shooting uphill. Make sure your front sand bag sits high enough above the machined pedestal so the metal edge doesn’t touch the stock when you raise the height of the front rest.

Check that the front sand bag is level (an unlevel bag will also cause the rifle to cant). The front bag must be soft enough to absorb vibration.

Hope this is helpful for you,

cheers,
Vera (precisionshooting.com)

Great Advice!

 

[JimGnitecki]

Hi Jim, good information from folks on this thread, a couple more thoughts on set-up:

Sit so the rifle recoils squarely into your shoulder pocket. The rifle should return to battery on target after firing. Keep your head down through firing and follow-throug Understand. But should my head be "level" in the fore-aft dimension, or tilted forward, while holding the sight picture before, during, and after firing? . Top shooters sit behind the rifle (watch the scope doesn’t poke you in the forehead if you lean too far forward). Personally I have trouble getting behind the gun on some ranges and sit more to the side, bringing the rear bag as close to the edge of the bench as possible. I wondered about that. So some shooters actually sit behind the bench and elan into the rifle from behind, versus sitting beside the rifle (in the bench "cutout") and lenaing in sdieways? Either one can work, and it's just a matter of preference for an individual shooter?

A hydraulic stool is a good investment since benches are rarely consistent height even on the same range. The hydraulic stool is quick to adjust. The stool you purchased sounds like it did the trick for you though.

You should be able to sit behind the rifle and line the reticle on target, close your eyes and relax, and still be on target when you look again into the scope Yes! I am doing that now. Front rest needs to be tight enough that it doesn’t creep down during the match. The rear bag should be stiff enough to not settle while firing.

Settle the rifle into the bags before firing. The stock should ride on the ears and not bottom out in the v-groove of the rear bag. Why is it important that the stock not bottom out in the v-groove? Too much friction? or? If the stock is 1.25" wide at the bottom, with FLAT bottom except for 1/8" radious on each side edge, how wide should the slot between the ears in the Protektor flattop rear bag ideally be? (THe widest they offer is 1" without asking for a custom built bag)

If you have a sling swivel on your stock don’t let it drag in the rear bag. Check the swivel is behind the bag. I removed the swivel.

If the rifle drags in the bags it will cause accuracy problems. Use teflon stock tape and place a used dryer sheet under the stock to help the rifle slide in the bags. Some shooters use powder but I find it messy, and it gets gummy on wet days. I have ordered a Protektor flattop bag with the "Slick Silver" option. But it sounds like the dryer sheet might be a good additonal idea to not only ensure low friction, but also minimize bag surface wear.

Flinching the shoulder into the butt stock on firing will change the point of impact. This is often seen as vertical on target. I also sometimes nudge the rear bag sideways when I overhandle the rifle (not being directly behind the gun sets me up for this problem). Practice pinning the rifle against the front stop and shooting with a consistent shoulder hold. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Right now, I still have the muzzle brake on the rifle that was standard equipment on it when ordered from PGW Defence. So I have zero problem with recoil and so no flinch. But that muzzle brake will need to come off for F-Class, and that will change both the recoil and the POI probably. But I have fired plenty of strong caliber rifles and handguns in the past, and don't seem to flinch as I am pretty stocky in build (190 lb in a frame that has shrunk at my age to just 5'7"!). With the muzzle brake in place for load testing, I am able to shoot almost "free recoil" with just the lightest shoulder contact and trigger hand contact.

Watch how you lean against the bench – see how much the reticle moves on target if you lean into or let up against the bench. Some benches have unstable platforms and can rock when someone walks behind you. Yes, although the bench seems very solid, I myself cause reticle movement with my slight hold pressure variations. I can also literally see my heartbeat (I have an unusually low heartrate that averages in the low 50s when not sleeping).

Don’t allow the rifle to cant in the bags. If you’re shooting a traditional-style hunting stock this can be difficult to prevent, especially if you're using a tactical "cheek weld" hold – the top benchrest shooters have low-profile stocks and shoot free recoil, but I understand you might be shooting a larger caliber so a firm (but stable) hold would be needed. I am shooting avery mild 6.5Creedmoor load - 120g Hornady ELD Match at 2700 fps. The toe of my stock is 1.25" wide and is flat except for that 1/8" radius on the edge of each side. I level the rifle precisely beforehand using a very sensitive iPhone app with the phone laying across the top turret of the scope. And as mentioned earlier, my hold is very light. So, cant has not been a problem.

Check your set-up before your first shot: slide the rifle forward and back in the rest and watch the reticle – does it track vertically? If not then check the front rest is parallel to the target board, and the rear rest is directly in line behind. Tighten the front rest so the rifle tracks consistently in the bags.

If the hard machined surface of the front rest touches the forestock this will cause crazy flyers. Happens at some ranges when shooting uphill. Make sure your front sand bag sits high enough above the machined pedestal so the metal edge doesn’t touch the stock when you raise the height of the front rest.

Check that the front sand bag is level (an unlevel bag will also cause the rifle to cant). The front bag must be soft enough to absorb vibration.

Hope this is helpful for you, VERY MUCH SO! THANK-YOU!

cheers,
Vera (precisionshooting.com)

Wow, Vera! Thank-you! THIS is the kind of information that I was looking for when I posted this thread! Please see my comments as well in red font in the quote of your text above!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Vera: I just visited your website. I think I am going to enjoy going through it, and will liekly learn a LOT. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I have noted that you are among the few posters on this thread who have actually provided the kind of specific "position" information that I was hoping to get.

Jim G

 

[G & V Carter]

Good discussion, some additional thoughts below:

Sit so the rifle recoils squarely into your shoulder pocket. The rifle should return to battery on target after firing. Keep your head down through firing and follow-throug Understand. But should my head be "level" in the fore-aft dimension, or tilted forward, while holding the sight picture before, during, and after firing? . Any (reasonable) head position would be OK; you want to have a good sight picture without joining the half-moon club. But don’t lean your head sideways over the stock. If you must contort your head to see through the scope, then your body position behind the rifle should be adjusted. The point of keeping your head down is to not lose your sight picture or change your position between shots. Turkey-necking (or ground-hogging) where you raise your head after every shot is just poor technique. But there are conditions when shooting ‘heads up’ can be a good tactic (for example in fast switching winds). Also some folks have poor eyesight (or only one eye) and have to shoot with their head above the stock (waiting for the condition to return), and with practice they shoot very well, but it’s definitely a work-around.

Top shooters sit behind the rifle (watch the scope doesn’t poke you in the forehead if you lean too far forward). Personally I have trouble getting behind the gun on some ranges and sit more to the side, bringing the rear bag as close to the edge of the bench as possible. I wondered about that. So some shooters actually sit behind the bench and elan into the rifle from behind, versus sitting beside the rifle (in the bench "cutout") and leaning in sideways? Either one can work, and it's just a matter of preference for an individual shooter? Best technique is behind the rifle. Just don’t sit so far behind the gun that it has a long run at you during recoil. Usually when someone shoots from beside the gun it’s because of body structure – I think I would need to climb on top of the bench at some ranges to get behind the rifle. I always thought it was me just being too stubborn to do the right thing but have met some men who said they also can’t get behind the rifle on some ranges. When I shoot from beside the rifle, the butt stock doesn’t hit me in the shoulder pocket, but on the bony part of my arm. With practice I’ve learned to not move the rifle during firing, and I use a pad on my arm to stop the bruises. When you watch my video online you’ll see me reflexively grabbing the stock with my shooting hand, which is a flinch from my arm getting hammered over the years. Learn to shoot with the rifle recoiling directly into your shoulder pocket if you can – you’ll have a better sight picture and return the gun to battery more reliably by pushing your shoulder forward.

Settle the rifle into the bags before firing. The stock should ride on the ears and not bottom out in the v-groove of the rear bag. Why is it important that the stock not bottom out in the v-groove? Too much friction? or? If the stock is 1.25" wide at the bottom, with FLAT bottom except for 1/8" radious on each side edge, how wide should the slot between the ears in the Protektor flattop rear bag ideally be? (THe widest they offer is 1" without asking for a custom built bag) You shouldn’t have trouble with a new Protektor rear bag and your stock profile. What causes erratic accuracy is the stock bouncing on an unyielding surface, either a front rest that’s compacted or filled too hard (periodically remove the sand bag and ‘fluff’ it to keep it soft) or a rear bag where the stock is bottomed out on the hard-packed bag. The ears are there for more than keeping the rifle from canting, the ears are softer than the bottom surface and will absorb vibration. Another note, if the stock rides on top of the front stop you’ll see flyers, so periodically check the stop hasn’t loosened and dropped over time with rough handling of the front rest.

If the rifle drags in the bags it will cause accuracy problems.Use teflon stock tape and place a used dryer sheet under the stock to help the rifle slide in the bags. Some shooters use powder but I find it messy, and it gets gummy on wet days. I have ordered a Protektor flattop bag with the "Slick Silver" option. But it sounds like the dryer sheet might be a good additonal idea to not only ensure low friction, but also minimize bag surface wear. I always use a dryer sheet. Not so much worried about the bag wearing out.

Flinching the shoulder into the butt stock on firing will change the point of impact. This is often seen as vertical on target. I also sometimes nudge the rear bag sideways when I overhandle the rifle (not being directly behind the gun sets me up for this problem). Practice pinning the rifle against the front stop and shooting with a consistent shoulder hold. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Right now, I still have the muzzle brake on the rifle that was standard equipment on it when ordered from PGW Defence. So I have zero problem with recoil and so no flinch. But that muzzle brake will need to come off for F-Class, and that will change both the recoil and the POI probably. But I have fired plenty of strong caliber rifles and handguns in the past, and don't seem to flinch as I am pretty stocky in build (190 lb in a frame that has shrunk at my age to just 5'7"!). With the muzzle brake in place for load testing, I am able to shoot almost "free recoil" with just the lightest shoulder contact and trigger hand contact. Maybe the word ‘flinching’ is too much – even slight pressure on the stock will cause change in POI, but you mentioned that below. For anyone else following this thread, if you think you have a flinch then practice dry firing the rifle (center-fire only, a rimfire will be damaged by dry firing). Helped me shoot smoother (smooth is fast) and without the dreaded ‘double clutch’ caused by jamming the bolt due to poor technique.

Watch how you lean against the bench – see how much the reticle moves on target if you lean into or let up against the bench. Some benches have unstable platforms and can rock when someone walks behind you. Yes, although the bench seems very solid, I myself cause reticle movement with my slight hold pressure variations. I can also literally see my heartbeat (I have an unusually low heartrate that averages in the low 50s when not sleeping). That’s exactly the idea, you need to become aware of how you’re influencing the POI by your handling. The bench issue was OPEX gained by traveling to many ranges around the world. I check every bench now for movement, and then focus on how much pressure I put against the side of the bench if it’s a problem.

Don’t allow the rifle to cant in the bags. If you’re shooting a traditional-style hunting stock this can be difficult to prevent, especially if you're using a tactical "cheek weld" hold – the top benchrest shooters have low-profile stocks and shoot free recoil, but I understand you might be shooting a larger caliber so a firm (but stable) hold would be needed. I am shooting avery mild 6.5Creedmoor load - 120g Hornady ELD Match at 2700 fps. The toe of my stock is 1.25" wide and is flat except for that 1/8" radius on the edge of each side. I level the rifle precisely beforehand using a very sensitive iPhone app with the phone laying across the top turret of the scope. And as mentioned earlier, my hold is very light. So, cant has not been a problem. Sounds like canting the rifle isn't a problem, but I'm curious about the ammunition since you mentioned it. I don’t know Creedmoor loads, since I shoot 67 gr match bullets in 6PPC (my husband and I swage our own bullets) pushed to an undisclosed muzzle velocity (suffice it to say it’s above 2700 fps.) The load gives me 1/10” MOA routinely out to 200 yards in mild wind conditions, and when tuned correctly will shoot through moderate conditions. If I’m shooting 1/4" MOA then I’m not competitive at a match unless the winds are beyond sporty. You’d be surprised how much a wind-sensitive load will cause horrible accuracy at 100 yards. Suggest you look at your ammo and see whether it’s accurate at short range – if I’m not mistaken the ELDs stabilize around 200 yards and then have awesome ballistics at long range. There’s a lot of voodoo in getting a bullet to go to sleep within 100 yards.

Here's what I would do next, although you’re on the right track with getting your equipment upgraded. Three things come to mind, what I would do at the range when I run into trouble myself. 1) Ask someone to watch your technique. Or prop your iPhone on the bench and video yourself. 2) Ask a competitive shooter at your range to shoot your set-up. They may have the same accuracy problems using your equipment/loads and give you hints to fix. 3) Ask to shoot another competitor’s rifle, or rest etc. This favor comes with getting to know folks at the range. But benchrest shooters are a helpful lot and want to encourage people to succeed in the sport – I’ve often let a new shooter pull the trigger on my rifle during practice so they can see what a proper set-up looks like. Also, when I’m struggling (lost) during a competition I’ll ask my husband to leave his rifle/rest on the bench for me to shoot, so I can troubleshoot if the problem is with my missing conditions (head problem) or my set-up.

 

[alinwa]

"in for a penny" I guess

If you ever get too wrapped up in the whole "bullets going to sleep" thing, I'm down in Vancouver WA with a 20-ton concrete bench and multiple acoustic targets set in a row so's you can watch your groups get tighter with range


Vera's last paragraph here is gold..... AND, it's a way to actually experience accuracy for real




2) Ask a competitive shooter at your range to shoot your set-up. They may have the same accuracy problems using your equipment/loads and give you hints to fix. 3) Ask to shoot another competitor’s rifle, or rest etc. This favor comes with getting to know folks at the range. But benchrest shooters are a helpful lot and want to encourage people to succeed in the sport – I’ve often let a new shooter pull the trigger on my rifle during practice so they can see what a proper set-up looks like. Also, when I’m struggling (lost) during a competition I’ll ask my husband to leave his rifle/rest on the bench for me to shoot, so I can troubleshoot if the problem is with my missing conditions (head problem) or my set-up.

Pay special attention to this advice, all of it. You MUST have an established benchmark against which to base your "progress" for actual progress to happen

 

[JimGnitecki]

Good discussion, some additional thoughts below:

Sit so the rifle recoils squarely into your shoulder pocket. The rifle should return to battery on target after firing. Keep your head down through firing and follow-throug Understand. But should my head be "level" in the fore-aft dimension, or tilted forward, while holding the sight picture before, during, and after firing? . Any (reasonable) head position would be OK; you want to have a good sight picture without joining the half-moon club. But don’t lean your head sideways over the stock. If you must contort your head to see through the scope, then your body position behind the rifle should be adjusted. The point of keeping your head down is to not lose your sight picture or change your position between shots. Turkey-necking (or ground-hogging) where you raise your head after every shot is just poor technique. But there are conditions when shooting ‘heads up’ can be a good tactic (for example in fast switching winds). Also some folks have poor eyesight (or only one eye) and have to shoot with their head above the stock (waiting for the condition to return), and with practice they shoot very well, but it’s definitely a work-around.

Top shooters sit behind the rifle (watch the scope doesn’t poke you in the forehead if you lean too far forward). Personally I have trouble getting behind the gun on some ranges and sit more to the side, bringing the rear bag as close to the edge of the bench as possible. I wondered about that. So some shooters actually sit behind the bench and elan into the rifle from behind, versus sitting beside the rifle (in the bench "cutout") and leaning in sideways? Either one can work, and it's just a matter of preference for an individual shooter? Best technique is behind the rifle. Just don’t sit so far behind the gun that it has a long run at you during recoil. Usually when someone shoots from beside the gun it’s because of body structure – I think I would need to climb on top of the bench at some ranges to get behind the rifle. I always thought it was me just being too stubborn to do the right thing but have met some men who said they also can’t get behind the rifle on some ranges. When I shoot from beside the rifle, the butt stock doesn’t hit me in the shoulder pocket, but on the bony part of my arm. With practice I’ve learned to not move the rifle during firing, and I use a pad on my arm to stop the bruises. When you watch my video online you’ll see me reflexively grabbing the stock with my shooting hand, which is a flinch from my arm getting hammered over the years. Learn to shoot with the rifle recoiling directly into your shoulder pocket if you can – you’ll have a better sight picture and return the gun to battery more reliably by pushing your shoulder forward.

Settle the rifle into the bags before firing. The stock should ride on the ears and not bottom out in the v-groove of the rear bag. Why is it important that the stock not bottom out in the v-groove? Too much friction? or? If the stock is 1.25" wide at the bottom, with FLAT bottom except for 1/8" radious on each side edge, how wide should the slot between the ears in the Protektor flattop rear bag ideally be? (THe widest they offer is 1" without asking for a custom built bag) You shouldn’t have trouble with a new Protektor rear bag and your stock profile. What causes erratic accuracy is the stock bouncing on an unyielding surface, either a front rest that’s compacted or filled too hard (periodically remove the sand bag and ‘fluff’ it to keep it soft) or a rear bag where the stock is bottomed out on the hard-packed bag. The ears are there for more than keeping the rifle from canting, the ears are softer than the bottom surface and will absorb vibration. Another note, if the stock rides on top of the front stop you’ll see flyers, so periodically check the stop hasn’t loosened and dropped over time with rough handling of the front rest.

If the rifle drags in the bags it will cause accuracy problems.Use teflon stock tape and place a used dryer sheet under the stock to help the rifle slide in the bags. Some shooters use powder but I find it messy, and it gets gummy on wet days. I have ordered a Protektor flattop bag with the "Slick Silver" option. But it sounds like the dryer sheet might be a good additonal idea to not only ensure low friction, but also minimize bag surface wear. I always use a dryer sheet. Not so much worried about the bag wearing out.

Flinching the shoulder into the butt stock on firing will change the point of impact. This is often seen as vertical on target. I also sometimes nudge the rear bag sideways when I overhandle the rifle (not being directly behind the gun sets me up for this problem). Practice pinning the rifle against the front stop and shooting with a consistent shoulder hold. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Right now, I still have the muzzle brake on the rifle that was standard equipment on it when ordered from PGW Defence. So I have zero problem with recoil and so no flinch. But that muzzle brake will need to come off for F-Class, and that will change both the recoil and the POI probably. But I have fired plenty of strong caliber rifles and handguns in the past, and don't seem to flinch as I am pretty stocky in build (190 lb in a frame that has shrunk at my age to just 5'7"!). With the muzzle brake in place for load testing, I am able to shoot almost "free recoil" with just the lightest shoulder contact and trigger hand contact. Maybe the word ‘flinching’ is too much – even slight pressure on the stock will cause change in POI, but you mentioned that below. For anyone else following this thread, if you think you have a flinch then practice dry firing the rifle (center-fire only, a rimfire will be damaged by dry firing). Helped me shoot smoother (smooth is fast) and without the dreaded ‘double clutch’ caused by jamming the bolt due to poor technique.

Watch how you lean against the bench – see how much the reticle moves on target if you lean into or let up against the bench. Some benches have unstable platforms and can rock when someone walks behind you. Yes, although the bench seems very solid, I myself cause reticle movement with my slight hold pressure variations. I can also literally see my heartbeat (I have an unusually low heartrate that averages in the low 50s when not sleeping). That’s exactly the idea, you need to become aware of how you’re influencing the POI by your handling. The bench issue was OPEX gained by traveling to many ranges around the world. I check every bench now for movement, and then focus on how much pressure I put against the side of the bench if it’s a problem.

Don’t allow the rifle to cant in the bags. If you’re shooting a traditional-style hunting stock this can be difficult to prevent, especially if you're using a tactical "cheek weld" hold – the top benchrest shooters have low-profile stocks and shoot free recoil, but I understand you might be shooting a larger caliber so a firm (but stable) hold would be needed. I am shooting avery mild 6.5Creedmoor load - 120g Hornady ELD Match at 2700 fps. The toe of my stock is 1.25" wide and is flat except for that 1/8" radius on the edge of each side. I level the rifle precisely beforehand using a very sensitive iPhone app with the phone laying across the top turret of the scope. And as mentioned earlier, my hold is very light. So, cant has not been a problem. Sounds like canting the rifle isn't a problem, but I'm curious about the ammunition since you mentioned it. I don’t know Creedmoor loads, since I shoot 67 gr match bullets in 6PPC (my husband and I swage our own bullets) pushed to an undisclosed muzzle velocity (suffice it to say it’s above 2700 fps.) The load gives me 1/10” MOA routinely out to 200 yards in mild wind conditions, and when tuned correctly will shoot through moderate conditions. If I’m shooting 1/4" MOA then I’m not competitive at a match unless the winds are beyond sporty. You’d be surprised how much a wind-sensitive load will cause horrible accuracy at 100 yards. Suggest you look at your ammo and see whether it’s accurate at short range – if I’m not mistaken the ELDs stabilize around 200 yards and then have awesome ballistics at long range. There’s a lot of voodoo in getting a bullet to go to sleep within 100 yards.

Here's what I would do next, although you’re on the right track with getting your equipment upgraded. Three things come to mind, what I would do at the range when I run into trouble myself. 1) Ask someone to watch your technique. Or prop your iPhone on the bench and video yourself. 2) Ask a competitive shooter at your range to shoot your set-up. They may have the same accuracy problems using your equipment/loads and give you hints to fix. 3) Ask to shoot another competitor’s rifle, or rest etc. This favor comes with getting to know folks at the range. But benchrest shooters are a helpful lot and want to encourage people to succeed in the sport – I’ve often let a new shooter pull the trigger on my rifle during practice so they can see what a proper set-up looks like. Also, when I’m struggling (lost) during a competition I’ll ask my husband to leave his rifle/rest on the bench for me to shoot, so I can troubleshoot if the problem is with my missing conditions (head problem) or my set-up.

Thank-you, Vera. You asked about my ammunition, and suggested I get some in-person on-range coaching:

I am brand new to shooting PRECISION level rifles. So I ordered a PGW Defence M15 XRS in 6.5 Creedmoor. The M15 is a Remington 700 pattern action on a MDT XRS encapsulated alloy chassis. PGW Defence is the Canadian firm that builds sniper rifles for International militaries. I chose this rifle because of its superb accuracy, ruggedness, weight (13.39 lb with scope, but before front rest or bipod) and conservative look and feel despite the alloy chassis.




I chose 6.5 Creedmoor for it's superior 100 to 1000 yard ballistics, its light recoil, its reasonable barrel life, and its ample supply of very low drag bullets.

I live on Vancouver Island, where shooting ranges are not generally "right nearby", so I am fortunate to have a local range within 18 minutes, where I can practice regularly easily, BUT it is only a 300 yard range. I will have to make a full-day trip of it later when I am ready to shoot 600 or 1000 yards, to a 1000 yard range 2 hours away by car each way. So I wanted to start with bullets that perform reasonably well across the entire 100 to 1000 yard range.

I am using the 120g Hornady ELD Match bullet, and loading based on Hornady's load table for it in the Hornady loading manual. I wanted to try the 140g Hornady as well, but availability here in Canada,as you know, is very limited right now due to COVID supply line disruptions.

Powder has also been a huge issue, with NO H4350 or Accurate 4350 being available. I managed to find an 8 lb jug of IMR 4350. Ladder testing showed nodes at 41.4g and 43.2g, and the 41.4 shot better in my rifle than the 43.2. The 41.4 also extends barrel life, and its trajectory works with my 25 MOA built-in rifle scope rail plus the 55 MOA range of my Vortex scope (With a 100 yard zero, I have 3-5/8 MOA of downward adjustment still available, and 51.375 MOA of upward adjustment available).

The Hornady online trajectory calculator for this specific bullet says I will need 36.3 MOA of come up at 100 yards.

You also recommended I get some in-person on-range coaching.

I have initiated some activity in that regard. There is a local very experienced shooter whom I see a lot at the range, and I have asked him if he could spend some time coaching me the next time we are both there.

And my F-Class buddy, who lives a day's drive away, said a day or 2 ago that he will try to get out here to my place sometime in August, and we can shoot together at the local range where he can coach me. He is an excellent F-Class shooter who has in the past won provincial championships, so his coaching will likely be very helpful.

I noticed on your website that you and your husband live in Elmira. My wife's relatives are all in Southwestern Ontario as well, in Sarnia and Owen Sound. Due to COVID, we have been unable to see them for quite a while now. I find Sarnia a little too flat and the weather too humid, but love Owen Sound's topography and vibe! Since you are only about 100 km from Owen Sound, I imagine your weather and topography might be more like the weather there.

Thanks again for your kind help here. If you ever run a shooting class, and we all recover from the COVID travel and logistic issues sometime soon, I'd be interested .

Jim G

 

[G & V Carter]

Hi Jim, for what it's worth I'm getting ready to post an online training course (with fear and trepidation if there will be interest in a narrow niche like benchrest, but today has been encouraging).
Would include equipment set-up, hand loading, reading the wind, tactics and strategies.
I enjoyed our exchange today, I think you're well on your way to achieving the accuracy you're looking for
cheers
Vera

 

[JimGnitecki]

Hi Jim, for what it's worth I'm getting ready to post an online training course (with fear and trepidation if there will be interest in a narrow niche like benchrest, but today has been encouraging).
Would include equipment set-up, hand loading, reading the wind, tactics and strategies.
I enjoyed our exchange today, I think you're well on your way to achieving the accuracy you're looking for
cheers
Vera

I'll be looking for that online course on your website, Vera. If you are starting a list of prospective students, add me to the list. I knwo the difference a great teacher can make. Back in the 1990s, when I lived for a long time in The U.S., I went to Chapman Academy in Missouri twice, multiple days each time, for handgun training. It really made a difference for me.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Vera: I went t the range yesterday and tried applying some of the advice you gave. It made a difference! I was testing 4 different BTO measurement loads, 12 rounds of each, so I was doing only 3-shot groups, so that fatigue would not start to over-influence the accuracy of each load. My best 2 3-shot groups were 0.13" and 0.19", which is an improvement over my prior best groups. Thank-you for your helpful advice!

Jim G

 

[jimsplce]

I would like to share my appreciation for this thread getting started.

Thank you Jim for asking the questions you did to start this thread, which lead to Vera replying and allowing me to be aware of her web site.

And, thank you Vera for getting involved and providing information that may help Jim and others, including me. I wasn't aware of your web site before, but I am now and have added it as one of my resources.

Thanks all.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Tony Boyer is one of the most well known Benchrest shooter champions of all time.I have now read most of the book he published back in 2010. It is, despite its 11 year age, fantastic, largely because it covers fundamentals, not fads, and covers ALL the fundamentals.

I read it not because I want to be a Benchrest shooter, although F-Class, “Belly Benchrest”, which I want to pursue, IS awfully close in basic concept to “Score” Benchrest (versus “Group” Benchrest). Rather I read it so that I can use Benchrest techniques to do a better job of testing loads, by factoring my human shooter shortcomings out of the testing as much as is possible.

I got the information I needed from the book on such topics as sitting position, importance of the stool placement and height, free recoil versus different holds, equipment needed, equipment setup, minimizing manipulation or pressuring of the rifle, sight picture fundamentals, and conditions monitoring and management.

But what was truly impressive is that the book equips a raw novice with ALL the preparatory knowledge he needs to start shooting Benchrest, leaving only the actual implementation and practice to learn, develop, and practice on his own. Boyle covers EVERYTHING, and is modest enough to say, repeatedly, that “this works for me but others use these different methods successfully”.

Anyone who reads the entire book will be reasonably well equipped to attend his first Benchrest meet, and know what to study in the equipment and techniques of other Benchrest shooters, and know how to not make a complete fool of himself at his first match.

I can see why this book is difficult to find “in stock” anywhere most of the time.

It’s also shown me how elegant Benchrest shooting actually is when done right, and makes me think about entering Benchrest matches in the future, even without having a true Benchrest rifle, just for the fun of it.

The book was so good that I felt I just had to say something about it here in this thread. It finally answered most of my questions about how to shoot better groups via Benchrest techniques.

Jim G

 

[Butch Lambert]

Tony Boyer is one of the most well known Benchrest shooter champions of all time.I have now read most of the book he published back in 2010. It is, despite its 11 year age, fantastic, largely because it covers fundamentals, not fads, and covers ALL the fundamentals.

I read it not because I want to be a Benchrest shooter, although F-Class, “Belly Benchrest”, which I want to pursue, IS awfully close in basic concept to “Score” Benchrest (versus “Group” Benchrest). Rather I read it so that I can use Benchrest techniques to do a better job of testing loads, by factoring my human shooter shortcomings out of the testing as much as is possible.

I got the information I needed from the book on such topics as sitting position, importance of the stool placement and height, free recoil versus different holds, equipment needed, equipment setup, minimizing manipulation or pressuring of the rifle, sight picture fundamentals, and conditions monitoring and management.

But what was truly impressive is that the book equips a raw novice with ALL the preparatory knowledge he needs to start shooting Benchrest, leaving only the actual implementation and practice to learn, develop, and practice on his own. Boyle covers EVERYTHING, and is modest enough to say, repeatedly, that “this works for me but others use these different methods successfully”.

Anyone who reads the entire book will be reasonably well equipped to attend his first Benchrest meet, and know what to study in the equipment and techniques of other Benchrest shooters, and know how to not make a complete fool of himself at his first match.

I can see why this book is difficult to find “in stock” anywhere most of the time.

It’s also shown me how elegant Benchrest shooting actually is when done right, and makes me think about entering Benchrest matches in the future, even without having a true Benchrest rifle, just for the fun of it.

The book was so good that I felt I just had to say something about it here in this thread. It finally answered most of my questions about how to shoot better groups via Benchrest techniques.

Jim G

Jim, I've known Tony for many years. He is by and far the greatest BR shooter in our World. Yes I have his book. I traveled to Mickey Coleman's place in Alabama for shooting lessons with Tony many years ago.
A small thing that impressed me most when Tony said he was going to sit in front of the adjacent bench facing me. He said he wanted to study my bench habits. He had a target and a pencil in his hand. I was shooting 200yds as we had very little condition. After each shot he made a mark on the target that he had in hand. He only watched me and never looked down range. After I was done he moved close and showed me what he had put on his target. He had drawn my shots perfectly, though the actual group was a little different in size. I asked how did he know that my first shot was a little high? Tony said I put a little thumb pressure on the top of the butt. The next shot was high and right. That was the result of thumb pressure and a little pressure from my hand on the butt. He knew where all 5 of my shots printed by watching me. Oh, my 2 sighters before the group were in the mothball.
I believe the best BR shooting book is by Mike Ratigan. Extreme Rifle Accuracy

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . .

I believe the best BR shooting book is by Mike Ratigan. Extreme Rifle Accuracy

I just found the Ratigan book at Sinclair (Brownells) and ordered it. Thank-you for the referall to it.

Jim G

 

[Al Nyhus]

Jim, one thing I've noticed is how excessively long most stocks are in L.O.P., relative to the individual shooter. If you're 5'7" tall and the stock has a 'standard' 13.5" L.O.P., I can guarantee that you have gun handling problems that will show up on the target.

A excessive L.O.P. doesn't allow the shooter to get behind the gun properly. Subsequently, the shoulder angle become more acute and that invites a whole bunch of other gun handling issues.

A close second to that is incorrect scope height.

Both of these come after Rule #1, which is using wind flags.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[JimGnitecki]

Jim, one thing I've noticed is how excessively long most stocks are in L.O.P., relative to the individual shooter. If you're 5'7" tall and the stock has a 'standard' 13.5" L.O.P., I can guarantee that you have gun handling problems that will show up on the target.

A excessive L.O.P. doesn't allow the shooter to get behind the gun properly. Subsequently, the shoulder angle become more acute and that invites a whole bunch of other gun handling issues.

A close second to that is incorrect scope height.

Both of these come after Rule #1, which is using wind flags.

Good shootin'. -Al

Al, your comment on length of pull is a good one. I am indeed only 5'7" in height. But, until I can find a local Benchrester to critique my shooting position ergonomics, I am unable to investigate and make adjsutments. In addition, right now, our local range is closed due to the extreme fire hazard due to draught. We actually had a small fire on the range which prompted the closure a week or 2 ago, just before the club closed the range.

Your mention of scope height is also good. When seeking the best scope longitudinal position and height, I actually found that I need to use a base with integral "High" rings, because of the position of my cheekbones. When I tried multiple sets of borrowed rings first, the low and mid height rings were simply too low, and my cheekbone was hitting the stock before I could align my eye to the scope in any naturally comfortable position. The bottom of my objective lens is a good 3/8 inch above the barrel, and NEEDS to be there for me to get a natural and comfortable and consistently repeatable sight picture.

Jim G

 

[Apollo]

Mr. Gnitecki. I just finished up this write up and video (inspired by your original question and my non-answer). I hope you can find one or two things that you can apply to your current setup. Hope all is well. https://www.ctdshooting.com/post/bench-set-up-enter-the-cycle-of-precision-and-accuracy

Jason Stanley

 

[JimGnitecki]

Mr. Gnitecki. I just finished up this write up and video (inspired by your original question and my non-answer). I hope you can find one or two things that you can apply to your current setup. Hope all is well. https://www.ctdshooting.com/post/bench-set-up-enter-the-cycle-of-precision-and-accuracy

Jason Stanley

THANK-YOU, Jason! I have flagged your post and will read it tomorrow! (Just got back from an e-mountain bike ride, so too tired to focus tonight!).

Jim G

edit: I recovered from the bike ride and read your writeup.It is VERY helpful. I especially like the "marked rope" idea. I have also bought 2 benchrest books recently. I have finished reading Tony Boyer's book (excellent) and have just started Mike Ratigan's book (VERY, VERY packed with details - each sentence merits extended thought!).

I have noted that all3 of you talked about marking up the shooting bench. This seems like at some pointm the ebnches become too busy to read! I have started using masking tape on the benchtop at the local range. That is working for me!

Our range is closed right now (3 weeks so far) due to the extreme fire hazard in our area due to lack of rain. Before it was closed, we had a small fire, which was quickly put out, but prompted the closure. No rain in the forecast at this point. So, no practicing for a while . . .

Jim G