I am wondering at point in your rifles life does it graduate from seeing the regular gunsmith to a benchrest gunsmith? I know that if it built up from scratch and it has a custom action and yada yada yada, then yeah, definitely want to have it worked on by the same benchrest gunsmith whom built it for you or a benchrest gunsmith at minimum. But is it out of the question to consider taking a factory rifel to a benchrest gunsmith after a regular gunsmith has done everything that can be done on a factory rifle. For example the typical hunting rifle accurized to a target only accuracy level. This would include a New free floating heavy barrel, action bedded, receiver trued, bolt lugs lapped, the typical stuff regular smiths can do. Now you want to drop in new jewell or Canjar trigger, is it at this point that it might be best to start looking for a benchrest gunsmith or is it not going to matter since you still have an accurized factory receiver sleeping in the factory stock which has been modified to suit the upgrades?
Benchrest gunsmith vs gunsmith
- Thread starter webphut
- Start date
Butch Lambert
Active member
Are you not capable of "dropping" a custom trigger yourself and oh, by the way, where would you find a Canjar? A good gunsmith can do "BR" or hunting rifle work as well as anybody.
A little birdie told me where there were three new ones left from when the wife liquidated the trigger shop after the husband who made them passed away. To my pleasant surprise they were the ones I had been looking for, for a while now. I have 2 Sako L461 6PPC's and a AII Varmint in .243 Winchester that I been wanting better triggers in. They just arrived today in the mail.
I one day hope to be able to attend a gunsmithing program at one of the three or is it four colleges. Until my daughter's are old enough for me to be away that long though, that's going to need to stay on the wish list.
I do not have the tools to install these myself. If inletting is needed, I would not want to ruin my stock trying with the incorrect tools and no gunsmithing experience, not to this level of gunsmithing anyway. You mention drop in. Are they truly just drop in,no inletting needed? I will check it out. My experience has only been with Timney, and they seam to always need inletting.
I one day hope to be able to attend a gunsmithing program at one of the three or is it four colleges. Until my daughter's are old enough for me to be away that long though, that's going to need to stay on the wish list.
I do not have the tools to install these myself. If inletting is needed, I would not want to ruin my stock trying with the incorrect tools and no gunsmithing experience, not to this level of gunsmithing anyway. You mention drop in. Are they truly just drop in,no inletting needed? I will check it out. My experience has only been with Timney, and they seam to always need inletting.
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A different take. (mine)
So, back in 1981-82 I went to Gunsmithing School. To learn how to be a gunsmith. It didn't work out as planned....I got expelled from the school, kicked out, sent packing so's I never got my diploma but, while I was in school I WAS the top in the class.
The day after I got expelled I went to work as a gunsmith and for the next 5 yrs I fixed guns in various shops and modified factory rifles to make them "accurate." I also had to get a construction job to feed my family. And over the ensuing yrs I gradually morphed from gunsmithing to construction and while I still had lots of ideas and "input" I paid other gunsmiths to do my machining work and stuff I I wasn't tooled up for. I had several different gunsmith's build hunting rifles to "benchrest spec" for instance........ basically supplying a blank check and saying "just do everything to it, build it like a Benchrest Rifle, but in such-and-such caliber."
I spent a lot of money on my experiments and learned a lot.
Then (without boring you all the reasons) I called a guy known as a Benchrest Gunsmith, a guy who'd actually built winning rifles. I spec'd it with a weird agglomeration of parts, and several barrels.....And I ordered a couple BR chamberings with it. And he put it in an actual McMillan BR stock.
And when I started shooting it it was like a great light opened up in the sky.
And a great sun smiled down.
And it warmed me.
And a Great Voice shou..............OK, now I'm just getting silly.
But it WAS like a great light! Suddenly it all made SENSE! I could see the wind!! I could see what all the kerfuffle was about!
EVERYTHING I thought I knew about accuracy, EVERY excuse, EVERY flier, EVERY "called miss" was simply dismissed. Gone. EVERY shot now had an explanation....the gun shot little round holes.
Most of the time.
I learned about weather and conditions and tuning and gremlins and sometimes just got lost and rooted about in circles but could generally wrinkle around until the gun showed the wind again...... I learned about holding my face right and follow-thru and holding my mouth right and "don't change your underwear when it's shooting good".... all of this on a home range in my own yard.
So then I took the NEXT really big step. I had a friend who trusted my judgement, this friend came to me and gave ME the blank check and said "I don't own a rifle. I've NEVER owned a rifle, but I've shot your stuff and I want one......please pick the bestest Gunsmith and have him make me the bestest setup using the bestest components and let HIM make all the decisions."
And I did.
And furthermore, I ordered 2 of them. I contracted with Jim Borden to have him build 2 rifles his way.
HIS way....
And AGAIN my bar was reset. Borden's Accuracy UNDERSTANDS accuracy, they don't assemble guns from parts.
I learned about repeatability, and tractability. I learned that while two guns may shoot similar looking dots on the surface..... one could be EASY and the other HARD. One could be shooting smaller dots, and one could be cutting the wind better, and one could KEEP shooting dots while the other could wander in and out of tune, forevermore NOT answering the age old question of "is it ME? or is it the GUN?"
So..... this is my garrulous way of saying "In My Experience, THE GUNSMITH is the single most important part of the equation!" And I used Borden's as an example because in my case Jim is the one I used and would use/recommend again. He's not the only one, there are several, but it pays to do your research IMO.
It IS NOT the indian, it's the arrow..... and a Benchrest Gunsmith can assemble a rifle that will shoot circles around another guy's collection of the highest rated winningest parts.
A Benchrest Gunsmith can make a Remington action shoot like a custom.
A gunsmith is very likely to make a custom job that shoots like a Remington.
opinionby
al
So, back in 1981-82 I went to Gunsmithing School. To learn how to be a gunsmith. It didn't work out as planned....I got expelled from the school, kicked out, sent packing so's I never got my diploma but, while I was in school I WAS the top in the class.
The day after I got expelled I went to work as a gunsmith and for the next 5 yrs I fixed guns in various shops and modified factory rifles to make them "accurate." I also had to get a construction job to feed my family. And over the ensuing yrs I gradually morphed from gunsmithing to construction and while I still had lots of ideas and "input" I paid other gunsmiths to do my machining work and stuff I I wasn't tooled up for. I had several different gunsmith's build hunting rifles to "benchrest spec" for instance........ basically supplying a blank check and saying "just do everything to it, build it like a Benchrest Rifle, but in such-and-such caliber."
I spent a lot of money on my experiments and learned a lot.
Then (without boring you all the reasons) I called a guy known as a Benchrest Gunsmith, a guy who'd actually built winning rifles. I spec'd it with a weird agglomeration of parts, and several barrels.....And I ordered a couple BR chamberings with it. And he put it in an actual McMillan BR stock.
And when I started shooting it it was like a great light opened up in the sky.
And a great sun smiled down.
And it warmed me.
And a Great Voice shou..............OK, now I'm just getting silly.
But it WAS like a great light! Suddenly it all made SENSE! I could see the wind!! I could see what all the kerfuffle was about!
EVERYTHING I thought I knew about accuracy, EVERY excuse, EVERY flier, EVERY "called miss" was simply dismissed. Gone. EVERY shot now had an explanation....the gun shot little round holes.
Most of the time.
I learned about weather and conditions and tuning and gremlins and sometimes just got lost and rooted about in circles but could generally wrinkle around until the gun showed the wind again...... I learned about holding my face right and follow-thru and holding my mouth right and "don't change your underwear when it's shooting good".... all of this on a home range in my own yard.
So then I took the NEXT really big step. I had a friend who trusted my judgement, this friend came to me and gave ME the blank check and said "I don't own a rifle. I've NEVER owned a rifle, but I've shot your stuff and I want one......please pick the bestest Gunsmith and have him make me the bestest setup using the bestest components and let HIM make all the decisions."
And I did.
And furthermore, I ordered 2 of them. I contracted with Jim Borden to have him build 2 rifles his way.
HIS way....
And AGAIN my bar was reset. Borden's Accuracy UNDERSTANDS accuracy, they don't assemble guns from parts.
I learned about repeatability, and tractability. I learned that while two guns may shoot similar looking dots on the surface..... one could be EASY and the other HARD. One could be shooting smaller dots, and one could be cutting the wind better, and one could KEEP shooting dots while the other could wander in and out of tune, forevermore NOT answering the age old question of "is it ME? or is it the GUN?"
So..... this is my garrulous way of saying "In My Experience, THE GUNSMITH is the single most important part of the equation!" And I used Borden's as an example because in my case Jim is the one I used and would use/recommend again. He's not the only one, there are several, but it pays to do your research IMO.
It IS NOT the indian, it's the arrow..... and a Benchrest Gunsmith can assemble a rifle that will shoot circles around another guy's collection of the highest rated winningest parts.
A Benchrest Gunsmith can make a Remington action shoot like a custom.
A gunsmith is very likely to make a custom job that shoots like a Remington.
opinionby
al
Yeah if I did it all over again....LOL, anyways that's kind of where I am at. Do I keep trying to get more out of my rifle or sell three of them and just custome order me a super nice one like you described above. Hopefully the lights will go on for me too. I have three Sako's, which I could sell and have maybe enough for a a super nice 6BR or 6PPC.
OK, let me be clear.... the BR Rifle NEED NOT BE super nice! It just has to be assembled right.
Nor does "assembled right" necessarily cost more. I actually DID sell 4 6PPC USA rifles, one of them a Sako A1, but it took only two of them to pay for my first real brandie-new BR rifle and I could have bought a fugly one for just what I got out of the A1
One thing I'll recommend is that if you plan on shooting for a few more years do yourself a favor and buy right.....for instance, the BR Rifle is useless without matching fitted dies so consider buying your own reamer (200.00) and have a rifle built, then you can buy a fitted sizer for 100-175.00 depending on the brand and you'll have a PACKAGE that shoots.
Right now you've 3 rifles with 3 chambers, all different. The only conceivable way for you to realize their accuracy is by using a Wilson Hand Die setup and shooting at about 3250fps.
Keep Those Lugs Greased!
Butch Lambert
Active member
If you want an excellent smith, you have one in your neighborhood. Visit with Pete Pieper in Hempstead,Tx. http://www.precisionbarrelwork.com/
I've known Pete for about 25yrs. Quick, honest, and does great work. He has all new and excellent equipment.
Thank you, and thank you for link....I will contact them. I am not worried about the cost of the new custom rifle, but I only have so much room in my safe and it has no vacant slots. I was going to clear out my hybrids from my safe and figured use the money for custom BR rifle in 6BR or 6PPC no turn. I love my hubrids, but I think I am ready to buy me a true BR rifle. I probably will never shoot competitively, but I have always wanted to be able to have one and I am thinking why not at this point. Keep pouring money into a rifle that was designed for hunting or buy a rifle designed for 100 to 300 yards off a bench. Maybe I should have considered this when I was 20 years old instead of now, 43 years old. Might have saved some money...lol
Butch Lambert
Active member
Go to the Tomball Gunclub on April 22nd for the Texas State VFS and check out their rifles. They will be happy to talk and help you.
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I am assuming the gates are open to the public on this date, as I am not a member...LOL.
Now the questions are showering through my mind.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Members, participants, and spectators are welcome.
I've gone to matches, got there early, brought a spotting scope on a standup tripod, stayed late and been blessed by wonderful men willing and eager to share their sport. From this I was given opportunity, invited to meet and shoot with actual winning competitors.
Life Changing stuff, for me.
Life Changing stuff, for me.
I looked at Tomball's Calendar and they have it down as Saturday April 22, 2018, but that date is actually a Sunday on my calendar. I am thinking they mean Saturday April 21, 2018. Would this be correct?
oops, never mind it is on Sunday, their calendar is laid out Monday through Sunday, not Saturday through Sunday.
oops, never mind it is on Sunday, their calendar is laid out Monday through Sunday, not Saturday through Sunday.
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jackie schmidt
New member
Webphut, many of the answers you want are predicated on just what type of shooting you are involved in.
If you want to shoot Benchrest, (with a Capitol "B"), you need a real Benchrest Rifle smithed by somebody that understands the perameters of that shooting discipline.
A Benchrest Rifle is a very singular piece of equipment in it's purpose. Truth is, most of the things that allow a Benchrest Rifle to perform in it's inviroment make it pretty well useless for other shooting Disciplines.
A good analogy is a NHRA Pro Stock Car. We marvel at the 6.50 ET's at 210+ mph, but you certainly wouldn't want to get caught in 5 o'clock traffic in it. It does what it does very well, but out of it's realm, it's pretty much useless.
If you want a Pro Stock Car built, you go to someone who knows the requirements of that endevour.
The requirements of a Benchrest Rifle are on the same plain. There are a multitude of items that must be addressed, many that 99 percent of the shooting public have no knowledge of, or for that matter, even need knowledge of.
In simple terms. In 100/200/300 yard Benchrest Group and Score Shooting, we sacrifice all other parameters of Rifle performance for a Rifles ability to shoot small aggrates or high scores in the Competitive Arena.
If you want to shoot Benchrest, (with a Capitol "B"), you need a real Benchrest Rifle smithed by somebody that understands the perameters of that shooting discipline.
A Benchrest Rifle is a very singular piece of equipment in it's purpose. Truth is, most of the things that allow a Benchrest Rifle to perform in it's inviroment make it pretty well useless for other shooting Disciplines.
A good analogy is a NHRA Pro Stock Car. We marvel at the 6.50 ET's at 210+ mph, but you certainly wouldn't want to get caught in 5 o'clock traffic in it. It does what it does very well, but out of it's realm, it's pretty much useless.
If you want a Pro Stock Car built, you go to someone who knows the requirements of that endevour.
The requirements of a Benchrest Rifle are on the same plain. There are a multitude of items that must be addressed, many that 99 percent of the shooting public have no knowledge of, or for that matter, even need knowledge of.
In simple terms. In 100/200/300 yard Benchrest Group and Score Shooting, we sacrifice all other parameters of Rifle performance for a Rifles ability to shoot small aggrates or high scores in the Competitive Arena.
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GeneT
Active member
So I've been racking my brain about these differences. I've come up with the following:
1. Chambers tight enough (and matching ammo) that they are not very impervious to the dirt / dust that might be expected in a field gun.
2. More delicate trigger mechanisms (more of a component selection issue).
3. elimination of magazine feed and associated accuracy compromises (yet some BR guns still have drop ports or dual ports).
4. Perhaps limiting port size such that a loaded round can't be ejected readily. (again, component selection)
5. Lightweight rings and bases - not robust enough for field handling, but "necessary" to put weight where it's most meaningful for accuracy.
I think this could be an interesting discussion. Jackie (or anyone else who 'smiths BR guns) what have I missed?
GsT
Greg Walley
Member
Webphut, you're getting good info here....... 'Greg Walley' equals Kelbly's https://www.kelbly.com/ he IS one of the best BR Gunsmiths on this planet 
jus' sayin'
jus' sayin'
adamsgt
Jerry Adams
My Google calendar puts April 11th on a Wednesday. What am I missing?
jackie schmidt
New member
Just double it. It's April 22.
Butch Lambert
Active member
I did screw up and edited my post.