S
Superman
Guest
Jim, to drop your 07 license in lieu of an 01 license would be taking a step backwards IMO. The 07 will allow you to do everything the 01 will and a lot more!
BATFE rules re mfg???
- Thread starter alinwa
- Start date
Jim, to drop your 07 license in lieu of an 01 license would be taking a step backwards IMO. The 07 will allow you to do everything the 01 will and a lot more!
J
Jim S
Guest
This comes from the dec 10 release that superseeds all earlier releases, see my post on page one.
Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts.
you will notice in the above "fiearms" is defined as (frames,recievers, or otherwise). That definition aplies to any place you see the word "firearms". You will also notice "recieved from customer"
As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (here we see firearms which alos includes frames and recievers by definition) (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured.
In this section you will notice the first 5 words, this section refers to lic. gunsmiths who do contract work for a lic. manf. "as with an individual customer" means it applies similarly to the first paragraph above reffering to individual customers. So according to this release a gunsmith can do contract work for a lic manf who supplies the parts. But the below section must also apply.
Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
This defines the requirement of the gunsmith vs manf. definition. The firearms once serviced by the lic. gunsmith MUST be returned to the lic manf. for "sale or distribution". A gunsmith is not a manf. if he does not build the rifles for sale or distribution.
So the clear cut description is the "sale and distribution" clause. If you modify any rifle or build from a reciever any rifle and then put it up for sale on you showroom, web-site or forum you have just made yourself a manf. thus requiring a manf. lic.
If on the other hand you assemble component parts into rifles, BY REQUEST of another, and that person OWNS the firearm(reciever or frame) then you fall under gunsmithing.
I believe the reason for this most recent ruling (dec 10) on the subject was to clear up the many past confusing bullitens on the subject and the mass of questions the atf was getting on a daily basis about this subject.
Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts.
you will notice in the above "fiearms" is defined as (frames,recievers, or otherwise). That definition aplies to any place you see the word "firearms". You will also notice "recieved from customer"
As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (here we see firearms which alos includes frames and recievers by definition) (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured.
In this section you will notice the first 5 words, this section refers to lic. gunsmiths who do contract work for a lic. manf. "as with an individual customer" means it applies similarly to the first paragraph above reffering to individual customers. So according to this release a gunsmith can do contract work for a lic manf who supplies the parts. But the below section must also apply.
Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
This defines the requirement of the gunsmith vs manf. definition. The firearms once serviced by the lic. gunsmith MUST be returned to the lic manf. for "sale or distribution". A gunsmith is not a manf. if he does not build the rifles for sale or distribution.
So the clear cut description is the "sale and distribution" clause. If you modify any rifle or build from a reciever any rifle and then put it up for sale on you showroom, web-site or forum you have just made yourself a manf. thus requiring a manf. lic.
If on the other hand you assemble component parts into rifles, BY REQUEST of another, and that person OWNS the firearm(reciever or frame) then you fall under gunsmithing.
I believe the reason for this most recent ruling (dec 10) on the subject was to clear up the many past confusing bullitens on the subject and the mass of questions the atf was getting on a daily basis about this subject.
J
Jim S
Guest
al, I can't give you a legal binding answer to that, I would show my field agent the dec 10 release and discuss that with him, or get a legal ruling.
but from the dec 2010 release I would say yes, in my opinion from what is written in the release, with an 01 license.
now if you build the rifle, with-out having a customer who owns it, and then you put it up for sale, thats going to require a manf. lic.
but from the dec 2010 release I would say yes, in my opinion from what is written in the release, with an 01 license.
now if you build the rifle, with-out having a customer who owns it, and then you put it up for sale, thats going to require a manf. lic.
OK, these questions are also all being fielded by the 'local' BATFE field agent (he's 150 miles away) via email so I'm getting written confirmation of everything...I'm not emailing anything related to this forum, just asking the same questions.
What's really bugging me about all this is I DON'T FEAR MY GOVERNMENT!!! I've read the other thread linkied above and others and phrases like "don't wake the bear" and "going to jail" and "ask 10 agents, get 10 answers" just enfuriate me!
ALL I want is clarity.
We hired these guys (ATF/BATF/BATFE) and pay their wages but it's hard to get clarity from them. I've fought for clarity on issues from arsenic in well water to Native American artifacts in building sites to flood plain rulings to the definition of "taxable items" to ????? you name it, for years and I just can't stand unresolved questions. I absolutely will not work "hoping I don't get in trouble."
And this "errornet" as it was called above is the finest tool ever devised in my search for clarity. As one who owns thousands of books, reference books of all sorts from Phys/Chem to Brittanica the World Book to math texts AND who keeps lists of govt agencies and phone numbers close to hand....I learned a long time ago that "the definitive work" is still generally just one mans view, whereas Wikipedia and peer-reviewed forums comprised of knowledgeable people are constantly being refined in real time.
I appreciate everyone who's helping me weed through this thing, thank you all for your time.
al
Superman,
please explain for our dear readers how many extra guns you will have to "manufacture" just to cover the cost of the 07 license. I've been a small business owner for 25+ yrs. This sort of cost equates to me as "this is how much I'll have to work just to pay for this license that I may not need."
How many rifles must you build to make the 07 pay off?
al
jackie schmidt
New member
We hashed this out last year, with a little bit of a different take, mainly the installing of barrels on actions for friends by other friends who have no license at all.
The final agreement seemed to be, that as long as you did not take poccession of the serial numbered piece, (ie, the action), you could do anything you wanted.
That meant that the friend would have to come over, give you the action, watch you chamber and install the barrel, and then leave with the piece. In a sense, you never take poccession of the criticle piece that is controled by the FireArms Act.
That is what I have been doing. As far as I know, I am doing nothing illegal. Or, heck, maybe I am.............jackie
The final agreement seemed to be, that as long as you did not take poccession of the serial numbered piece, (ie, the action), you could do anything you wanted.
That meant that the friend would have to come over, give you the action, watch you chamber and install the barrel, and then leave with the piece. In a sense, you never take poccession of the criticle piece that is controled by the FireArms Act.
That is what I have been doing. As far as I know, I am doing nothing illegal. Or, heck, maybe I am.............jackie
Gene DeLoney
New member
OK.......If an individual buys an action and fills out the 4473 at his local gun store and takes posession then builds the gun himself is he an unlicensed manufacturer?
I wonder how many "self" gunsmiths have done this?
And what happens when he goes to sell the gun and ownership is transfered?????
Gene
I wonder how many "self" gunsmiths have done this?
And what happens when he goes to sell the gun and ownership is transfered?????
Gene
G
glbreil
Guest
In a letter from the ATF in response to a similar question I received prior to this ruling so I guess it no longer counts, but they specifically said that I could not sell the gun or action to the person that I was re-barreling it for. The customer had to supply it or I was the manufacturer and it had to come from a source besides me.
Now for the 07 license holders, is registering with the state department required or not? The 07 license is cheap, but from what I have read registering with the state department is around $3000.00 per year. Although like most of the stuff you read an interpreter is required.
Thanks Gary
Now for the 07 license holders, is registering with the state department required or not? The 07 license is cheap, but from what I have read registering with the state department is around $3000.00 per year. Although like most of the stuff you read an interpreter is required.
Thanks Gary
Gene DeLoney
New member
More thoughts...... If an action does't become a firearm till the barrel is installed why does the buyer have to fill out the 4473 and register it in his name when at that point said action is only a fancy paper weight??????? Isn't the action maker the manufacturer?
Gene
Gene
You're right, the license isn't the biggie.... I've gotten quotes from $1700 to $2800.00 for keeping current with the state PLUS the insurance requirements.
We haven't really gotten to the associated cost factors yet, I'm just looking for "can do/can't do" at this point.
Waiting for Superman's answer....
IF 10% is a reasonable markup and IF all sales go smoothly and IF a guy never screws up........ lemme' see, what's the math for making up 3,000-5,000/year?
Starting to sound like WORK to me!
LOL
al
S
Superman
Guest
Al, my 07 license cost exactly the same as my 01 and my 06. The 07 will let me do everything the 01 and 06 will do and more, like manufacturing firearms for example, which I cannot do with my other 2 licenses. I should have gotten the 07 in the first place, but my ATF agent didn't advise me of that during my initial consultation. The laws or interpretations of the law have been clarified by official rulings in the last 6 months, and it has changed a lot of things. I CAN build a gun for sale if I want to with my 07, I could never do that with just an 01.
Does that satisfy your question?
Does that satisfy your question?
So you're saying from experience that the extra costs have been way overplayed?
thanks
al
S
Superman
Guest
I'm saying the ATF has told me I do not have to register with the State Dept. and ITAR. I've asked for an official ruling on that as well. For me, I have the 07 because it covers everything I do now or might want to do in the future except suppressors and SBR's. It doesn't cost me any more to have an 07 than it does an 01, and my 07 would also make my 06 unnecessary.
R
Russ Rosene
Guest
Type 7
Al,
One of my customers [type 1] called me with this very concern as the ATF would be arriving at his door the next morning. Having dealt with several agents to date I told him the type 7 would be the way to go, his bases would be covered - a moot point at the time.
We spoke after the audit and the agent told him his opinion was the gunsmithing operation [as run at this location] only required a type 1, but that was the agent's view. The agent recommended the type 7 and the cost for the gunsmith was $150.
Get the type 7 and boldly go forth.
Russ
Russ
Al,
One of my customers [type 1] called me with this very concern as the ATF would be arriving at his door the next morning. Having dealt with several agents to date I told him the type 7 would be the way to go, his bases would be covered - a moot point at the time.
We spoke after the audit and the agent told him his opinion was the gunsmithing operation [as run at this location] only required a type 1, but that was the agent's view. The agent recommended the type 7 and the cost for the gunsmith was $150.
Get the type 7 and boldly go forth.
Russ
Russ
Jim Borden
New member
All manuafacturers of any firearms components have to be registered with the US State Department-some have found that out the hard way.
The first few sentences of the ITAR are very clear about that. You do not need an 07 ffl to manufacture barrels, stocks or triggers--yet you need to be registered with State Department as a firearms manufacturer. By having an 07 ffl-you are already declaring yourself as a firearms manufacturer and need to be registered with the sate Department.
By the way--the ATF is not the one to ask about being registered with the State Department.
The first few sentences of the ITAR are very clear about that. You do not need an 07 ffl to manufacture barrels, stocks or triggers--yet you need to be registered with State Department as a firearms manufacturer. By having an 07 ffl-you are already declaring yourself as a firearms manufacturer and need to be registered with the sate Department.
By the way--the ATF is not the one to ask about being registered with the State Department.
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S
spencer313
Guest
In fact, the BATFE agent I talked to specifically declined to offer advice on the State Department requirements. Essentially, "that's not our department."