BATFE rules re mfg???
- Thread starter alinwa
- Start date
S
spencer313
Guest
A license is required for the "business" of gunsmithing. But, a barrel does not carry a serial number, as a receiver does. So, it's not manufacturing.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wayne Shaw
Active member
That is right. An ATF agent told me I didn't need the 07 license since I don't "manufacture" receivers. All you need is an 01.
Jim Borden
New member
If you buy actions and barrel them-you need 07 ffl. If customer provides action and barrel it-you just need 01 ffl
Bill Scheider
Bill Scheider
We were required to have a 01 FFL for our Bullet Making enterprise _ forget about any arguments that a "bullet" is not Ammunition.
Per BATF, anyone making and selling bullets is an Ammunition Manufacturer and requires 01 FFL as well as any Business License required by your municipality.
Per BATF, anyone making and selling bullets is an Ammunition Manufacturer and requires 01 FFL as well as any Business License required by your municipality.
J
JDS
Guest
I don't know what a 01 or 07 ffl is. I have a 06 for the manufacture of ammunition for fire arms (Required for bullet making). My agent said if i only do re-barrels and don't keep the action on premises over night I don't need another license (Nor can I receive fire arms mailed to me). I have found that if you ask 3 different agents the same question you get 3 different answers.
J
Jim S
Guest
This release came out last year. It is very difinitive on the distinction. THE major sticking point to put you in the MANF catagory is if you "sell or distribute the firearms manufactured"
Pay sepecial attention to the Gunsmithing paragraph.
I carry both licences and run 2 sets of books as explained in the text.
All recievers that I order from action makers get checked into the 01 book as they may be sold to other dealers, or to customers as recievers only.
If I build a rifle for a customer on them I transfer them to the manf 07 book.
You will also see that if a Manf request services from a gunsmith to assemble or manf. parts owned and supplied by the manf. the dealer gunsmith does not need to be a manf. Following the 3 conditions in the first paragraph below.
Enjoy,
Jim
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(i): Identification of Firearms
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.92: Identification of Firearms
Any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
ATF Rul. 2010-10
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from firearms industry members asking whether licensed dealer-gunsmiths who would be engaged in the business of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or manufacturer are required to be licensed as manufacturers and abide by the requirements imposed on manufacturers.
In recent years, licensed firearms importers and manufacturers have contracted certain firearms manufacturing activities on their behalf to specialized licensed firearms manufacturers. Such activities include applying special coatings and treatments to firearms (e.g., bluing, anodizing, powder-coating, plating, polishing, heat/chemical treating). This has caused confusion over which importers and manufacturers are required to identify/
mark firearms and maintain permanent records of importation or manufacture. For this reason, licensed importers and manufacturers have asked whether licensed dealer-gunsmiths, who are not required to mark firearms and keep production records, may engage in such manufacturing activities on their behalf.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 923(a), provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon. The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27 CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.” The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include “any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms …” (i.e., a gunsmith). As applied to a gunsmith, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit …”
In Revenue Ruling 55-342 (C.B. 1955-1, 562), ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms “manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license. Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution. Such persons must have a manufacturer’s license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing reports. The Revenue Ruling did not address whether dealer-gunsmiths who engage in the business of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of an importer or manufacturer are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
Manufacturing
ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license. For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms. Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license.
Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”).
Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts. As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured. Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
In contrast, a dealer-gunsmith may make or acquire his/her own firearms, and repair, modify, embellish, refurbish, or install parts in or on those firearms. If the dealer-gunsmith then sells or distributes those firearms for livelihood and profit, the dealer-gunsmith is engaged in his/her own business of manufacturing firearms. A person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution is required to be licensed as a manufacturer, identify/mark all firearms manufactured, maintain permanent records of manufacture, submit annual manufacturing reports, and pay any taxes imposed on firearm manufacturers. A licensed dealer-gunsmith who becomes licensed as a manufacturer must also segregate all firearms manufactured for that business separately from firearms for which gunsmithing services are being performed.
To facilitate inspection and ensure that ATF can determine that a licensed dealer-gunsmith is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for his own sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license, licensees may take the following steps:
(1) maintain a copy of the current, active license of all contracted licensees;
(2) maintain a copy of the contract and all instructions for gunsmithing services rendered;
(3) maintain a copy of the invoices for gunsmithing services;
(4) timely and accurately reflect all firearms acquisitions and dispositions consistent with the contract for gunsmithing services rendered; and
(5) in the case of a licensed dealer-gunsmith, maintain required bound acquisition and disposition records for all gunsmithing activities separate from other dealer’s records.
Unless licensees take these steps, ATF may presume that a particular dealer-gunsmith is engaged in his own business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license, and take corrective administrative or other enforcement action.
Identification of Firearms
The GCA at 18 U.S.C. 923(i) provides, in part, that licensed manufacturers and importers must “identify” each firearm manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by regulation. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(1) further require importers and manufacturers to identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin on the frame, receiver, or barrel - at a minimum depth. Section 478.92(a)(2) specifies that a “firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of … must be identified as required by this section.”
Because dealer-gunsmiths are not required to identify firearms manufactured, it is incumbent upon the importer or manufacturer, prior to shipping firearms to a dealer-gunsmith for gunsmithing services, to mark them with a serial number and other required information. With regard to frames and receivers shipped separately, section 478.92(a)(2) provides, in part, that the manufacturer or importer must mark all frames and receivers prior to shipment with all information required by section 478.92 (i.e., serial number, model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin). This will ensure that the frames and receivers can be traced by ATF in the event they are lost or stolen during the manufacturing process.
Held, any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
This ruling is limited to an interpretation of the requirements imposed upon importers, manufacturers, and dealer-gunsmiths under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and does not apply to persons making or manufacturing firearms subject to the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5801 et. seq.
Revenue Ruling 55-342, C.B. 1955-1, 562, is hereby clarified. To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved: December 27, 2010
Kenneth E. Melson
Acting Director
Pay sepecial attention to the Gunsmithing paragraph.
I carry both licences and run 2 sets of books as explained in the text.
All recievers that I order from action makers get checked into the 01 book as they may be sold to other dealers, or to customers as recievers only.
If I build a rifle for a customer on them I transfer them to the manf 07 book.
You will also see that if a Manf request services from a gunsmith to assemble or manf. parts owned and supplied by the manf. the dealer gunsmith does not need to be a manf. Following the 3 conditions in the first paragraph below.
Enjoy,
Jim
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(i): Identification of Firearms
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.92: Identification of Firearms
Any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
ATF Rul. 2010-10
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from firearms industry members asking whether licensed dealer-gunsmiths who would be engaged in the business of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or manufacturer are required to be licensed as manufacturers and abide by the requirements imposed on manufacturers.
In recent years, licensed firearms importers and manufacturers have contracted certain firearms manufacturing activities on their behalf to specialized licensed firearms manufacturers. Such activities include applying special coatings and treatments to firearms (e.g., bluing, anodizing, powder-coating, plating, polishing, heat/chemical treating). This has caused confusion over which importers and manufacturers are required to identify/
mark firearms and maintain permanent records of importation or manufacture. For this reason, licensed importers and manufacturers have asked whether licensed dealer-gunsmiths, who are not required to mark firearms and keep production records, may engage in such manufacturing activities on their behalf.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 923(a), provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon. The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27 CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.” The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include “any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms …” (i.e., a gunsmith). As applied to a gunsmith, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit …”
In Revenue Ruling 55-342 (C.B. 1955-1, 562), ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms “manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license. Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution. Such persons must have a manufacturer’s license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing reports. The Revenue Ruling did not address whether dealer-gunsmiths who engage in the business of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of an importer or manufacturer are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
Manufacturing
ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license. For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms. Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license.
Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”).
Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts. As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured. Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.
In contrast, a dealer-gunsmith may make or acquire his/her own firearms, and repair, modify, embellish, refurbish, or install parts in or on those firearms. If the dealer-gunsmith then sells or distributes those firearms for livelihood and profit, the dealer-gunsmith is engaged in his/her own business of manufacturing firearms. A person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution is required to be licensed as a manufacturer, identify/mark all firearms manufactured, maintain permanent records of manufacture, submit annual manufacturing reports, and pay any taxes imposed on firearm manufacturers. A licensed dealer-gunsmith who becomes licensed as a manufacturer must also segregate all firearms manufactured for that business separately from firearms for which gunsmithing services are being performed.
To facilitate inspection and ensure that ATF can determine that a licensed dealer-gunsmith is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for his own sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license, licensees may take the following steps:
(1) maintain a copy of the current, active license of all contracted licensees;
(2) maintain a copy of the contract and all instructions for gunsmithing services rendered;
(3) maintain a copy of the invoices for gunsmithing services;
(4) timely and accurately reflect all firearms acquisitions and dispositions consistent with the contract for gunsmithing services rendered; and
(5) in the case of a licensed dealer-gunsmith, maintain required bound acquisition and disposition records for all gunsmithing activities separate from other dealer’s records.
Unless licensees take these steps, ATF may presume that a particular dealer-gunsmith is engaged in his own business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license, and take corrective administrative or other enforcement action.
Identification of Firearms
The GCA at 18 U.S.C. 923(i) provides, in part, that licensed manufacturers and importers must “identify” each firearm manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by regulation. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(1) further require importers and manufacturers to identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin on the frame, receiver, or barrel - at a minimum depth. Section 478.92(a)(2) specifies that a “firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of … must be identified as required by this section.”
Because dealer-gunsmiths are not required to identify firearms manufactured, it is incumbent upon the importer or manufacturer, prior to shipping firearms to a dealer-gunsmith for gunsmithing services, to mark them with a serial number and other required information. With regard to frames and receivers shipped separately, section 478.92(a)(2) provides, in part, that the manufacturer or importer must mark all frames and receivers prior to shipment with all information required by section 478.92 (i.e., serial number, model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin). This will ensure that the frames and receivers can be traced by ATF in the event they are lost or stolen during the manufacturing process.
Held, any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
This ruling is limited to an interpretation of the requirements imposed upon importers, manufacturers, and dealer-gunsmiths under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and does not apply to persons making or manufacturing firearms subject to the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5801 et. seq.
Revenue Ruling 55-342, C.B. 1955-1, 562, is hereby clarified. To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved: December 27, 2010
Kenneth E. Melson
Acting Director
Last edited by a moderator:
J
Jim S
Guest
Al, here's the batf link for industry releases, I suggest every one with an ffl make it a sticky and check it monthly.
The information and definitions or interpetations have changed considerably over the last 3 years, the above posted document does help the small one man gunsmith define his legal scope of work. Past releases were dificult to understand and open to interpitation this one is much more descriptive.
http://www.atf.gov/press/industry/firearms/releases-2010.html
I recently sent this to a friend in TX who did 95% gunsmithing services but local agent had him get a 07 lic 3 years ago. He has reviewed the dec 2010 release with his agent and the agent said he could switch to a 01 lic. He builds about 5 rifles a year on custom actions at the customers request, so never puts them up for "Sale or Distribution" That is and will be the sticking point with most regulators.
The information and definitions or interpetations have changed considerably over the last 3 years, the above posted document does help the small one man gunsmith define his legal scope of work. Past releases were dificult to understand and open to interpitation this one is much more descriptive.
http://www.atf.gov/press/industry/firearms/releases-2010.html
I recently sent this to a friend in TX who did 95% gunsmithing services but local agent had him get a 07 lic 3 years ago. He has reviewed the dec 2010 release with his agent and the agent said he could switch to a 01 lic. He builds about 5 rifles a year on custom actions at the customers request, so never puts them up for "Sale or Distribution" That is and will be the sticking point with most regulators.
Last edited by a moderator:
T
tenring
Guest
Fellows, I'm not a gun dealer or smith. I worked 42 years in the insurance industry. Something all of you should know: Whether BATF requires you to have a manufacturer's license or not - any one producing , from assembled components, any product offered for sale to the public, is by law A MANUFACTURER. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH batf RULES, IT IS BASED ON CASE LAW. For insurance purposes you will need product liability and completed operations coverages appended to your liability policy. I have emphasized this to several gunsmith friends, and none of them were aware of this. Of course, if they ever get sued, they will very quickly see the light. One big advantage is that if you have these coverages, the insurance carrier will pay your defense lawyer charges, and any verdict amount to the policy limit. Defense costs can add up quickly.
OK, thanks for the info so far.
So if my customer wants a rifle built on a Borden action....... He has to buy the action from Jim? I can't order in the action, sell it to him and then work on it?
And if I carry barrels and actions in stock like Lester Bruno then I must be licensed as a mfgr?
Is the sticker the actual stocking of the component actions/barrels thereby "owning" them?
thank you all
al
So if my customer wants a rifle built on a Borden action....... He has to buy the action from Jim? I can't order in the action, sell it to him and then work on it?
And if I carry barrels and actions in stock like Lester Bruno then I must be licensed as a mfgr?
Is the sticker the actual stocking of the component actions/barrels thereby "owning" them?
thank you all
al
J
Jim S
Guest
Al the big sticker is the "the making of firearms for sale or distribution" If you stock the parts and put a rifle together, then offer it for sale. Clear cut that is manf.
If you stock parts, sell parts to customer, customer returns parts for you to Gunsmith into a rifle for his use. That can be considered gunsmithing. Weather he bought the parts from you or Jim, the customer owns them and is requesting you to build a rifle.
From the above atf bulletin;
Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts.
This part is very enlightening as well;
Held, any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
If you stock parts, sell parts to customer, customer returns parts for you to Gunsmith into a rifle for his use. That can be considered gunsmithing. Weather he bought the parts from you or Jim, the customer owns them and is requesting you to build a rifle.
From the above atf bulletin;
Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts.
This part is very enlightening as well;
Held, any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
I See, I See, I'm slow but now I SEE thanks to Mr See 
Jim and you others were also clear, Jim's comment especially pithy.
Here's why I need the total clarity. I'm a contractor in the building trades, I deal with inspectors and code enforcement every day and am intimately familiar with what I call "the govt mindset." My tactic while dealing with a code enforcement official is to know more than he does about the subject at hand. I like to KNOW what's right, letter of the law, not be the guy asking "what can I do in this situation sir?" And the guy reviewing me for fitness for FFL sent me what was to me contradictory information. In some of our trades there's a gray area between owning, buying for another, "having in possession" etc. Many times I, as an installer, can't sell a person off the street a component which must be professionally installed.......like an action. I can't sell a guy a heatpump for instance, "because it doesn't have a cord on it."
I just need to be sure I can order in an action, transfer it to the client and take it back to work on. Same day.
This may seem an odd question from an odd viewpoint but you guys have clarified for my the difference between mfgr and gunsmithing.
thank you
al
Jim and you others were also clear, Jim's comment especially pithy.
Here's why I need the total clarity. I'm a contractor in the building trades, I deal with inspectors and code enforcement every day and am intimately familiar with what I call "the govt mindset." My tactic while dealing with a code enforcement official is to know more than he does about the subject at hand. I like to KNOW what's right, letter of the law, not be the guy asking "what can I do in this situation sir?" And the guy reviewing me for fitness for FFL sent me what was to me contradictory information. In some of our trades there's a gray area between owning, buying for another, "having in possession" etc. Many times I, as an installer, can't sell a person off the street a component which must be professionally installed.......like an action. I can't sell a guy a heatpump for instance, "because it doesn't have a cord on it."
I just need to be sure I can order in an action, transfer it to the client and take it back to work on. Same day.
This may seem an odd question from an odd viewpoint but you guys have clarified for my the difference between mfgr and gunsmithing.
thank you
al
M
max.burgess
Guest
What do you nead if you chamber barels for your own youse or for frinds not for hire . thanks max
Jim Borden
New member
Al and Jim
What I have been told is that if I own the action and sell to a customer and he later returns it to me for a build-it still counts as a manufactured item from me as I was the source of the action. If I also sold him the stock and trigger and then did all the work-it became a taxable manufactured item.
Jim
What I have been told is that if I own the action and sell to a customer and he later returns it to me for a build-it still counts as a manufactured item from me as I was the source of the action. If I also sold him the stock and trigger and then did all the work-it became a taxable manufactured item.
Jim
AHHHHhhhhh, so now I DON'T see again.
I'm glad I'm asking this because it's looking more and mopre like govt is govt is govt and I WILL NOT be involved in any sort of chicanery that could be construed as a sort of sleight of hand or straw sale. The problem is that IMO we're now back to my original question. IF WHAT JIM SAYS IS TRUE, then I have to make a potential client go off shopping around on his own gethering appropriate parts.... and then I can put them together.
there are two distinct items here, one is the question of licensing requirement and the other is how much of the work gets Pittman-Robertson'd.
One will cost the client money and collect more for the states to misapply as they see fit.
One will put the gunsmith in the path of "fines" or jail.....
And what bothers me is that this is "what Jim's been told."
To use another construction reference, I've worked in 30-40 different jurisdictions, I currently work in 15 different jurisdictions under 15 different sets of rules. I have to know local and national code requirements to such an extent that no inspector ANYWHERE that I work can find me in violation..... or it costs me money. I make it my business to absolutely KNOW where the buck stops. Generally here in the state of WA I end up "going over people's heads" until I reach the state capitol level in Olympia before the buck settles and I get a definitive answer. I've got a briefcase file full of these definitive clarifications. And I use them. When an inspector comes out and says "I'd like to see....." I know that there's a fracas brewing.
I make it my business to win the fracas'.
I do this by knowing the law.
So where are we really??? HOW can I assemble custom rifles without an 07 license??? Am I correct in saying that this is possible only by "by stocking NOTHING?" Can I even run the items through my business?
And then, what's "stocking?" A day? A week? A month?
and how many items is "stocking?" One? Three? A dozen?
I'm getting peevish
This is exactly why I've been unlicensed for the last 30yrs....
al
I'm glad I'm asking this because it's looking more and mopre like govt is govt is govt and I WILL NOT be involved in any sort of chicanery that could be construed as a sort of sleight of hand or straw sale. The problem is that IMO we're now back to my original question. IF WHAT JIM SAYS IS TRUE, then I have to make a potential client go off shopping around on his own gethering appropriate parts.... and then I can put them together.
there are two distinct items here, one is the question of licensing requirement and the other is how much of the work gets Pittman-Robertson'd.
One will cost the client money and collect more for the states to misapply as they see fit.
One will put the gunsmith in the path of "fines" or jail.....
And what bothers me is that this is "what Jim's been told."
To use another construction reference, I've worked in 30-40 different jurisdictions, I currently work in 15 different jurisdictions under 15 different sets of rules. I have to know local and national code requirements to such an extent that no inspector ANYWHERE that I work can find me in violation..... or it costs me money. I make it my business to absolutely KNOW where the buck stops. Generally here in the state of WA I end up "going over people's heads" until I reach the state capitol level in Olympia before the buck settles and I get a definitive answer. I've got a briefcase file full of these definitive clarifications. And I use them. When an inspector comes out and says "I'd like to see....." I know that there's a fracas brewing.
I make it my business to win the fracas'.
I do this by knowing the law.
So where are we really??? HOW can I assemble custom rifles without an 07 license??? Am I correct in saying that this is possible only by "by stocking NOTHING?" Can I even run the items through my business?
And then, what's "stocking?" A day? A week? A month?
and how many items is "stocking?" One? Three? A dozen?
I'm getting peevish
This is exactly why I've been unlicensed for the last 30yrs....
al
243winxb
Member
Thread on installing barrels + http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?59120-Gun-Laws-and-Doing-Barrel-Work.
J
Jim S
Guest
Part of the confusion problem with this whole deal is the company that holds the Manf licence, As in my case and Jim Bordens, As a Licensed manf. ANY rifle WE build as a FIRST time barreled reciever, Regaurdless of where or from whom the action comes from requires us to report this as a Manfactured Firearm on our year end report and to pay tax on it and all rifles we manf. if we manf. more than 49 in that calender year.
If you build 50+ rifles on RAW actions in a year you better have a manf. license. Because at that point you will be hard pressed to claim you are a gunsmith, when you are required to pay excise tax on all Manufactured rifles.
If you rebarrel remy actions or custom action and put them on your shelf for sale, YOU are a MANF. by atf rule.
The gunsmith exemption allows you to build 49 rifles in one year with out paying excise tax on those 49 firearms. This excise tax exempt also applies to a lic. manf. if he builds less than 49 in a year.
There are many intricacies to all this lic and manf, exeptions and such, it is best to walk a fine line on the side of caution. OR fit your buisness profile into a clear cut segment of what is alowable and avoid treading in the gray areas. I guess thats the reason I keep both licenses.
If you build 50+ rifles on RAW actions in a year you better have a manf. license. Because at that point you will be hard pressed to claim you are a gunsmith, when you are required to pay excise tax on all Manufactured rifles.
If you rebarrel remy actions or custom action and put them on your shelf for sale, YOU are a MANF. by atf rule.
The gunsmith exemption allows you to build 49 rifles in one year with out paying excise tax on those 49 firearms. This excise tax exempt also applies to a lic. manf. if he builds less than 49 in a year.
There are many intricacies to all this lic and manf, exeptions and such, it is best to walk a fine line on the side of caution. OR fit your buisness profile into a clear cut segment of what is alowable and avoid treading in the gray areas. I guess thats the reason I keep both licenses.
Vern
Morethan1waytoskinacat
I am ignorant in the area of license but and because..... isnt there a license that covers all of this?
If so is it a lot more expensive?
IF not why not just get that one and be done with it then you are covered no matter what you do?
Like I said I am IGNORANT (lack of knowledge) on this issue.
If so is it a lot more expensive?
IF not why not just get that one and be done with it then you are covered no matter what you do?
Like I said I am IGNORANT (lack of knowledge) on this issue.
J
Jim S
Guest
Vern, I keep both because, right now I do work for another manf. which prior to the dec 29 2010 ruling required me to have a manf. lic.
If that work dries up I will drop the manf. lic.
I will then work off my dealer/gunsmith lic. as it will cover the work I do. That may eventually cause me to turn down some work but I'm preparred to do that.
The biggest issue is these interpative rulings change frequently with the changing of addministrators at the batf, so one must stay on top of all this, as you can see from the dec 2010 release that superseeds all previous rulings on the matter.
If that work dries up I will drop the manf. lic.
I will then work off my dealer/gunsmith lic. as it will cover the work I do. That may eventually cause me to turn down some work but I'm preparred to do that.
The biggest issue is these interpative rulings change frequently with the changing of addministrators at the batf, so one must stay on top of all this, as you can see from the dec 2010 release that superseeds all previous rulings on the matter.
S
Superman
Guest
Al, been through all this myself. None of it is worth going to jail over, agreed? First thing to know, you're asking a bunch of guys on the "errornet" about ATF law, and that's a seriously bad idea.
If you stock actions in your shop, customer from somewhere calls you and says "I want a 6.5x47L, and you take the raw components and manufacture a firearm, you need a Type 07 license and could be applicable to Federal Excise tax is you build more than 50 a year.
If a customer sends you his new action and asks you to build him a 6.5x47L and you put a barrel on it and send him back a firearm, you have just manufactured and need a Type 07 license and could be applicable to Federal Excise tax is you build more than 50 a year.
If a customer sends you his shot out .308 and wants you to build him a 6.5x47L, you only have to have a Type 01 license and does not fall under any excise regulations because you are not building a gun, it already was one.
I have all of this coming to me in writing, which is official and is considered a legal ruling, the ATF agent read the official response to me the other day. The agent did not write this up, you have to submit a request, in writing, to the ATF and you too can get a ruling, and it comes from the "legal department".
I don't want to go to jail over "interpretations" so I have a Type 01, a Type 06, and a Type 07. I am actually in the process of getting an additional Type 07 as a result of the ruling I recently got so I can separate my handgun manufacturing from my rifle manufacturing.
BTW, you can ask 10 different ATF agents and get 10 different answers. Submit a formal request in writing and get something that can "CYA".
If you stock actions in your shop, customer from somewhere calls you and says "I want a 6.5x47L, and you take the raw components and manufacture a firearm, you need a Type 07 license and could be applicable to Federal Excise tax is you build more than 50 a year.
If a customer sends you his new action and asks you to build him a 6.5x47L and you put a barrel on it and send him back a firearm, you have just manufactured and need a Type 07 license and could be applicable to Federal Excise tax is you build more than 50 a year.
If a customer sends you his shot out .308 and wants you to build him a 6.5x47L, you only have to have a Type 01 license and does not fall under any excise regulations because you are not building a gun, it already was one.
I have all of this coming to me in writing, which is official and is considered a legal ruling, the ATF agent read the official response to me the other day. The agent did not write this up, you have to submit a request, in writing, to the ATF and you too can get a ruling, and it comes from the "legal department".
I don't want to go to jail over "interpretations" so I have a Type 01, a Type 06, and a Type 07. I am actually in the process of getting an additional Type 07 as a result of the ruling I recently got so I can separate my handgun manufacturing from my rifle manufacturing.
BTW, you can ask 10 different ATF agents and get 10 different answers. Submit a formal request in writing and get something that can "CYA".