Barrel Material

B

bolster55

Guest
Hello All,
Titanium for barrel material.
Has it been done before, is it possible, similar in machining quality to stainless, but more expensive but a lot of different grades availalable.
Anyone have any thoughts or experience with Titanium in this field?

Regards
 
The US Army tried it....

Years ago - lightweight howitzer barrel. They got a few shots out of it before accuracy disappeared. Turns out, chunks of rifling were being stripped out with each shot.

Today's lightweight howitzer proposals also have titanium barrels. Difference is, there's a steel liner inside the tube. This liner contains the rifling - and the cannon bore.

Smith and Wesson has a steel tube inside their titanium and scandium framed revolvers for the same reason.

Now, if you want a longer lived barrel, try using molybedenum, rhenium, or tungsten.
 
In the world of honing where I make my living we can have trouble with "pickup" on brass shoes when honing titanium. That is slow speeds with lots of high grade honing oil for lubrication. It would seem to me that a dry bullet with high barrel temperatures would be even worse. I can see a titanium barrel with a steel liner, but not without a liner.
 
It seems that galling may be the limiting factor in using Titanium for barrels. This may be overcome by coating the projectiles with maybe graphite or moly as is now done. Also the surface may be treated, such as nitriding?

Cheers
 
bolster55, i think if smith& wesson and army ordnance with their millions of dollars couldn't do it. I don't think a poster here will solve the problem for you.
What have you tried?? how did it work out???
 
bolster55 said:
It seems that galling may be the limiting factor in using Titanium for barrels. This may be overcome by coating the projectiles with maybe graphite or moly as is now done. Also the surface may be treated, such as nitriding?

Cheers
Click to expand...

Well OK OK, this IS BRC.........


Don't presume for a minute that everybody here thinks that moly and graphite "work" as you propose :rolleyes:

Speaking only for myself, the idea that moly or graphite or DanZak "lubricate" the bore is completely ludicrous! Also bore coating treatments like nitriding or even melonizing are ludicrous ..... That melonite coating the inside of he bore is "harmless" I agree. Luckily, or else it'd be a real pain to get a barrel melonite coated, but the idea that this or any other coating "extends bore life" just doesn't withstand scrutiny.

Titanium barrels are about as realistic as "ceramic barrels"........ When will people realize that just because a certain material exhibits "hardness" or "durability" does NOT make it suitable for everything! Jeepers, we can grow DIAMONDS cheap right now.. let's just make everything out of DIAMOND!!!


LOL :)


THINK people!


al
 
alinwa said:
Well OK OK, this IS BRC.........


Don't presume for a minute that everybody here thinks that moly and graphite "work" as you propose :rolleyes:

Speaking only for myself, the idea that moly or graphite or DanZak "lubricate" the bore is completely ludicrous! Also bore coating treatments like nitriding or even melonizing are ludicrous ..... That melonite coating the inside of he bore is "harmless" I agree. Luckily, or else it'd be a real pain to get a barrel melonite coated, but the idea that this or any other coating "extends bore life" just doesn't withstand scrutiny.

Titanium barrels are about as realistic as "ceramic barrels"........ When will people realize that just because a certain material exhibits "hardness" or "durability" does NOT make it suitable for everything! Jeepers, we can grow DIAMONDS cheap right now.. let's just make everything out of DIAMOND!!!


LOL :)


THINK people!


al
Click to expand...

Al...your scaring me, buddy. Make everything out of diamonds? Your starting to sound like my wife...

Justin
 
alinwa said:
Well OK OK, this IS BRC.........
Also bore coating treatments like nitriding or even melonizing are ludicrous .....
Click to expand...
Al,

Just because you shoot BR, don't presume to know everything - because in this case, you don't. Ion nitriding has been used for over 50 years to reduce barrel wear. Why? Because it works.

Titanium barrels are about as realistic as "ceramic barrels"........
Click to expand...
Both have been done. As discussed, Ti barrels don't work. Ceramic barrels do, but there are longevity issues. Combined with cost, this is why you don't see the latter in widespread use.

The topic is important enough to some that millions of dollars are spent in research efforts. For an example, see http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003gun/heim.pdf

THINK people!
Click to expand...
You first, Al.
 
The S&W revolvers don't............

have Scandium OR Titanium in the barrels!!! The Scandium is ONLY in the receiver & barrel shroud, there is a stainless barrel "liner" inside the shroud that has the rifling imparted through some nanoprocess. The Titanium is only used to form the cylinder & the extractor. :) Anybody know what the price of Scandium is now??? Last time I heard, the price was $7,000 a pound, & the largest deposits were in Russia.
 
Titainium

Anyone have a spare SR-71 sitting in the garage ? I'm sure we could build quite a few rigs from just 1 of those :D
 
Roger T said:
Anyone have a spare SR-71 sitting in the garage ? I'm sure we could build quite a few rigs from just 1 of those
Click to expand...
Go to it!

sr71.jpg
 
Asa Yam said:
Al,

Just because you shoot BR, don't presume to know everything - because in this case, you don't. Ion nitriding has been used for over 50 years to reduce barrel wear. Why? Because it works.


Both have been done. As discussed, Ti barrels don't work. Ceramic barrels do, but there are longevity issues. Combined with cost, this is why you don't see the latter in widespread use.

The topic is important enough to some that millions of dollars are spent in research efforts. For an example, see http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003gun/heim.pdf




You first, Al.
Click to expand...



Asa, you're hard to argue with because your ability to decipher internet gossip impedes your ability to THINK!

Just because "millions of dollars are being spent" on something DOES NOT MAKE IT TENABLE!!!


THIS,,,, is how you make your argument, your quote...... " Ceramic barrels do, but there are longevity issues. Combined with cost, this is why you don't see the latter in widespread use. "


Well DUHHHH!!

Out here in the Real World this translates to "doesn't work"..... as in "isn't viable".........

al
 
BTW Asa, I forgot to approach your "ion nitriding" thing. Now, you say "just because you're a benchrester" blahh blahh blahhh......

This is an ACCURACY board........ for a thing to "work" it must produce a USABLE gain, in this case the gain must include ACCURACY for it to be said to "work.". You can coat a battle rifle bore with all sorts of crud in the interest of making it last longer, the barrel will continue to lay down suppressive fire for twice as long...... but in regards to ACCURATE life there's no gain. You've exhibited this propensity many times before, dragging irrelevant trivia into the mix. The fact that you can line a cannon bore with any of a dozen things and it "works to prolong barrel life" just isn't relevant to the sport of accurate shooting. If you can show me ANY instance of a coated or alternative material barrel producing long term accuracy gains, bring it on! NOT ONLY will you have the dubious pleasure of seeing me eat my crow with gusto, you'll see people lining up to BUY your wonderful product.


Results trump speculative BS every time........."You can't Argue With Results."

Good luck in your quest, we've gone this road before you and me... :) .... I've put up the money before, my hunnerd dollar "ceramic barrels" bet still stands......now you need to find some RESULTS!


Please don't make me start listing the things we spend "millions of dollars on" not working, and PLEASE don't get me STARTED on the stuff in the pipeline!!!


LOL


al
 
It's interesting

when one realizes those Black Birds are SO OLD they were Moth Balled at one time. Wonder what the modern version looks like? They were in service when I was, back in the 60's. I never saw one but have been up close and personal to a U2.
 
alinwa said:
BTW Asa, I forgot to approach your "ion nitriding" thing. Now, you say "just because you're a benchrester" blahh blahh blahhh......

This is an ACCURACY board........ for a thing to "work" it must produce a USABLE gain, in this case the gain must include ACCURACY for it to be said to "work.".
Click to expand...
Okay, accuracy...
  • When an 88mm AA gun throws a 22lb steel shot at nearly 3000 FPS to punch holes through 4" of armor at ranges of 2000 yards or more - that's accuracy (ion nitrided bore).
  • When an M1 tank can throw a 22 lb sabot round at over 5000 FPS, and expect an 80+% chance of hitting a tank sized target at 4000 yards - when both are moving cross country at up to 40 MPH - that's accuracy. (Chrome lined bore.)
  • When 9x 16" guns on a battleship can drop shells on a bus sized area at over 15 miles - that's accuracy. (Chrome lined bore.)
Oh yeah - all of the above also assume used (fired, but not worn out) barrels. In all three cases, the linings don't initially promote accuracy. They do prevent excessive wear, which shortens the effective service life of said barrel. Extended service life while maintaining accuracy has merits of its own.

While this is a BR board, this post is in the "Gunsmiths Corner", and originally started by discussing use of titanium as a barrel material. There's a LOT of general knowledge involved in this topic, and it isn't benchrest specific at all.

Take off the BR blinders, Al - because there's more to accuracy than YOU know.
 
Pete Wass said:
I never saw one but have been up close and personal to a U2.
Click to expand...
Lots of -71 in museums now, Pete.
  • The Museum of Flight in Seattle, WA has an A-12 (predecessor of the -71). Actually, it's the last M-21 (mother plane for the D-21 spy drone). Neat concept - launch a Mach 3+ spy drone from a Mach 2.5+ plane. Aerodynamics (separation dynamics between drone and mothership) killed the other plane - and the M/D-21 concept. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_D-21/M-21 for more on this program.
  • Evergreen Aviation Museum in McMinnville, OR has a -71 where the canopies are open. Access ladders allow tourists to take a look inside.
Both planes are indoors - a necessity in the Pacific Northwest.

EDITED TO ADD - Just noted you're in Maine. Closest Blackbird to you appears to be the A-12 at the USS Intrepid Museum in New York.
 
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