Barrel internals, wht do you see?

C

Centerfire

Member
Well I did it, I bought a Hawkeye bore scope. And now I need a little help.
Looking at barrel internals 1/4" at a time is really different.
I have several 6mm barrels which when put away did not show blue on a patch when cleaned with Butches bore shine. Therefore I was convinced I did not need a scope. But through the years I thought I should check. So after saving for a while and catching a sale I bought my new scope.

I checked a new unfired Bartlein and unfired Hart barrel to see what I should recognize as Good. But looking at a couple of used Harts, and a Kreiger I see what many of the more enlightened have stated as 4"-6" of carbon streaks and copper. These areas did not clean up with my usual regime of cleaning even with using JB after a agg.

What I see and would like confirmation of is what is causing the what looks like little pin head pits in the barrel. Not everywhere but enough that I can see them and cannot remove them with JB or USP.

Another concern was the carbon streaks. These were untouched by Sea Foam.
Can't find the GM tec cleaner but not sure it would help.
I just resorted to using USP and Butches till they were removed.

Comment welcome! :)
Centerfire
 
Welcome to the 21st century. My first experience with a new borescope was much the same. Continued use has taught me what actually cleans my barrels and what does not. I also leaned that no matter what the chemical used-- not only can false copper traces appear on your patches, but false "all clean now" lack of trace can happen if you do not brush and/or apply elbow grease and JB. There are some interesting and instructional posts in the archives of the Gunsmithing section of this website.


As some folks have noted in other posts, claims for miracle cleaning through the use of unobtainium are also of no particular use, either. The main difference is that you can't prove or disprove them for yourself using the borescope.
 
Centerfire said:
Well I did it, I bought a Hawkeye bore scope. And now I need a little help.
Looking at barrel internals 1/4" at a time is really different.
I have several 6mm barrels which when put away did not show blue on a patch when cleaned with Butches bore shine. Therefore I was convinced I did not need a scope. But through the years I thought I should check. So after saving for a while and catching a sale I bought my new scope.

I checked a new unfired Bartlein and unfired Hart barrel to see what I should recognize as Good. But looking at a couple of used Harts, and a Kreiger I see what many of the more enlightened have stated as 4"-6" of carbon streaks and copper. These areas did not clean up with my usual regime of cleaning even with using JB after a agg.

What I see and would like confirmation of is what is causing the what looks like little pin head pits in the barrel. Not everywhere but enough that I can see them and cannot remove them with JB or USP.

Another concern was the carbon streaks. These were untouched by Sea Foam.
Can't find the GM tec cleaner but not sure it would help.
I just resorted to using USP and Butches till they were removed.

Comment welcome! :)
Centerfire
Click to expand...

I have been told that the tiny pitts are caused from un-burned powder igniting there but am not sure. I have seen in some barrels after they have been shot a bit there will be dark pitts of varying sizes in differing locations. I believe them to be places where inclusions of crud or carbon are inpregnated in the metal and find their way to the surface as the fire is applied to them.

My reason for thinking this is a friend bought a branny new "Custom" action made of Stainless Steel. After using it a few times he noticed a score in the surface where the extraction cam resides. The scratch was caused by a piece of black material coming out of the action and then dragged along the cam surface. One could clearly see the pit the carbon came out of.

I once had a barrel that looked like what I reffer to as a "Moonscape" but the thing shot wonderfully, so much so that I shot it out instead of sending it back to the maker. It just needed to be cleaned harder is all.
 
Ya might try some KG2

Centerfire said:
Well I did it, I bought a Hawkeye bore scope. And now I need a little help.
Looking at barrel internals 1/4" at a time is really different.
I have several 6mm barrels which when put away did not show blue on a patch when cleaned with Butches bore shine. Therefore I was convinced I did not need a scope. But through the years I thought I should check. So after saving for a while and catching a sale I bought my new scope.

I checked a new unfired Bartlein and unfired Hart barrel to see what I should recognize as Good. But looking at a couple of used Harts, and a Kreiger I see what many of the more enlightened have stated as 4"-6" of carbon streaks and copper. These areas did not clean up with my usual regime of cleaning even with using JB after a agg.

What I see and would like confirmation of is what is causing the what looks like little pin head pits in the barrel. Not everywhere but enough that I can see them and cannot remove them with JB or USP.

Another concern was the carbon streaks. These were untouched by Sea Foam.
Can't find the GM tec cleaner but not sure it would help.
I just resorted to using USP and Butches till they were removed.

Comment welcome! :)
Centerfire
Click to expand...

A long time ago this subject came up on here and the maker of KG2 offered up the sale of his products here. I finally bought some when I happened to see it on the shelf of what as I remember as being Cabela's. I too had a barrel with carbon streaks that seemed to defy anything I had tried. I applied some of the KG2 to a brass brush and gave it 10 or 12 strokes. I then patched the barrel out and The carbon were gone! I have used it some since for regular cleaning in the same way. Truthfully I think the brush may be the bigger part of the combination.
 
I dont have a bore scope yet but like the fellas above i think i get my barrels pretty clean. Maybe not? Anyway with the cleaning methods i use my barrels always seem to shoot pretty good. I guess i wonder how clean a barrel really needs to be to perform??? maybe there is such a thing as over cleaning a barrel. I personally wouldn't know! Lee
 
It's only what you know that can screw you mind, not what you don't know.

It's what you know & what you don't know can bugger your performance.
 
Lee, ask Jim about his "clean" barrel that Dave Coot's bought the mineral rights to at StL a few weeks ago.

Mark
 
Everyone has their own way of cleaning. I don't think you can over clean a barrel.
I use I
I think the pits are caused by sulfur Osso and oil for my cleaning along with butches. I oil the bore and use a stiff iosso brush{the blue ones}
I flush out the iosso with a good spray cleaner. Then some butches. Check it with the scope. If i see carbon i use butches and a good bronze brush, scrub several times and scope again. Patch out with butches a few dry ones and scope again. Remember the article on cleaning {the one that talked about fouling being in layers} I think the pits are coming from the sulfur in the barrel steel Migrating from the ammonia in the solvents Clyde Hart talked about that a long time ago. .
 
markharp said:
Lee, ask Jim about his "clean" barrel that Dave Coot's bought the mineral rights to at StL a few weeks ago.

Mark
Click to expand...

WHATEVER!!!! It was still shooting wasn't it..

PS.. Bore scopes are the DEVIL !!
 
I heard all about it. Seems dave will be shooting on proceeds from that barrel for at least 2 seasons. Lee
 
Way back when I first started shooting Benchrest, I was all excited about bore scopes, cleaning, etc.

Got over it soon enough. ...........jackie
 
I'll opine that the pits are....... pits.

They're known as 'inclusions' in the steel industry. Most often impurities that are eroded (burned out) by heat.

al
 
Don't use that bore scope yourself. Loan it to your fellow competitors. They'll be so upset with what they see they'll forget how to shoot. Lots of different ways to compete.
 
A borescope is just another tool to use in maintaining your barrels in good shooting condition. After you use it for a while you will find its utility and will be pleased you have it. To do otherwise is to stick your head in the sand.

Bottom line, a borescope even used by an experienced user will not tell you if a barrel will shoot or not. It just shows some things that can impede accuracy and how well the cleaning regimen you are using is working.
 
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JerrySharrett said:
A borescope it just another tool to use in maintaining your barrels in good shooting condition. After you use it for a while you will find its utility and will be pleased you have it. To do otherwise is to stick your head in the sand.

Bottom line, a borescope even used by an experienced user will not tell you if a barrel will shoot or not. It just shows some things that can impede accuracy and how well the cleaning regimen you are using is working.
Click to expand...

X2, me.
 
skeetlee said:
I dont have a bore scope yet but like the fellas above i think i get my barrels pretty clean. Maybe not? Anyway with the cleaning methods i use my barrels always seem to shoot pretty good. I guess i wonder how clean a barrel really needs to be to perform??? maybe there is such a thing as over cleaning a barrel. I personally wouldn't know! Lee
Click to expand...

I tend to agree but the unknown is how much is too much carbon build up and it do build up just ahead of the chamber if it isn't removed. From my experience, none of the liquids will remove it. From what I have seen, one needs to use a cleaner with abrasive material in it like Iosso, JB or the KG2.
 
I have a great story about cleaning and bore scopes, but I won't tell it again.

Take your barrel. Clean it untill there is absolutly nothing in there but steel. Then, go to the range with your borescope, and fire five rounds. Then, clean it in your normal manner.

It will look exactly like it did before you went through the radical cleaning regiment. I know this, because I have done it.

We do not shoot aggregates with squeaky clean barrels. We shoot aggregates with fouled barrels. ............jackie
 
Jackie, I do agree . Few if any record shots are fired from that spotless barrel. We
shoot fowlers first. If your Load barrel combo and cleaning process is working, by all
means lay the borescope aside. In some cases though, the cleaning process is not
keeping up with the problems. Not because the barrel is being neglected, simply not
working. Why some guys have powder fowling and others don't when using the same
sauce is beyond me, but I have seen it often. Have also seen good shooters bow
cleaning rods like a fishing pole. You can still do that even with a good guide. Though
your buddy might not notice that, your bore scope will. Do we need a spotless barrel,
nope, I don't think so. Just keeping at a minimum works
 
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