Anyone who says they can tell a difference when charges vary a tenth of a grain.
- Thread starter Louis.J
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John Kielly
Shari's fan club
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
Boyd Allen
Active member
Perhaps with the rifles that he has experience with, at the distances that he generally shoots, and the expectations that he has for overall performance, he may be exactly right, but all of the accomplished long range benchrest shooters that I have read and corresponded with would disagree, at least as far as variations of weight within the loads used at a particular match. On the other hand, if he is talking about the weight of a load that has been selected to load with, he might be right. The width of the tune window might be wide enough to accommodate that. This could be apples and oranges.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
If this is true,the person is dreaming, then how come folks add and subtract clicks to and from their thrown or weighed loads? Just think about it for a minute. If tenths made no difference then why does, say 27.8 work smetimes and 27.5 other times. Everything one does, in terms of loading ammo counts, the difference is some barrels will forgive more than others. if tenths made no difference then we could simply use only even grains or half grains.
Perhaps PPC's are a lot more forgiving than other calibers, I don't know, I have never used one but I have seen, time after time that a tenth difference in the rifles I shoot can be seen on paper, just as as little as .001" in seating depth can be seen, .003" for sure will make a a tiny group grow.
I'm sure dude "on another board" is perfectly happy with his opinion.
The question is, are you?
I have a friend who'll flat out argue that "mayonnaise is exactly the same as Miracle Whip, probably comes from the same vat." I know people who can't tell the difference between Kool Whip and whipped cream......
The question is, can you?
All this aside, most people CAN'T tell the difference between tenths of a grain.
But that's not something I'd be proud of!
al
The question is, are you?
I have a friend who'll flat out argue that "mayonnaise is exactly the same as Miracle Whip, probably comes from the same vat." I know people who can't tell the difference between Kool Whip and whipped cream......
The question is, can you?
All this aside, most people CAN'T tell the difference between tenths of a grain.
But that's not something I'd be proud of!
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
A related question: How wide are your typical nodes, in terms of charge weight? I am not talking about variation within a set of loads, but if you have exactly weighed charges, what is the width of the range of charges that will perform well in a given condition?
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Yes, but what I am asking about is something different. If you are loading with your Chargemaster and scale, all on the same day, with the same temp and humidity, and you loaded up sets of cartridges that were in .1 gr intervals, how much difference in weight would there be from where a load started to shoot, to the last one before it stopped shooting? Picking a number, working up in weight, if a load comes in to excellent accuracy at 49 grains, how far up would you expect to be able to go before it went out of tune? I am asking about node width.
OK - let's test it
I'll save up some money and go anywhere Southwest flies. We'll fix up some 6PPC cases so they all look alike and then load up some weighed charges and some deliberately 2 tenths spread. I'll pass 'em out so you won't know which it is. After shooting 15 groups with the .2 spread and 5 groups with the exact weight - you pick which ones that had the exact weight. If, for some reason, you can't pick the weighed groups we'll do it again with 3 tenths variance.
I'll save up some money and go anywhere Southwest flies. We'll fix up some 6PPC cases so they all look alike and then load up some weighed charges and some deliberately 2 tenths spread. I'll pass 'em out so you won't know which it is. After shooting 15 groups with the .2 spread and 5 groups with the exact weight - you pick which ones that had the exact weight. If, for some reason, you can't pick the weighed groups we'll do it again with 3 tenths variance.
Boyd Allen
Active member
It is an honest question. I am not really asking about how much weights can vary within a group, without losing accuracy. I want to know if we have groups of perfectly assembled ammo, that are each assembled with slightly different charge weights. What is the extreme spread of charge weights that will produce equally small groups. I don't require a big scientific study. I am just looking for estimates based on experience. For instance if peak accuracy started at 28.3 and you shot your next group using 28.4 and so on, how far would you expect to go before accuracy started to fall off.? .2? .3? .4? How wide is your typical node? Obviously, exceptionally good conditions would be required to make this sort of evaluation. I think that I tend to stop when I see a satisfyingly small group. After all, I have what I was looking for. What I probably should do is keep on going up, see where the upper limit is, and load in the middle, reducing the chance of falling off the edge. I have also heard that for a given rifle and set of components that there is more than one node. For me, this raises the question as to whether they are of equal width.
G
Geary Koglin
Guest
Oops...Darn
Those are words I use when a shot goes out. What caused it to go out would be a better question. So I'll agree with Lawrence, Wilbur, and Francis and add my own 2 cents worth. Most of the really good shooters would not worry if the load was .1 grain off (of a load that was working) as much as what did the tail on the 4th flag do. I really enjoy this game and some day I will learn it better. I know most of my problems with it are my own doing and not the fault of the equipment.
Geary Koglin
Grand Blanc, MI
Those are words I use when a shot goes out. What caused it to go out would be a better question. So I'll agree with Lawrence, Wilbur, and Francis and add my own 2 cents worth. Most of the really good shooters would not worry if the load was .1 grain off (of a load that was working) as much as what did the tail on the 4th flag do. I really enjoy this game and some day I will learn it better. I know most of my problems with it are my own doing and not the fault of the equipment.
Geary Koglin
Grand Blanc, MI
Boyd Allen
Active member
Fellows,
What I did was hijack a thread, and ask a related question. The one that started the thread, and the one that I asked are not the same, and if no one knows the answer, that is OK because I don't either. I just thought that there was a chance that someone might have looked into this. From his tunnel experience, with typical 10.5# 6PPCs, Gene Beggs has concluded that tuning nodes are about 1.2 gr. apart (if I remember correctly). I have played around with this a little bit, and have seen where a load that I was testing went from paper between holes to hole cutting hole with a change of approximately half of that, on a day with excellent conditions. I was testing a new powder. Anyway, I guess that the next time that I am lucky enough to get one of those perfect days, I will have to remember to do a small test. In his discussions of the advantages of using a tuner, Gene Buckys has said that the advantage of a tuner is that it broadens nodes, and that he sets his in the middle of one. This got me to thinking about how wide they might have been without a tuner, and how much wider they might be with. I think that we are all familiar with changing loads throughout the day to keep in tune as the temperature changes. If we have a load that is very touchy this way, it makes this more difficult. I was just trying to see if anyone had put any number on this. Perhaps not.
Boyd
What I did was hijack a thread, and ask a related question. The one that started the thread, and the one that I asked are not the same, and if no one knows the answer, that is OK because I don't either. I just thought that there was a chance that someone might have looked into this. From his tunnel experience, with typical 10.5# 6PPCs, Gene Beggs has concluded that tuning nodes are about 1.2 gr. apart (if I remember correctly). I have played around with this a little bit, and have seen where a load that I was testing went from paper between holes to hole cutting hole with a change of approximately half of that, on a day with excellent conditions. I was testing a new powder. Anyway, I guess that the next time that I am lucky enough to get one of those perfect days, I will have to remember to do a small test. In his discussions of the advantages of using a tuner, Gene Buckys has said that the advantage of a tuner is that it broadens nodes, and that he sets his in the middle of one. This got me to thinking about how wide they might have been without a tuner, and how much wider they might be with. I think that we are all familiar with changing loads throughout the day to keep in tune as the temperature changes. If we have a load that is very touchy this way, it makes this more difficult. I was just trying to see if anyone had put any number on this. Perhaps not.
Boyd
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
I'm not proficient with that -- can you share comments about:
1. Which way do you go with the load (up or down) as the temp changes (up or down)?
2. Is that direction consistent from day to day?
M
mks
Guest
In response to the original question, my old 30BR on average changed elevation on target at 100 yards by about 0.1" per grain of 4198. So a 0.1 grain difference in powder would produce a change in elevation of 0.01". A pretty small amount, but with enough shots in each group, one could statistically confirm this difference. But why waste bullets on a test like this? It's like, we already know that Hellmans is better than Miracle Whip, even if some don't believe it.
Boyd, yours is the more interesting question.
Cheers,
Keith
gabe ledesma
Member
Anyone who says they can tell a difference when charges vary a tenth of a grain are dreaming.
I dont know what kind of equipment this competitor is using, is he a Benchrest shooter? . Personally as a Benchrest shooter when i get ready to find a load for my new barrel i take a day of vac off to do some loading. I try and find a day that is calm as can be and then head on out to the range. I dont have an underground tunnel like some of you do
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Boyd Allen
Active member
BAT @ 27.5 = .1906
BAT @ 28.5 = .1718
Nesika @ 27.5 = .1512
Nesika @ 28.5 = .2694
"grand" for BAT = .1912
"grand" for Nesika = .2103
Avg of above = .2008
BAT @ 28.5 = .1718
Nesika @ 27.5 = .1512
Nesika @ 28.5 = .2694
"grand" for BAT = .1912
"grand" for Nesika = .2103
Avg of above = .2008
I will say this....
If you have a rifle that you can tell the difference in a tenth of a grain by the group and it's repeatable, you have one of two issues:
1. POS barrel
2. POS gun
Period.
Whether to go up or go down.....for me...mostly depends on what powder I'm using. There are times I start out hot in the morning and start going down during the day to keep in tune...then jump back up to where I started in the morning in one big move to catch the next node coming down (especially in a right to left wind). Of course....all my boltfaces are pitted.
Another pattern of interest: How a losing gun seems to have a lot of bad barrels but a winning gun seems to have a higher percentage of good/great barrels. But the two never seem to take place with the same gun....unless work is done to it.
Hovis
If you have a rifle that you can tell the difference in a tenth of a grain by the group and it's repeatable, you have one of two issues:
1. POS barrel
2. POS gun
Period.
Whether to go up or go down.....for me...mostly depends on what powder I'm using. There are times I start out hot in the morning and start going down during the day to keep in tune...then jump back up to where I started in the morning in one big move to catch the next node coming down (especially in a right to left wind). Of course....all my boltfaces are pitted.
Another pattern of interest: How a losing gun seems to have a lot of bad barrels but a winning gun seems to have a higher percentage of good/great barrels. But the two never seem to take place with the same gun....unless work is done to it.
Hovis
Reply to No. 17
Here is a paragraph from Gene Begg's excellent treatise on temperature and density ...
If you tune with the powder charge, decrease velocity 30 fps for each five degree increase in temperature and vice versa. With most powders, N133 being the most common, three-tenths grain equals 30 fps. With most Culver type measures, one full number equals .6 grains. For example, if your favorite load is 54 clicks, and your rifle is perfectly in tune for the first match of the day when temp is 60 degrees, you will decrease the load to 53.5 clicks when temp reaches 65 degrees, 53 clicks at 70 degrees and so on.
Here is a paragraph from Gene Begg's excellent treatise on temperature and density ...
If you tune with the powder charge, decrease velocity 30 fps for each five degree increase in temperature and vice versa. With most powders, N133 being the most common, three-tenths grain equals 30 fps. With most Culver type measures, one full number equals .6 grains. For example, if your favorite load is 54 clicks, and your rifle is perfectly in tune for the first match of the day when temp is 60 degrees, you will decrease the load to 53.5 clicks when temp reaches 65 degrees, 53 clicks at 70 degrees and so on.