answer me this

Jim

I don't have a koch chart in front of me, but I think your calculation is about right. Watch your local news and the Baro will be in the 28-29 range, but that is corrected to sea level. At the house, right now, my actual Baro is 23.18 but I'm at 6850 ft altitude.
That lack of air also contributes to higher velocities, less drop, and less drift than at sea level........or anywhere lower for that matter. There just ain't no air up here!

I once heard a "sea level" shooter, shooting for the first time at Raton, exclame "I normally hold a full bullet for these conditions, but that's way too much here".
I know I'd be in for a hell of a learning curve if I was to shoot a match at 1000 ft altitude.
I'd like to get a Kestrel 4000 just to monitor how the DA and the Temp corellate to the correct tuner changes, but that unit is just a bit out of my budget right now. I'm sure it would be 2 straight lines. A kosh chart will do, but it's a bit of a hassel.
By the way,
80% RH at 60 degrees
40% RH at 80 degrees, and
20% RH at 100 degrees amounts to nearly identical water vapor per lb. of air!
Keep that thermometer handy!
Bryan
 
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Tony Has It Right

Amagine that. The best Benchrest Shooter in the World has it right.:rolleyes:

But, do keep in mind, he did not say WHAT he did, just that if the target tells him something, he does it.

And, while you are thinking about it, keep in mind that there are a couple of shooters who are very close to Tony, and probably shoot the exact same set-up, but shot no where near as well as he did.

Down here in Texas, (Houston), we get huge swings in the humidity. Sometimes, you can just stand in place and melt. Other times, it is so nice you wonder why everybody doesn't live here.

This "arguement" concerning humidity, presented by the originol poster, has been going on for years. Shooters have been banging their heads against the wall for decades trying to figure out why a Rifle can be shooting at a Championship level at one moment, only to be locked into .300 of verticle a couple hours later.

Don't ask the people who make the powder. They don't have a clue what we are doing. How do we know this?/ Just read their literature and the big glossy adds in the magazines.

I have 52 pounds of 81167 8208. I think I will chamber up a new Bartlien and see just what I can do with this powder, starting from scratch. No pre-concieved notions about what others have done, just start at square one and see if I can make the stuff shoot at a level that is competitive.

Like a lot of shooters, I get tired of 133 being so finicky. At the Nationals, I spent three days prior getting my Rifles shooting pretty darned good. Then, Sunday, the weather changed completely and I never really got anything working. It is pretty obvious when you are shooting "mid two" aggs, and the leaders are shooting at a "mid teen" level, and better, your stuff ain't cutting it.

But then, I was probably fooling myself. The set-up wasn't that good in the first place. Or, at least, not good enough to hang with that crowd.........jackie
 
Muddy waters

If V133 is grossly effected by barometric pressure, humidity, density altitude, or an environmental condition in the barrel, how come H322, Benchmark, various 8208's and 10X are not as effected?? I'm feeling the 6PPC is not the correct volume for V133.

Oh, I know many winners shoot V133 and win with it, but if all those top shooters had access to the "other" powders that sometimes appear in the winning spot, would the "other" powder not dominate?

For example, at the 2009 NBRSA Nationals of the 80 top 20's, 20 did not shoot V133. At the 2009 IBS, 6 of the top 40 did not shoot V133. The users of "other" powders has dropped off considerably in the last 3-6 years because it is getting gone fast.
 
JerrySharrett said:
If V133 is grossly effected by barometric pressure, humidity, density altitude, or an environmental condition in the barrel, how come H322, Benchmark, various 8208's and 10X are not as effected?? I'm feeling the 6PPC is not the correct volume for V133.
Click to expand...

Actually Jerry, in my extensive testing of powders used in the 6ppc, N133 was less temperamental when conditions changed than H322, RL10x, and Benchmark. I have never been "blessed" enough to use any 8208 or T so I can't confirm or deny anything about them. Of the powders I have used, all of them had their own personalities and quirks but N133 kept it's nodes wider and more easily than the others by a fair margin.

To all,
Since these powders I've tried are "current" and obtainable by the common man, I would think that if they were better than N133, you WOULD see more people using them. But you don't. Why? Perhaps there are fellows out there that have got it figured out or maybe there are guys out there that commune with the powder gods in ritualistic worship and they have told these men the secrets of N133 and how to use it. I would have to bet on the former.
I think there is a possibility that there are competitors who don't put stock in voodoo humidity theories, or sudden mystic curses of inaccuracy and simply look to common sense and a few scientific principles to correct any problems that might come along. These folks just get themselves a thermometer, a chronograph, a notebook, and go shoot until they figure out what they need to do.

Now, there are different levels of these "common sense" guys. Of the four things mentioned above that can help a guy figure out the demons, some guys might only use a couple. Tony has stated that he just shoots his way out of the problem without paying attention to humidity or temp (thanks Jim E. for the post). After several decades and a million bullets, he has found out what he's got to do. Does that make his method the ultimate? Does that make him a thoroughly well versed scientist of ballistic principles? Does it have to? I don't think so. You don't have to run 10 step equations to prove you can shoot. All that matters is what the score says at the end of the day to prove you can shoot. But there are different ways to go about it.

A chronograph, a notebook, a thermometer, and some shooting time used in combination can shorten the learning curve of what we need to learn when our guns go out of tune for the guy who doesn't have a million bullets to spare. And we can drop that "mystical halo" that some seem to hold for the 6ppc while we're at it. The 6ppc uses the SAME FOUR COMPONENTS every other cartridge uses. It follows the physical laws of this planet just like every other cartridge and can therefore be figured out too.

If you let the ppc scare you into believing in superstitions and apparitions, you will cuss everything about it from the powders that make it shoot to the amount of water droplets in the air. You will buy a tuner yet still load ammo at the range. You will go hoard every kernel of powder from your favorite lot and cry when it runs out. You will look in vain for super bullets. You will try 10 different brands of barrels and use five different twist rates looking for that one "hummer" barrel that will automatically launch you into 1st place at the Super SHoot. You will literally drive yourself nuts. But you will rarely focus on the one thing that really matters...........how well you can read conditions!

Think about it for a second. Do you really think your fancy humidity gauge is going to save you if you started your group in the wrong condition?

Do you think since now you're running a gain twist barrel that you can ignore the fact that your third flag just did a 180 degree spin just as you touched off the shot?

Is that magical lot of powder gonna shoot through that tail wind that's been giving you vertical all day?

Is that $2200 March going to erase all the boiling mirage you seem to be impatiently shooting through?


Do you see what I'm getting at? Why keep perpetuating these myths and superstitions? Why not try to learn and understand scientific facts instead? At least then we will have an answer that can be defended or disproved instead of just saying, "that's WHAT Tony does?" Because frankly, I am more interested in WHY Tony does it.
 
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I think the above post is Right On

I know when I go to the range to test, as the temp goes up, so does the wind and usually from several directions making forming a group somewhat difficult. One is extremely fortunate to be able to find a stable condition to tell them much, if anything. Based on that, How would one know what the rifle is telling them? I don't seem to have any rifles that are condition proof.
 
For every action there is a reaction.

Absolute humidity changes as air pressure changes and varies with temperature.

Ken
 
Pete Wass said:
I know when I go to the range to test, as the temp goes up, so does the wind and usually from several directions making forming a group somewhat difficult. One is extremely fortunate to be able to find a stable condition to tell them much, if anything. Based on that, How would one know what the rifle is telling them? I don't seem to have any rifles that are condition proof.
Click to expand...

I agree Pete. I wish I could find a condition proof rifle too!
It's so easy to blame this or that when the gun aint shooting but I know most of the time the problems will go away when the shooter starts paying attention to those funny looking lawn ornaments downrange.;)
 
HovisKM said:
Sounds to me like you have it all figured out....now it's time to Show us....

Hovis
Click to expand...

No, I don't have it all figured out Hovis. THere's lots of things I can't understand. Like why would someone say the above? It just seems out of place............:confused:
 
jackie schmidt said:
Refresh my memory. What is you real name??..........jackie
Click to expand...

Jackie,

I tried to PM you the answer and it said your inbox was full. Clear it and then PM me if you want. Or you can wait a few days until the NBRSA newsletter comes out and then look to see if Jack got the match report in there for the July match at the Whittington Center. If he did, I will be in the #2 spot in the Two Gun and #1 spot in the LV grand. Or you can look in last months issue if you haven't used it for lining in the bird cage yet. Springville (CUBR) 2nd place in the Three Gun.
 
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You might find something that starts on page 130 of Mike Ratigan's book interesting. It speaks directly to this issue. I can't take the credit for the reference. Gene Beggs gave it to me.
 
goodgrouper said:
Jackie,

I tried to PM you the answer and it said your inbox was full. Clear it and then PM me if you want. Or you can wait a few days until the NBRSA newsletter comes out and then look to see if Jack got the match report in there for the July match at the Whittington Center. If he did, I will be in the #2 spot in the Two Gun and #1 spot in the LV grand. Or you can look in last months issue if you haven't used it for lining in the bird cage yet. Springville (CUBR) 2nd place in the Three Gun.
Click to expand...
goodgrooper, why so secret? if i had it all figured out i'd be proud to tell the world who i was and how i did it.
 
Indeed

goodgrouper said:
I agree Pete. I wish I could find a condition proof rifle too!
It's so easy to blame this or that when the gun aint shooting but I know most of the time the problems will go away when the shooter starts paying attention to those funny looking lawn ornaments downrange.;)
Click to expand...


Once one has them shootin, the results of reading those funny things improves too. The hard thing if one doesn't know if it's shootin is if one's read ain't good or the gun ain's shootin; compound complications.
 
Boyd Allen said:
You might find something that starts on page 130 of Mike Ratigan's book interesting. It speaks directly to this issue. I can't take the credit for the reference. Gene Beggs gave it to me.
Click to expand...

Can you sum it up here? My copy is over at a friend's house.
 
pwolfppc said:
goodgrooper, why so secret? if i had it all figured out i'd be proud to tell the world who i was and how i did it.
Click to expand...

Number one, I value security more than fame. And number two, I wasn't the one who figured it out. Jerry Shaeffer laid out how to plot powders/temperatures with a chronograph a long time ago. His writings were in Precision Shooting and then got compiled in the Benchrest SHooting Primer. His tests were mostly with H322 but his method can be run with any powder. I ran it with several lots of N133 while shooting for group in big temperature swings and then repeated the tests with many of the other "current powders" and N133 was the most consistent, the easiest to keep in tune (especially above 60 degrees), the most accurate in "agging", and the most predictable in it's velocity gains. Obviously, this was a big body of work and it took many months to repeat the tests to the point of getting good, hard data to evaluate. But when the stats were compiled, it was no surprise why 80% or higher of competitors are using N133 all across the country.

These tests were performed right next to a river where humidity is high until the wind kicks up and blows it down the canyon in the afternoon and I never saw any change whatsoever from the humidity in either loading or shooting. What changes did occur were traceable to the temperature and I know this because of the plotting of temps I could reproduce the desired results from day to day regardless what humidity. The target nor the chronograph ever noticed the water vapor in the air.
 
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That agging capability is affected by high or low humidity, I have no clue.
I can say that moisture in powder does have an affect. For those that
measure powder, it may swell the kernels and less powder is charged
at a given setting , or Maybe the moisture content dampens the fire in the boiler, for those that weigh. I cannot load 20 shells , shoot 10 on a dry day
and 10 in the rain and find a difference. I can however find a difference
in powder that has been intensionally dampened. This I did a few years
ago. Powder placed outside in the open air over night, in july and powder
put in a refridgerator shows a major difference in velocity. Admittedly,this is
an extreme that few will see in normal loading. The powder was 133
lot 820-04. The load was 29 grains and 10 loads of each were placed
in glass vials. They were all fired from the same 10 cases. The powder
left under the stars lost 160 fps avg as compared to the dry. The
moisture loaded powder did not seem to bulk higher in the case than
the dry. This was a very limited experiment, and no doub't is flawed.
It does show that some effect is possible. Understand that this has only
to do with moisture content in powder and not Relative Humidity.
That some leave there measures open all day or store powder with
loose lids in higher humidity, who is to say. Everyone may not be affected in the same way
 
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