Another new guy needs a hand

D

DMorgan

Guest
I am intersted in Benchrest and I have been hanging about at a range trying to figure out what an entry level rig for me should be. Most of the rigs I have watched would be able to shoot better than I can. The folks are real nice and I have been told to buy a 'winner'. I hate shopping around. That happens to us old guys.

I know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to picking a rifle to start out with. I have researched actions, stocks, barrels. I have a feel for what is quality and what is popular, or both. But I still don't feel confident in picking one out of the herd.

This might not be kosher/politic, but....would it be out of line to ask you experienced guys/gals which of the 6mm PPC rifles currently in the forum classifieds would be the better buy for a beginner? I am looking to spend from $1400. up to $2000. or so. Then again, I don't want to spend more on a rifle than my meager abilities can wring out of it. At the same time I want to get it right the first time. Very conflicted here.

It gets a little fuzzy when reading the ads. Two barrels, one barrel/ round count/ who smithed it/ LV or HV/ rings and bases/ no rings/ tight neck/ other neck/ heck, even no neck. That was a joke...

Thanks for any advice and tolerating a old rookie's plea for help.
Dave
 
DMorgan Welcome to the forum and the world of BR.

I'm a newbe myself. Just bought a Stiller drop port and I like the action.
Shot in one match and they handed me back my butt. I'll try again Sunday.

Only advice I can give is some heard here. Always consider the barrel as something to be replaced on a used rig. It might not need to be but use that frame of mind going into the purchase and you'll never be disappointed.
 
Dave, I see you are in California. Don't know where Merced is, but any particular range you are close to, and plan to shot at? Often it is a good idea to attend a BR shoot in your area and get to know some of the guys there. Sometimes those guys know of good shooting guns available in your area and that can increase your chances of getting a good gun. They can also be a big help with getting a new guy going in the right direction.

Rick Graham
 
Come to Visalia

DMorgan
Visalia is shooting an LV/HV on Feb. 21 and 22 come and hang out. I am new to BR well 3 years but that is still pretty new to BR, I also shoot Sacramento (Folsom Shooting Club) The people are great! Look me up if you come I will be the only Marty there > probably at the bottom of the LIST! I have a new Viper Drop Port you can check out > shot it at Arizona two weeks ago > love it! I will have my spare gun there and you are more than welcome to shoot it. I shot a good agg with it last week while waiting for new Viper > 10 days. Best way to learn is to come to a shoot and chat > we love to chat about guns and shooting and reloading!
Hope you can make it! The range is just north of Visalia.

Marty

:p
 
DMorgan said:
I am intersted in Benchrest and I have been hanging about at a range trying to figure out what an entry level rig for me should be. Most of the rigs I have watched would be able to shoot better than I can. The folks are real nice and I have been told to buy a 'winner'. I hate shopping around. That happens to us old guys.

I know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to picking a rifle to start out with. I have researched actions, stocks, barrels. I have a feel for what is quality and what is popular, or both. But I still don't feel confident in picking one out of the herd.

This might not be kosher/politic, but....would it be out of line to ask you experienced guys/gals which of the 6mm PPC rifles currently in the forum classifieds would be the better buy for a beginner? I am looking to spend from $1400. up to $2000. or so. Then again, I don't want to spend more on a rifle than my meager abilities can wring out of it. At the same time I want to get it right the first time. Very conflicted here.

It gets a little fuzzy when reading the ads. Two barrels, one barrel/ round count/ who smithed it/ LV or HV/ rings and bases/ no rings/ tight neck/ other neck/ heck, even no neck. That was a joke...

Thanks for any advice and tolerating a old rookie's plea for help.
Dave
Click to expand...


Basically, in buying a used br rifle, just buy the action and stock and forget about the barrel. Plan on getting a new barrel asap. Unless you truly know and trust the seller, you can take whatever the shot count is supposed to be on the rifle and times it by about 2 or 3. So essentially, you are just picking an action and a stock because the barrel is probably toast. These two items also need to be checked out for function and wear, but they are far less suspect than the barrels. But it also helps to know how the action and stock are put together. All glue-ins are not equal and there could be a lurking problem with it that will drive you crazy trying to get it to shoot. So any prior history of the rifle that you can learn will help you determine if you're looking at buying a "problem rifle".

Scopes usually aren't included in rifle sales, but if it is, check it out too. Since scopes are the weakest link in the benchrest chain, they need particular attention. It might be beneficial to buy a new scope unless you can get history on the used one.

Last but not least, a used rifle bought from a local shooter is far less risky than buying from someone unknown in a far off land. That way, you are likely to see them again and they are forced into being a little more honest with you. At least, if they lied to you, you can track them down!;)
 
DMorgan,

It'd be easier if you picked a rifle or two out of the classifieds and then posted the question with a link. This will save a lot of time for all..... (except YOU of course :D )

LOL


Also, make sure to look at Shooters Corner, "The List"..... again, you see something you're interested in just clik and bring the link over to here and folks will critique the choice.


al
 
The used benchrest rifle market can be pretty faddy. What I'm talking about as "faddy" is take a look at the match reports and see what actions are being used. You'll find more of certain manufacturers actions being used than others. If you go with what is currently popular in the match reports, you'll wind up paying more for the rifle than what you may with an older make of custom action that is not as popular as it once was. That doesn't mean that the older make isn't any good, just that it's not the current hot must have item. You can look through Bob White's list on the shooter's corner and see lots of rifles built on custom actions. You'll see that he has a pretty good number of both current and not so current as to popularity and the pricing will match.

It's pretty hard to go wrong with any one of a number of current custom actions. However, there can be good buys on some of the older makes of actions. The first thing I'd check would be to see if the action is still being made. That's a plus, but not necessarily a drawback if the action company is out of business. Remington parts such as firing pins, springs, bolt shrouds can generally be adapted to most custom actions that are no longer made.

Second thing I'd look at would be the condition of the locking lug on the bolt and receiver. I'd pass on buying an action that has galled locking lugs even if the galling has been lapped out of it. If kept clean and greased, most generally you won't have a galling problem. Matches aren't held in the best of conditions so quite frequently especially in Texas and the SW you'll have some dirt blowing around during matches and it's possible to wind up with a galled action caused by the dirt and not keeping the action clean.

Third, I'd make sure that the rifle will shoot in the 10.5 pound sporter class and not a 13.5 pound HV rifle. A 10.5 pound sporter rifle will shoot in any NBRSA class. If you go with a HV class rifle, you are limited to the HV and Unlimited classes. The difference between a 10.5 pound sporter and a 10.5 pound LV rifle is that the LV class can be a .22. The SP class has to be chambered for a cartridge 6mm or larger. A 10.5 pound 6 PPC is the way to go for the most bang for your buck as it can be shot in the SP, LV, HV and Unlimited classes.

If you happen to get a good shooting barrel on the rifle, consider that a blessing. Barrels in benchrest rifles are expendable. I'd shoot it awhile and then consider having a new barrel installed on it depending upon how the old barrel shoots. Most generally a new barrel will run you about $500 to 600 installed. An old benchrest barrel may be the most accurate barrel a newcomer has ever shot, but it may not be competitive. New barrels will usually give the best accuracy. We've all heard stories of benchrest matches being won with barrels with 4000 or more rounds on them. That would certainly be the exception and not the rule.

Don't get caught up in the gadget race. It's better to have one good rifle and multiple barrels for that rifle than a host of good rifles with one barrel. It's certainly cheaper with one. As with rifles, the latest and greatest front rest, rear sandbag, loading press, priming tool, etc. isn't necessary to shoot and do well. If you ever get a chance to take a look at Jackie Schmidt's loading presses, you'll see what I mean:). Jackie uses 3 of the grubbiest looking RCBS Partner presses that you've ever seen and wins more than just about anyone in the Gulf Coast region. The fancy stuff is nice, but not necessary.

One of my best shooting rifles is a HV rifle built on a CPS action that was made in 1985 with the old style McMillan benchrest stock. It will still shoot with any custom action being made currently. Of course, the barrel that is on it now is not the same barrel that it had on it in '85. It has had numerous barrels since then.

Good luck on your decision. It's a good time to be looking for a used benchrest rifle as there are lots of good benchrest rifles being sold now days. It's a great sport with lots of good people in the game. I've certainly missed it this past year while we've been building our house and looking forward to shooting again this year.
 
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DMorgan,
Mike Bryant just posted about the most accurate and comprehensive reply you are likely to find. Heed his advice as he know of which he speaks and his work speaks for him.

Mike we have missed you at Luther. Hope to see you at the mixmaster this year.

Donald
 
Thanks to all that replied today. I have been reading and reading and watching at the range for awhile. All of that information gave me overload. Opinions on what to start out with are all over the map. I had taken Rick's suggestion and hung out while people are shooting but the crowd where I go is not real outgoing. Seem like nice folks though.

I got more out of your replies than all the rooting around I had done. I had completely missed the barrel life issue. I read in more than on place that a barrel was good for beaucoup rounds. I think I just read too many accounts by guys that seldom changed barrels. Maybe they just got used to dancing with who they brung to the dance. Goodgrouper and Mike cleared that one up for me.

Thanks for the invite Marty. I will look you up at Visalia. Just a two hour trip from here. I'm looking froward to meeting you and trying to steal that drop port from you ;-) jo191145 has one also and it sounds like he is thrilled with it. They fall right out of the stock? What a great idea. No dinged brass, no distraction.

I did not intend to make 'the' newbie mistake and ask someone to come up with something I could search for myself so I hope alinwa will forgive me. I'm not real good at the 'link' stuff and there are only about 3 or 4 candidates in the classifieds. I just figured you guys checked there once in a while. One of the candidates was a Viper drop port but it has been sold ;-(

I think I will just dig up another coffee can and buy the newest, freshest rig I can afford. I was getting lost in the weeds. I forgot the buy once, cry once rule. If I just squeeze in on the bottom rung I will just add to the worry list. I need to pick one up that leaves no doubt. The down side to that is that I won't be able to blame the rifle ;-) Maybe someone at Visalia will have just what I need and will be willing to part with it.

Thanks again for all your helpful replies.

Dave
 
new guy needs a hand..............

I am brand new to benchrest also and have not purchased anything ...yet! I have attended several shoots at WWCCA. I have a mentor who has been very helpful. He along with others there have made suggestions like purchase USED and if you need to rebarrel the action if necessary. Bat actions were strongly recommeded, chambered in 6PPC (200yd or less) if you shoot for score, and 30BR if shooting group (agg). Kreiger barrels are excellent and our gunsmith that was highly recommeded was Dwight Scott in Michigan area. That is not to say that others are any less better. It has been told to me time and time again to decide what type of class you want to shoot in and do NOT try and re-invent the wheel....use what works....and focus on reading the wind and practice....A LOT!:D
 
canis lupus said:
... chambered in 6PPC (200yd or less) if you shoot for score, and 30BR if shooting group (agg). ....A LOT!:D
Click to expand...

Actually, it's the other way around, 6 PPC if you shoot for group and 30 BR if shooting for score. Although it looks like there may be going to be a lot more 30's shot for group this year in the Gulf Coast region from what some other posts on the board are showing than what has been in the past.
 
I think I will just dig up another coffee can and buy the newest, freshest rig I can afford. I was getting lost in the weeds. I forgot the buy once, cry once rule
Click to expand...
Well yes, and no. There are a lot of newbees replying to your post, and a couple of experienced people. Reread Mike Bryant's post (he is a professional benchrest-level gunsmith, by the way).

There is nothing wrong with a new drop-port. What Jerry Stiller makes is first-class, and is also a first-class value. And yes, I have one, and several BATs, and a Panda. But as Mike said, there is no magic there or anywhere else. After a lot of different actions and 15 years, my favorite action for point-blank BR is the Panda, my favorite for long-range BR the BATs.

But that's just me, the only intended advise is that "what's best" can only be answered over time, for an individual, when they have come to shoot a certain way and understand how they shoot best.

There is one thing I'd look for in a used rifle: A rifle has won a couple of big matches. It likely doesn't have any action problems. If it does, they are probably easy to fix. Those can be the devil to diagnose, and can crop up even on a new action. Of course, as Mike said, things can happen to an action; if possible, have a benchrest gunsmith look over a rifle before you buy it. Yes, I know it isn't always possible.

Another idea is to buy a rifle from someone who shoots at a club you shoot at, and is willing to mentor you a bit. If they're going to mentor you, they are also going to have to shoot that rifle & show you what it can do. It will be both humbling and reassuring.

Welcome
 
You are probably right Charles. Like Mike indicated; there is nothing wrong with the tried and true. I know new isn't always better....I was about to use the word 'change' but I am up to here with that lately ;-)

I was thinking of buying almost new just to cut down on the variables. I don't trust myself to spot minor wear or galling. I have been shooting factory stuff so I'm thinking I really don't know what good is. I might miss something that would be obvious to you experienced folk. That could get expensive. Buying nearly new is no lock either I guess. It could be a heavily campaigned rifle that looks okay to my untrained eye.

I wish there was a rental rack at the range like they have at golf clubs where you can try out a new stick out for a few hours ;-)

I'm leaaaaaaaning towards the Black Widow Mr. Harren has listed in the classifieds. One middle aged barrel and one pre teen Krieger. Pricey, but it is a beautiful rifle. Not flashy, just efficient looking. He is quite the shooter and smith. If he says it will compete I'm good with that.

I have enjoyed this thread and really appreciate when the experienced guys take the time to try and point the new guys in the right direction. I'm happy that some of the guys that have been where I am have have chimed in here or pm'd and pointed out some of the pot holes to avoid or told me where to get more reading material.

I'm having fun and I haven't even pulled...oops...I mean touched that 2 oz. trigger yet.

Thanks again,
Dave
 
DMorgan said:
I'm leaaaaaaaning towards the Black Widow Mr. Harren has listed in the classifieds. One middle aged barrel and one pre teen Krieger. Pricey, but it is a beautiful rifle. Not flashy, just efficient looking. He is quite the shooter and smith. If he says it will compete I'm good with that.
Click to expand...


Could be a good shooting rifle.

But know that 80 percent of all competition BR rifles for right hand shooters are RB/LP, right hand bolt/left port configurations, due to ease of loading and extraction for beginning competitors.

Where this becomes important, is that your first BR rifle pretty much locks you into a certain style of shooting, and becomes very difficult to change. If you buy a RB/RP, right hand bolt/right port configuration, you pretty much lock yourself into the smaller 20 percent of the action market for the future and the subsequent lower resale value.

Both port configurations can be made to shoot equally well, but just be aware that you need to investigate this port configuration preference by reading about it and discussing it with others, and understanding the various dozen or so little details to competitive benchrest shooting that are affected by the different port configurations. This is kind of like the situation for professional tennis players, once a decision is made to use a one or two hand backhand, it is very difficult to change.

Also, there was a Farley locking lug issue last year, research this issue before buying any Farleys and make sure that the particular rifle that you are buying does not have any problems in this area, most likely should not as the manufacture went to great lengths to straighten things out, but better to be safe than sorry.

PS............this is the type of a situation where an experienced mentor, in your immediate area, can be invaluable in explainning all the small details that go into this in-depth game..................Don
 
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6ppc....30Br

Sorry about the mix up Mike...I'm new at this also?:cool:
 
As one that has gone down all the roads related to br rifles - Shoot several different actions and configirations. Shooters, If you show up earlier at a shoot, will at least let you look thier rigs over and provide you insight as to pros and cons of that action and configuration. When you make your mind up contact several rifle builders with good reps, billy stevens for example, and even discuss with jim kelbley the building of one you want. There may be a wait but you will be surprised at how little more it will cost to go new versus used that you wind up restocking or even not liking.
 
Find a mentor

Dave. I suggest you keep visiting with folks, but most important find a mentor who has some Hall of Fame points (for the shooting) and gunsmith experience for everything else. Need not be the same person, but one can lead you to the other. Benchrest is such a gear intensive sport, that the rifle is just half the battle, but in the end the best shooters still win. Just watch Tony Boyer with an old RB/RP action, or Bruno or O'cock with a basic non-adjustable front rest squeezing rear bags to win all the time. But again, the rifle action is just the beginning. Stock style, scope (and mounts), rest, bags, table set up, reloading dies, powder measuring system (throw or scale, most throw) neck turner, reamer chamber specs (neck & lead) bullet, powder, and the list goes on. Again, find a mentor at the range where you will practice, compete and learn. Regards, Chuck
 
Thanks for the additional information. What Don wrote about RBLP vs. RBRP gave me something new to think about. A RBLP choice does help thin out the herd a little though. It does sound logical to work both sides. I can see where it would be hard to change once you locked yourself into one way of doing things. Hard enough to learn once let alone twice...

I can read my butt off and work through a thousand BRC posts online and I will never pick up enough to make a good decision regarding what is right for me. Don and Jim pretty well nailed that with their suggestions about going to ranges and matches and finding someone that might want to share some wisdom.

That will beat sitting in front of the computer or sticking my nose in a book to figure out what is best for me. I will be going to Visalia next week and I hope to meet up with two gents that are going to compete there. They have been kind enough to offer to share some of what they know based on their experience getting started in BR. I'm looking forward to going. I hope the weather is decent.

Thanks again for pointing out all the things new shooters should consider before they make hardware decisions. Very helpful!

Dave
 
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